110,600 Iraqis dead since 2003

[MRG]

Sorry if this is a repost.

BAGHDAD – Iraq's government has recorded 87,215 of its citizens killed since 2005 in violence ranging from catastrophic bombings to execution-style slayings, according to government statistics obtained by The Associated Press that break open one of the most closely guarded secrets of the war.

Combined with tallies based on hospital sources and media reports since the beginning of the war and an in-depth review of available evidence by The Associated Press, the figures show that more than 110,600 Iraqis have died in violence since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

The number is a minimum count of violent deaths. The official who provided the data to the AP, on condition of anonymity because of its sensitivity, estimated the actual number of deaths at 10 to 20 percent higher because of thousands who are still missing and civilians who were buried in the chaos of war without official records.

The Health Ministry has tallied death certificates since 2005, and late that year the United Nations began using them — along with hospital and morgue figures — to publicly release casualty counts. But by early 2007, when sectarian violence was putting political pressure on the U.S. and Iraqi governments, the Iraqi numbers disappeared. The United Nations "repeatedly asked for that cooperation" to resume but never received a response, U.N. associate spokesman Farhan Haq said Thursday.

The data obtained by the AP measure only violent deaths — people killed in attacks such as the shootings, bombings, mortar attacks and beheadings that have ravaged Iraq. It excluded indirect factors such as damage to infrastructure, health care and stress that caused thousands more to die.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090424/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_death_toll

-MRG

 

[Raziaar]

People will comfort themselves by saying they were all terrorists... but that's of course not true, by a long shot.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

The figure is better than i was expecting.

 

[Escaep]

A far cry from the 1,000,000 lots of people still believe.

 

[Eejit]

Not really. This is the figure for deaths cause directly by the war, bombs, shootings and the like.

The 1 million figure compared the death rate before the invasion in Iraq to that since and worked out the total excess deaths due to the war - this will include deaths due to destruction of infrastructure such as lack of water, lack of medicine or doctors, increased disease from destruction of sewers etc.

 

[Raziaar]

Still, 100 thousand people is a ****ing LOT of loss of life.

 

[CptStern]

grains of salt

Experts said the count constitutes an important baseline, albeit an incomplete one. Richard Brennan, who has done mortality research in Congo and Kosovo, said it is likely a "gross underestimate" because many deaths go unrecorded in war zones.

The Iraqi Body Count numbers are likely even more incomplete, given that many killings occurred in incidents journalists were unaware of or in inaccessible areas.

iraqibodycount was always seen as a baseline

 

[kathaksung]

The number is much higher according to non-government sponsered organization.

Epidemiologist's study says the number of war-related deaths in Iraq is 20 times the U.S. government's estimate

Jonathan Woodward
Vancouver Sun

Lafta, with British and American researchers, made headlines in 2006 with a study published in the British medical journal Lancet that estimated war-related deaths in Iraq totalled more than 600,000 -- some 20 times the American government's estimate.

Since that study was published, Lafta has tried twice to go to the University of Washington in Seattle to talk about his findings. The first time, in April, the American government would not grant him a visa.
A week later, SFU offered to let him speak on its campus and he obtained a Canadian visa, but a British official in Jordan refused to grant him a transit visa to change planes in London.

Last week, Lafta finally boarded a direct flight from Amman, Jordan, to Montreal to avoid going through the U.S. or Britain, the two countries leading the war effort. Today at 7 p.m., he will talk about how he conducted his research into war-related deaths as well as a new project -- looking at an alarming rise in deaths related to childhood leukemia in Basra, Iraq -- to an audience at SFU's Morris J. Wosk Centre for Dialogue.

Lafta says he has to drive on back roads in the early-morning hours, avoiding bomb-strewn highways and armed men at checkpoints, to get from his Baghdad office to Basra, in southern Iraq, where he does his research.

The killings are a side effect of the anarchy of war, he said. There are other devastating effects, from a lack of clean drinking water to the fact that many doctors have fled the country.

For the Lancet study, research teams went door to door to survey the populace. When their sample was extrapolated to the entire country, they came up with 654,965 Iraqis dead, or about 2.5 per cent of the population, 10 times higher than most estimates, and 20 times higher than the number the U.S. government uses. It's about 66 times higher than the number of deaths the average American believes have occurred, according to a recent survey: 9,800.

