500 Miles Per Gallon

K

kmack

Guest
Ali Naimi, Saudi Arabia's Oil Minister, said that crude oil prices will remain at $40-$50 per barrel throughout 2005. OPEC's official target (this year and the past two) is $25 per barrel. This announcement signals that Saudi Arabia belives that new higher prices are not a momentary thing, they are here to stay (Other oil officials believe the price could hit $75 per barrel this year).

The fact is, we rely too much on petroleum, which comes mostly from the volatile Middle East. Our dependence on petroleum is having adverse environmental and political effects. Fortunalty, we have the capacity to alleviate this problem.

The answer lies in a combination of already existing technology. We have Hybrid cars, as most of you know (and perhaps some own), that run off of the car's battery as well as petroleum. The next step is a Hybrid car that is plugged in at night (or filled up at a station) on electricity. Currently a battery-petroleum hybrid gets 50 Miles Per Gallon, with a plug in, you can get 75 MPG. Ford, Honda, and Toyata currently have battery-hypbrids on the market, DaimlerChrysler will soon introduce a plug-in version.

The other necessary technology is something called "flexible-fuel tanks" (already available in the Mid-West and already in 40% of Brazils new cars). These allow the car to run off of petroleum, ethanol, or methanol (OR most importantly, any combination of the three) . By combining these new technologies, the potential for clean, effecient, non-petroleum reliant cars is at hand.

Let's break it down, combine a Hybrid car with a flexible-fuel tank. Now, for fuel, you use a combination of 15% petroleum and 85% either methanol or ethanol. This gives you 300 Miles per gallon on a battery Hybrid, and 500 MPG on a plug in Hybrid. Now you get the 500 Miles from a gallon of PETROLEUM (which equates to less than 10 gallons of the petroleum-ethanol/methanol blend, still much better than anything we have now.), but what I am trying to do here is reduce the use of Petroleum. It should be noted that ethanol and methanol are much cheaper than gasoline so prices for fuel would drop.

To pump ethanol and methanol, gas stations would have to be upgraded at a cost of $20,000 to $60,000. If the government steps in, tax breaks could be given to these companies. (Alternatively they could initially earn back the money by keeping the fuel costs higher than they pay, then, as they break even, the laws of business will kick in and prices will be lowered to attract cutomers).

These new technologies will empower whole new industries, but unfortunatly, they do not have lobbies in Washington, D.C.. It is surprising the government isn't taking up the initiative because the money spent by the government led to almost all of the technology that makes hybrids possible. (All new naval surface ships are powered by electricity as well as trains and minig equiptment). If the governemnt stepped in, they could accelerate the hybrid plan (mainly through tax-breaks, incentives, targeted mandates and spending) with $12 Billion (what we spend in Iraq in THREE months).

All the changes do not have to happen at a federal level. Think maybe New York City requiring all taxis to be hybrids with flexible-fuel tanks, they could offer incentives to taxi companies and gas stations.

As someone who uses a car for work and classes, anything that lessens cost would be wonderful. The environmental aspects of cleaner burning fuel in cars is also very appealing. Not having to rely on the most volatile region of the world for so much oil would be a welcome change. What do you guys think?
 
*edit* Just did some looking around about ethanol, see my post a few down about fueling stations in the U.S.
 
bah, oil, and any fossil fuel, syntheic or not is still only being used because of the massive buisness established around it.

Ive seen and heard of technologies that could superseed our present crude fuel based energy generation. The only reason we are still at the stage we are at is because the people with the mulitbillion dollar established corporations are the ones in control of what goes down in the world, for protection of their assets and our constant dependance on them.

they have so much power to fling around, they have influence within media circles, government's and weapon manufacturer's. They are able to attempt to keep a lid on the zero point technologies that are arising. Its important to understand that there will come a point where peoples curiosity will allow more to find out about the coming energy revolution. Oil and fossil fuel, or any liquid fuel base will not exist sometime in the next 50 years, if the right people are envolved and the word spreads along with the new science. I believe this so irefuteably (typo?) because of new science and the study's on the electron and its ability to be manipulated, changing the ether's energy output (ether >space fabric).
 
oil prices are all over the place, what can 'oil-less' places do do produce energy?

hydrogen
solar?
oxygen..?
carbon?
 
GhostFox said:
Ethanol is a scam. Do your research.

Yes, obviously a chemical compound is a scam. CH3CH2OH is not real it is a hoax.

