5 years from September 11, stock take.

[MjM]

So what are we thinking 5 years on?

The war on terror, does the fact no further attacks on the USA, yet attacks on Bali, Spain and London mean the USA has succeeded in its goal, defending the USA, as i believe Cheney has recently remarked?

As a New Zealander, I personally do not think the west is any safer from terrorist threats. There needs to be a dramatic change in the way we interact with the middle-east, anyone in the third world imo, a way forward that deals with other countries problems, not the wests problem of insecurity.

I heard a great interview, which basically said the way the USA and its international partners have behaved (belligerently), has played right into the hands of bin Laden in terms of al Qaeda following.

As well, the west has failed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and needs to reassess how we are going to fix these nations.

Anyway i am kinda pessimistic about the current state of affairs, but i tend to hope that such a climate will precipitate a political shift and a broader realisation that military force is not capable of providing the protection we seek. I think protection will only arise through cooperation and the alleviation of perceived injustices that the west perpetrates in other parts of the world.

 

[hari66]

So what are we thinking 5 years on?

Osama still alive.

A new and open breeding ground for terrorists in Iraq.

Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan.

Bush re-elected.

Multiple bombings all over the world.
If anything,things have become worse.

 

[gick]

Osama still alive.

A new and open breeding ground for terrorists in Iraq.

Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan.

Bush re-elected.

Multiple bombings all over the world.
If anything,things have become worse.

Sadly true.

Before 9/11 there was a lot of hatred for the west abroad with terrorists in training, yadda yadda yadda. But after all these bullshit wars, there are now thousands of pissed of people within our own borders who are willing to turn to terrorism.

Cheers Tony, me and my family and friends are now personally at risk of getting blown to shit because you are a subservient ****wit. Yay.

 

[bliink]

I feel less safe than before. Australia has become a bigger target to terrorists (and named as such by militant groups) because we had to follow America into Iraq and Afghanistan.

We spend way more money now on counter-terrorism than we used to, taking funds from education (the one thing that might actually fight terrorists most effectively) and things such as the health system (that more people rely on to stay alive than the SWAT teams)

Many more are killed by car accidents than terrorists, our "way of life" is more threatened by rising illiteracy and a weakening economy.

And not only do I need to worry about terrorists attacking me, I need to watch out for my own government, and what crazy sedition laws, or detention periods they're going to implement next.

The war on terror was fought and lost during September '01.
The terrorists already won.

 

[Tr0n]

Osama still alive.

A new and open breeding ground for terrorists in Iraq.

Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan.

Bush re-elected.

Multiple bombings all over the world.
If anything,things have become worse.

Same.

 

[The Brick]

The thing I still hate the most is the people that believe Loose Change and spread his crap to other people. Even on css I regularly see people go like: "Omg who here has seen loose change?" then I go: "me, and it's a pile of crap" "no you get shown the truth" "google for 'screw loose change' and think again" "no it's the thruth, EVERYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN LOOSE CHANGE GO SEE IT NOW IT'S THE TRUTH".


I feel so bad for those people.

And what hari66 said.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Same here, our puny country felt the need to go wage war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We budet cut on education and social services, so we can send an extra 1500 soldiers to afghanistan etc etc.
W..T..F .. im still waiting for an attack here

 

[gick]

Same here, our puny country felt the need to go wage war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We budet cut on education and social services, so we can send an extra 1500 soldiers to afghanistan etc etc.
W..T..F .. im still waiting for an attack here

Are you in Holland?

 

[Ome_Vince]

yup

 

[Sulkdodds]

The world has become more turbulent due to everybody being punk-ass bitches.

 

[blck_prod]

The situation certainly got worse...

More black and white ideology on both sides. And you must pick a side < What's with that anyway??? I like being grey...

Another thing that bothers me with 9/11 is that I see all these documentaries ...these tear-jerkers... About how sad it is to loose a relative and "where did we deserve this...we are so gooood and tolerant, we are multicultural..., we are hero's , Why do people hate us??"
Don't you know allready?? You had 5 years to think about it...but no, it cannot be you, you rightous people, with your true one God and your divine president...

Why don't I see a documentary about an Iraqi or afghan-woman who morns for her son, killed, locked-up and tortured or just plain missing? How many people got killed in 9/11...How many other innocents got killed afterwards??? A lot more...I think a lot of the victims of 9/11 would be ashamed to know that so many got killed in their name and legacy...

Things will continue to go worse untill everybody sees that there's no good and evil. There's just other opinions and cultures...If we can respect this and act upon this we'll be fine otherwise we -as humanity- or screwed.

 

[MjM]

The thing I still hate the most is the people that believe Loose Change and spread his crap to other people. Even on css I regularly see people go like: "Omg who here has seen loose change?" then I go: "me, and it's a pile of crap" "no you get shown the truth" "google for 'screw loose change' and think again" "no it's the thruth, EVERYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN LOOSE CHANGE GO SEE IT NOW IT'S THE TRUTH".