Lafta says he is not anti-American, but a "neutral researcher."
He described the Lancet study as the most complete available. "My numbers are scientific. Theirs [Americans' numbers] are politics," he said.

http://groups.msn.com/CurrentEvents...ssage=794333&LastModified=4675632041388892417

Iraq's Shocking Human Toll: About 1 Million Killed, 4.5 Million Displaced, 1-2 Million Widows, 5 Million Orphans

By John Tirman , The Nation <http://www.thenation.com>.
Posted February 2, 2009
......So we have, at present, between 800,000 and 1.3 million "excess deaths" as we approach the six-year anniversary of this war.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/1...laced,_1-2_million_widows,_5_million_orphans/

 

[Warped]

I always went by the iraqbodycount site but this is still disturbing. if the Iraqi's really wanted "freedom" they would have done it themselves. i remember watching video of what life was like before the invasion and it looked pretty normal from all the videos i've seen. also could that childhood leukemia be from all the uranium dipped bullets we use during war and all the chemicals we've used during our operations?? i can only imagine that we dumped our toxic waste there instead of the usual Mexico

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Yeah, above post.

If there was an overwhelming undeniable yearning for freedom and democracy in Iraq there would have been a huge uprising. There has to have been! Life was probably pretty much...ok...for the average person in Iraq Pre-GeorgeW Invasion.

Oh well. Shit happens.

 

[Warped]

Yeah, above post.

If there was an overwhelming undeniable yearning for freedom and democracy in Iraq there would have been a huge uprising. There has to have been! Life was probably pretty much...ok...for the average person in Iraq Pre-GeorgeW Invasion.

Oh well. Shit happens.

i can see if lets say George Bush said, "hey theres more people dying right now in Darfur but I'm a ****ing shithead and my daddy was president and I need to continue his legacy blah blah blah 9-11"

countries should have the freedom to say, "no we don't need your ****ed up/half assed wars USA"
-vietnam, korea, iraq, afghanistan, pakistan, etc"

we have started dozens of wars that we never finished and were done purely for destruction of a countries ability to sustain itself properly. also if we can't do it militarily we'll do it economically or agriculturally (ex Somalia's ability to fish in polluted waters)---even though the "Europeans" dumped toxic waste off their waters for over 5+ years.

 

[Solaris]

Well it's not a competition, but Sadam killed over 180,000 Kurds.

You think we should allowed him to stay in power? How can you possibly believe that?
If he restarted his genocidal campaign how would you look his victims in the face and tell them you knew how evil Sadam was and had the choice to get rid of him, but did nothing.

When Iraq is the subject, I think this 9minute argument by Christopher Hitchens says everything that needs to be said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iYRkrBD3eg&feature=related

 

[gFrohman]

I sympathize, but do the ends really justify the means in this case? Is all the lying and misinformation suddenly justified by the end result?

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

If the invasion was ever justified, I think it was in the First Gulf War. Saddam started that war and there actually was an uprising against him, encouraged by Bush Senior. He said that 'we' would support them against Saddam, but it never happened.

 

[CptStern]

yes they promised the kurds they'd help. instead they watched from the sidelines while they were butchered

the first gulf war was injust as well. how many kuwaiti lives were extinguished by madman saddam?

unknown Kuwaiti casualties, but at least 605 missing

The exact number of Iraqi combat casualties is unknown, but known to be heavy. Immediate estimates said up to 100,000 Iraqis were killed. Some now estimate that Iraq sustained between 20,000 and 35,000 fatalities. However other figures still maintain fatalities as high as 200,000

and that's not even counting the over a million deaths after the war from diseases related to a break down in health and sanitation caused by coalition bombing and deliberately targeted by US and british air force


solaris, remember this:

You don't honestly believe it was better under Saddam do you?

Yes, there was a good healthcare system, that was free to everyone, schools were good, good water suppllies ect.

how about this?

And I think only real idiots would "still" think the US went there to "save the poor iraqi's from evil saddam"...

Half of Britian and America....

God help us all.

or this?