How come A mixture of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, E85 is a leading alternative fuel used in the U.S. Over 3.5 million autos run on E85 fuel, and it can be purchased at approximately 200 refueling sites in the U.S. When E85 is not available, these “flexible” fuel vehicles can operate on any blend of ethanol or straight unleaded gasoline. So 3.5 million vehicles are running on a scam?

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/ethanol.html
Thats the US department of energy.

Do your research.
 
If this experimental fusion project is sucessful (although last I heard they were arguing whether to build it in France or Japan), we'll see reactors springing up everywhere, with a virtually limitless and highly availible energy source.

If all goes well, expect to see this in the next 30 or 40 years.

More info:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4270297.stm
http://www.iter.org/
http://www.itercad.org/
http://www.pref.aomori.jp/iter/index.html
http://www.jet.efda.org/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3993339.stm
 
So 3.5 million vehicles are running on a scam?

Check all of your figures. It causes more pollution and takes more energy to produce/transport all that ethanol then it saves as an additive. So while in of itself it is an effective additive, the "save oil, save the planet" campaign attached to it is a scam. You are more enviromentally friendly and will use less energy (see oil) if you use straight gasoline.
 
GhostFox said:
Check all of your figures. It causes more pollution and takes more energy to produce/transport all that ethanol then it saves as an additive. So while in of itself it is an effective additive, the "save oil, save the planet" campaign attached to it is a scam. You are more enviromentally friendly and will use less energy (see oil) if you use straight gasoline.

The point of my first post, is to take away from our dependence on OIL Please read my first post. But since you said that here is some more research you obviously didn't do.


Ethanol production is extremely energy efficient, with a positive energy balance of 125%, compared to 85% for gasoline.

and, if that's not enough,

Air pollution can also be reduced by using ethanol. Ethanol is low in reactivity and high in oxygen content, making it an effective tool in reducing ozone pollution. It is also a safe replacement for toxic octane enhancers in gasoline such as benzene, toluene, and xylene.
 
The point of my first post, is to take away from our dependence on OIL. Everything I said is to help take away from our dependence on OIL. Please read my first post.

Yes, and the US could save more oil by not producing ethanol and just using regular gasoline.
 
GhostFox said:
Yes, and the US could save more oil by not producing ethanol and just using regular gasoline.

That is not true, it takes oil to produce ethanol, but it takes less oil in the production (I have already addressed the transpotation aspect in my first post) of ethanol that it does to use straight gasoline, but again, I will humor you.

Have another healthy shot of research:


Remember Methanol? From the first post?
Methanol's physical and chemical characteristics result in several inherent advantages as an automotive fuel. Some methanol benefits include lower emissions, higher performance, and lower risk of flammability than gasoline. In addition, methanol can be manufactured from a variety of carbon-based feedstocks such as natural gas, coal, and biomass (e.g., wood) and the use of methanol would help reduce U.S. dependence on imported petroleum.
 
Kmack, I am not talking about when you burn Ethanol. I know it is cleaner then. But for ethanol you need:

Large machines to harvest the corn. Guess what they run on?
Giant factories to produce the Ethanol product. Guess what they need?
Huge tanker trucks to transport the finished Ethanol to the major petrolium sites. I think they get about 3 feet per gallon.

In the end it's like you are burning 1 gallon of gas just to save 1/2 a gallon later on.
 
Wow, really like the whole 'oil' thing, don't you Ghost... :angel:

Ethanol ain't a fossil fuel. It produces less hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Using it as a mix reduces NO emissions by up to 20 percent, VOC's by 30 percent, benzene and other carcinogens by up to 50 percent and reduces SO2 and other choking PM's.

But that's irrelevant - point is, reducing reliance on middle east oil. Which is good.

EDIT: Read your post above. Why not run the harvesting machines, tankers ( which incidentally would be carrying petrol at 3mpg if not ethanol, so your point there is moot ) on ethanol? :D

Oil is shipped here, right? Guess what the ships run on?

All fuel - petrol, ethanol, whatever - needs to be transported.
 
But that's irrelevant - point is, reducing reliance on middle east oil. Which is good.

I agree 100%, which is why Ethanol is bad.
 
GhostFox said:
Large machines to harvest the corn. Guess what they run on?

Um, in case you didn't notice, we harvest corn for food for people and cattle. The corn is harvested whether its husks are turned to ethanol or not.

GhostFox said:
Giant factories to produce the Ethanol product. Guess what they need?

True, they do need their own fuel.