I feel so bad for those people.

And what hari66 said.

The planned demolition thing, yea total BS. But the pentagon strike does seem pretty bizzare if you ask me, like yea wouldnt the engines punch holes as well? That confuses me on an purely intuitive level.

 

[mirage4]

Same here, our puny country felt the need to go wage war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We budet cut on education and social services, so we can send an extra 1500 soldiers to afghanistan etc etc.
W..T..F .. im still waiting for an attack here

Yeah, the budget cut on education really sucks i'm sitting more at home than that i go to school

 

[gick]

But the pentagon strike does seem pretty bizzare if you ask me, like yea wouldnt the engines punch holes as well? That confuses me on an purely intuitive level.

Hopefully this should answer any questions you may have.

 

[15357]

I feel just as safe, if not safer than before; every time I go to Seoul, I see an APC with special troops from the NPA. And of course, to prevent another disastor in the subways, military police patrol the underground. So, meh.

 

[blck_prod]

Hopefully this should answer any questions you may have.

And hopefully this makes you doubt again

Or all the articles:
http://www.voltairenet.org/mot37.html?lang=en

Or play a game

And this really makes me mad.
American Hero's are fired and degraded from the military for being critical towards the official 9/11 story...They even tried to assasinate him.
Makes it all stink more, doesn't it???

How can you Americans still trust your government? Maybe time to use the first amandment and the right to carry weapons? No, no just kidding...

But be aware, something stinks...

And I know if it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon...where's Flight 77 then???

 

[VictimOfScience]

Worse? I dunno. We (or someone like us) will always be doing something to piss someone off. Its gone on for years and there is quite simply no way to stop it. Live your life, have fun, always continue to learn and push yourself...but be vigilant!!! :E

 

[Warbie]

The situation certainly got worse...

More black and white ideology on both sides. And you must pick a side < What's with that anyway??? I like being grey...

Another thing that bothers me with 9/11 is that I see all these documentaries ...these tear-jerkers... About how sad it is to loose a relative and "where did we deserve this...we are so gooood and tolerant, we are multicultural..., we are hero's , Why do people hate us??"
Don't you know allready?? You had 5 years to think about it...but no, it cannot be you, you rightous people, with your true one God and your divine president...

Why don't I see a documentary about an Iraqi or afghan-woman who morns for her son, killed, locked-up and tortured or just plain missing? How many people got killed in 9/11...How many other innocents got killed afterwards??? A lot more...I think a lot of the victims of 9/11 would be ashamed to know that so many got killed in their name and legacy...

Things will continue to go worse untill everybody sees that there's no good and evil. There's just other opinions and cultures...If we can respect this and act upon this we'll be fine otherwise we -as humanity- or screwed.

I tend to agree. Without intending to sound unsympathetic, far too much attention that has been focussed on 9/11. For decades there have been atrocities across the world of a far greater scale - 10000's starving to death in Ethiopia, genocide in Bosnia, the tsunami in '04 etc etc - yet these receive a fraction of the coverage. As prod points out, the number of innocents to die as a result of conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq completely dwarves those who died in the towers.

When I think of all the money that has been spent on these wars, all the misery and grief, and the fact that as a result we appear to be worse off than before it all started, it makes me feel physciall ill. All the good that could have been done, all the money that could have been used for far better causes ...

I couldn't believe it when logging onto a forum yesterday (ocuk) to find it shut for the day in memory of 9/11. Even Eastenders (mindless Brithish soap) had an episode seemingly dedicated to the tradegy - melodramatic to the extreme and, sadly, rather fitting.

Feel sorry for the victims and their families, be disgusted with the evil people that caused it, but we need to keep some perspective here.

 

[blck_prod]

ThanX for the reply...

Feel sorry for the victims and their families, be disgusted with the evil people that caused it, but we need to keep some perspective here.

It's true...9/11 was terrible and I cannot imagine what it could have been like to be trapped in there or have some relative upthere...That's real terror indeed

But we must find out the truth about 9/11...the truth and nothing else.
For all the people that died that day.
I doesn't feel like we know the truth now....(see my previous post)

Why isn't an ignoration procedure started against Bush? All the reasons he claimed to attack Iraq are false...Clinton got one for having some affair with an interim.
So???
And the fact that Mr President uses 9/11 to defend his Iraq-campaign is really really low... Power-hunger people don't have emotions, it has been proven, again...

I really really don't trust them

 

[Kangy]

You conspiracy nuts are stupid in the way you point your fingers.

 

[kirovman]

What happened to New Orleans was far worse than New York on the human scale of things.