If you were helping Iraq why are so many of them opposing you? You have stolen there oil.

The Iraqi people are less free now than they were before.

Dying in the millions? Do you mean the millions who died under the sanctions? Or the 22563 who died in the war (civillians btw).
Yes you've really done the right thing.

or this:

May I point out that the USA put saddam in power, and supported his war oniran, in order to gain allies in the middle east.

So don't go telling the anti war crowd that the evil sudam would still be in power if the war wasnt ahead, becuase you [the USA] put him their. You are not the world police and have no right to interfere in other contries like that.

or this?

Thats what create theese terrorists, not a hatred of freedom, or an evil religion. In their eyes thoose troops are shooting their people, and their trying to get their country back. The Coalition should pull out and not risk the lives of our troops and civillians alike.

or this:

Ye sure, terrorists hate freedom. IMO and theres the real enemy of freedom IS the USA.

or this, on the news that 12 iraqi insurgents were killed:

Great 12 untrained liberation fighters were killed.
Woo Imperialsm.

flip flop much?

 

[Solaris]

Stern, it's no secret that I changed my mind on the issue. I just decided that fighting fascism was more important to me than saving face and so I admitted that I was wrong on the Iraq issue.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the main event:

Solaris V Solaris

Round 1

Yes, there was a good healthcare system, that was free to everyone, schools were good, good water suppllies ect.

Solaris, I accept that the healthcare system under Saddam was better than the few years after invasion. It was very hard to stabilise Iraq, the insurgents wern't fighting us for better healthcare, had they stopped blowing up power lines, attacking water treatment facilities and the such we would have been able to get the health system sorted out quicker.

You paint the picture that life was all cosy under Saddam? This isn't true, the country was closed to collapse, sanctions were stopping supplies getting in whilst Saddam used the profits he made from food for oil to build new palaces throughout the country.

What about the 180,000+ Kurdish civilians murdered by Saddam and Chemical Ali?
Should we have left him alone, to continue his genocidal ambitions?

Round 2

If you were helping Iraq why are so many of them opposing you? You have stolen there oil.

The Iraqi people are less free now than they were before.

Dying in the millions? Do you mean the millions who died under the sanctions? Or the 22563 who died in the war (civillians btw).
Yes you've really done the right thing.

The problem is Solaris that there are alot of Iraqi's who supported Saddam or support the creation of an Islamic Caliphate, these people are sworn enemies of democracy and human rights. We have to fight these people.

And what do you mean, we've stolen their oil? Sure some of it's been privatised however had the left supported the invasion and helped rebuild Iraq maybe we would have been able to put enough pressure on Bush to not insist that their oil be privatised. However, Iraq makes a lot of money from it still.

The Iraqi people are less free now? They have a democratic government, they could elect whoever they want to. It's true a lot of Iraqis are scared to vote. So sometimes our soldiers have to put themselves between suicide bombers and queues for the ballot box. Is that something to be ashamed about?

I really don't think so. I don't think there is a more real and direct example of why we are in Iraq than our soldiers protecting voting booths from Islamo-fascists who want to take power through force.

Round 3

May I point out that the USA put saddam in power, and supported his war oniran, in order to gain allies in the middle east.

So don't go telling the anti war crowd that the evil sudam would still be in power if the war wasnt ahead, becuase you [the USA] put him their. You are not the world police and have no right to interfere in other contries like that.

If we are responcable for where Saddam was, does that not increase our responcability ten-fold to remove him?

Round 4

Thats what create theese terrorists, not a hatred of freedom, or an evil religion. In their eyes thoose troops are shooting their people, and their trying to get their country back. The Coalition should pull out and not risk the lives of our troops and civillians alike.

That's not true; I almost wish it was. But out enemy is much more evil than that. Why do you think they fly planes into buildings, blow up Mosques and city centres aiming to maximise civilian causalities?

I put to you Solaris that there is nothing that could be inflicted on you, or a position an atheist with your values could find yourself, where the tactics and crimes they are committing would be an ethical and just response.


It's a Knockout

 

[Mr Stabby]

You've gone from one extreme to another.

 

[CptStern]

yes and in both cases he doesnt have a clue as to what he's talking about ...more so now