 

[CptStern]

the conspiracy theorists are stupid because they ignore the real conspiracy that's right before their eyes

the bush admin knew there were no wmd in iraq

that's it! no freakin drone airplane slamming into explosive laden buildings no missles disguised as airplanes doing fancy manuevers before they slam into the sides of heavily fortified walls ..why go for the rediculous when the real thing is right before their eyes?

 

[clarky003]

I agree, it's the most obvious and undeniable omission. It's not even plausable to say that they didn't know given the dossier that was released, they clearly wanted it to happen anyway but have blatantly lied and needlessly scared people to get the support for it.

 

[Absinthe]

I don't feel any safer, but then I also don't feel any less safe. 9/11, for all its death and destruction, did not alter the way I go about my life.
My concern is not with my safety, but the safety of other nations and people that have been dragged into our pathetic joke of a War on Terror. My ire with the administration - an administration that singlehandedly turned worldwide sympathy into scorn - is one of principle. I don't like being lied to, I don't like being a world police force, I don't like half-assedness, and I don't like sending soldiers to die for vague, misleading, amorphous notions of liberty, freedom, WMDs, or whatever retroactive justifcation that needs to be be pulled out of the asshole.

The thing I still hate the most is the people that believe Loose Change and spread his crap to other people. Even on css I regularly see people go like: "Omg who here has seen loose change?" then I go: "me, and it's a pile of crap" "no you get shown the truth" "google for 'screw loose change' and think again" "no it's the thruth, EVERYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN LOOSE CHANGE GO SEE IT NOW IT'S THE TRUTH".


I feel so bad for those people.

Tell me about it. Somebody in my WoW guild just last night was blabbering on about some Youtube video about how 9/11 was a conspiracy. I told him he was full of shit, but he beckoned that I watch it because it would show me the "truth", despite the fact I've probably watched enough of this kind of crap to know it's all bull. Sure enough, he posts it on the forum and it's Loose Change.

I gave him links to Screw Loose Change, 911 Myths, and a couple other sites, hoping the problem would sort itself out. *Sigh*

 

[Black_Wolf]

I agree, it's the most obvious and undeniable omission. It's not even plausable to say that they didn't know given the dossier that was released, they clearly wanted it to happen anyway but have blatantly lied and needlessly scared people to get the support for it.

And you a dude on the Internet dare to say things like "they wanted it to happend"......jeez you make me sick.

 

[blck_prod]

the conspiracy theorists are stupid because they ignore the real conspiracy that's right before their eyes

the bush admin knew there were no wmd in iraq

that's it! no freakin drone airplane slamming into explosive laden buildings no missles disguised as airplanes doing fancy manuevers before they slam into the sides of heavily fortified walls ..why go for the rediculous when the real thing is right before their eyes?

Okay no cover-up, then why is he still in office???

I mean the invasion of Iraq is just one of the things.
New Orleans, Torture (secret) prisons, Economic situation, Social situation...
Lies and lots of lies about everything...
Hell if you lie about some intern you once fooled with then they start op the ignauration procedure. But if you use the death of 3000 inocent people to invade a country for false reasons and kill another 30000 then that's Okay???

I guess democracy died in the states with the collapse of the Twin
towers...or was it before?


And I do think they knew about it but let it happen because when people are afraid they cannot think rationally

 

[clarky003]

And you a dude on the Internet dare to say things like "they wanted it to happend"......jeez you make me sick.

The that fact that it did happen not only benifited the bush administrations policey for changes and mistreatment of constitutional rights (the patriot act and wire tapping) but also, haliburton, the US military industrial complex, and the ability to build a new oil pipeline from the caspean sea with the military presence in Afghanistan, all of this largely benifits the US economy in general and as you can imagine is highly desireable for these people.

Understand that greed is a major player and so is the economy.

Ask yourself if you know these people, then positively say that they didn't want the war or any of this to happen.

Your trust and gullability and lack of understanding of what's important to people in persuit of power in this world is probably generated from not taking these issues into account.

 

[Black_Wolf]

yes it did benefit the Bush Admin.but that doesnt mean they wanted itt to happen.

 

[Gunner]

the conspiracy theorists are stupid because they ignore the real conspiracy that's right before their eyes

the bush admin knew there were no wmd in iraq

that's it! no freakin drone airplane slamming into explosive laden buildings no missles disguised as airplanes doing fancy manuevers before they slam into the sides of heavily fortified walls ..why go for the rediculous when the real thing is right before their eyes?

Meh WMD or not, IMO they did a good thing taking Saddam; they just messed up the reconstruction effort.

I just wish they "liberate" Iran, at least there won't be a civil war once the current regime goes down.

 

[clarky003]

yes it did benefit the Bush Admin.but that doesnt mean they wanted itt to happen.

Then I suggest you read the dossier between Bush and Blair that was released where they were planning on flying spy planes into Iraqi airspace low enough to purposefully provoke retaliation in order to gain justification for war on Iraq.

You can say for certain that they wanted to invade Iraq even though they knew there were no wmds.

 

[Warbie]

I just wish they "liberate" Iran, at least there won't be a civil war once the current regime goes down.

After the complete cock up in Iraq and Afghanistan do you really think that's a good idea?

 

[CptStern]

Meh WMD or not, IMO they did a good thing taking Saddam; they just messed up the reconstruction effort.

yet they were more than glad to call him "friend" and ally when he was committing his worst atrocities

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

I just wish they "liberate" Iran, at least there won't be a civil war once the current regime goes down.

you mean how they "liberated" the democratically elected secular government of iran back in 1953?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB126/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

 

[Gunner]

Then I suggest you read the dossier between Bush and Blair that was released where they were planning on flying spy planes into Iraqi airspace low enough to purposefully provoke retaliation in order to gain justification for war on Iraq.

You can say for certain that they wanted to invade Iraq even though they knew there were no wmds.

There's a difference between sending an unmanned aerial drone into harm's way and killing three thousand civilians. Saddam's Iraq had to go, one way or the other.

Oh and Stern if you speak to any knowledgeable Iranian, they will tell you that Mossadeq was a dick and an illiterate retard who could barely finish a sentence. I'm glad he was thrown out, the direction he wanted to take would have taken Iran back to the stone age, much like the ayatollahs. Under the Shah, Iran prospered and things were going well. The Shah was a softie however, he should've executed all the mollahs when he had the chance.

 

[CptStern]

why? there are far more dangerous regimes out there ..by that simple logic one could argue that assassinating the president of the US is the only "correct" thing to do

 

[clarky003]

Surely it depends on the circumstances and desire for a particular reaction, either way it's effective and it shows their intent is purposeful.

Instead they chose to perpatrate the wmd lie because it is more effective and less expensive, it also does the best job of scaring the shit out of people who don't know any better.

 

[Gunner]

why? there are far more dangerous regimes out there ..by that simple logic one could argue that assassinating the president of the US is the only "correct" thing to do

Simple logic you say? you lack perspective. I suggest you go live in the middle east for a dozen years.

And you go tell an Iraqi who lost family members to Saddam's secret police that the US is a more dangerous regime. See how he reacts. Go tell someone who had his tongue cut off, that the US is a more dangerous regime.

 

[Warbie]

And you go tell an Iraqi who lost family members to Saddam's secret police that the US is a more dangerous regime. See how he reacts. Go tell someone who had his tongue cut off, that the US is a more dangerous regime.

The difference being it took Saddam a whole lot longer to kill the number of innocent people that the US + sidekicks managed in such a short period. Couple this with the fact Iraq is close to a living hell now, far worse than before the invasion, and I think you'll see why so many people would disagree with you.

The enitre operation has been a total mess.

 

[Absinthe]

His ousting was neither the right time or context. I've often wondered how the US could tolerate (even ally with) the scumbag for so long, but all of a sudden it's imperative to liberate the Iraqi people.

On the whole, the US needs to stop meddling about in other countries' affairs unless we're talking dire circumstances. We've ousted so many governments (quite a few of them democratically elected) and played sides so often that the whole mess just comes back to bite us in the ass.

Isolating the removal of Saddam looks good.
But when you put it back in place and see the aftermath following it, the picture starts looking a lot less pretty.

 

[Gunner]

The difference being it took Saddam a whole lot longer to kill the number of innocent people that the US + sidekicks managed in such a short period. Couple this with the fact Iraq is close to a living hell now, far worse than before the invasion, and I think you'll see why so many people would disagree with you.

The enitre operation has been a total mess.

Yeah as I said previously, it's no secret: they ****ed up the reconstruction and poorly predicted the aftermath of Saddam's removal. But Saddam himself, had to be taken out.

Removing Saddam was the right thing to do, there's no arguing about that. It should have been done sooner. Just like they should have prevented the mollahs from taking control of Iran.

 

[CptStern]

please list the reasons why saddam "had to be taken out" ..specifically when he was at his waekest and not when he was at the height of his power when allied with the west

Simple logic you say? you lack perspective. I suggest you go live in the middle east for a dozen years.

what are you saying? that the entire middle east is a barbaric cesspool? do not the people of rwanda deserve to be saved? or the congo? or ethiopia? or the sudan? they're at the brink of genocide again and NOTHING will be done ..again

And you go tell an Iraqi who lost family members to Saddam's secret police that the US is a more dangerous regime. See how he reacts. Go tell someone who had his tongue cut off, that the US is a more dangerous regime.

and you tell that to the 100,000+ innocents who have died in the 3 short years since the invasion of iraq began. Or how about the people being tortured in gulags across iraq in the name of the west ..isnt that the same thing as what saddam did? at least he had the balls to be an evil bastard instead of pretending to be otherwise