GhostFox said:
Huge tanker trucks to transport the finished Ethanol to the major petrolium sites. I think they get about 3 feet per gallon.

Actually, the electrically powered trains we already have (see first post) do a lot of the long distance hauling, and as for the trucks that do the hauling, what would they be running on when they carried gasoline around? magic fairy dust? :LOL:
 
GhostFox said:
"But that's irrelevant - point is, reducing reliance on middle east oil. Which is good."

I agree 100%, which is why Ethanol is bad.

So, you are for reliance on middle east oil?
 
Here, real quick I will find you one of the many sources about this.

While the Government's commitment to ethanol has been welcomed by agricultural interests and the ethanol industry, critics question the rationale behind policies that promote ethanol for energy security benefits, often citing that corn ethanol has a negative energy value (NEV) (Pimentel and Ho). That is, the liquid fuel and other energy sources required to grow and convert corn into ethanol are greater than the energy value present in the ethanol fuel.

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_th.htm

This is a report published by the US Dept. of Agriculture.

EDIT: I should point out the tech. advances could make Ethanol a positive fuel, but I haven't seen any data yet that shows that we are anywhere near that point.
 
So, you are for reliance on middle east oil

I am against it, which means I am against Ethanol. As should anyone be who knows the facts.
 
GhostFox said:
Here, real quick I will find you one of the many sources about this.

While the Government's commitment to ethanol has been welcomed by agricultural interests and the ethanol industry, critics question the rationale behind policies that promote ethanol for energy security benefits, often citing that corn ethanol has a negative energy value (NEV) (Pimentel and Ho). That is, the liquid fuel and other energy sources required to grow and convert corn into ethanol are greater than the energy value present in the ethanol fuel.

This is a report published by the US Dept. of Agriculture.

Which is exactly why it is used to subsidize a small portion of gasoline (These cars run on electricity, gasoline, methanol and ethanol, not just ethanol ;) ). And you are still ignoring the methanol. Your argument would work if I was talking about machines that ran on just ethanol, but I am not, you're putting words in my mouth.
 
GhostFox said:
I am against it, which means I am against Ethanol. As should anyone be who knows the facts.

Which facts are these? And what fuel would you prefer?
 
Which facts are these?
The facts that currently Ethanol wastes more oil then it saves. Until it reaches a point where it is a positive fuel, it should only be used in small research groups, not funded as a fuel additive.

And what fuel would you prefer?
Hydrogen of course. It is the only realistic choice for a future not dependant of oil.
 
Your argument would work if I was talking about machines that ran on just ethanol, but I am not, you're putting words in my mouth

No, it always works. The other things don't matter. For every gallon of ethanol produced, more oil then that was used producing it. It doesn't matter if cars use a 1% additive or a 95% additive. They are still wasting more oil then running the car without the Ethanol.
 
GhostFox said:
Hydrogen of course. It is the only realistic choice for a future not dependant of oil.

Well, we finally agree on something. The problem is, hydrogen is too far away, alternative fuel needs to be implemented now, that will spring up the new industries that can research hydrogen. If methanol is used in fuel then it opens the door.

"In addition, methanol can easily be made into hydrogen. Some researchers are currently working to overcome the barriers to using methanol as a hydrogen fuel source. So methanol may potentially be used to create hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future."
 
The problem is, hydrogen is too far away

I think if politicians would stop pouring money into Ethanol to appease eco-nuts, then Hydrogen fuel would be a lot closer to being feasable.
 
GhostFox said:
No, it always works. The other things don't matter. For every gallon of ethanol produced, more oil then that was used producing it. It doesn't matter if cars use a 1% additive or a 95% additive. They are still wasting more oil then running the car without the Ethanol.

You are wrong about the amount of oil used in ethanol production.

The biomass used is harvested with implements that would be used anyways as the biomass is the excess mass of things we are harvesting as it is.

The Transportation of oil is across the ocean on ships that run on, you guessed it oil.

The transportation of ethanol (or the biomass) is conducted on electric railways for long journeys. Conversly the trucks that transport it (why can they not run on the ethanol?) are going to be used to transport the gasoline from the shipping ports.

Factories which produce ethanol require petroleum, but if you are familiar with the process it is not a great deal of it.
 
GhostFox said:
I think if politicians would stop pouring money into Ethanol to appease eco-nuts, then Hydrogen fuel would be a lot closer to being feasable.
what about methanol...
They will be pouring funding into it to get the hybrid cars going then they will have more money in methanol reasearch to go for hydrogen cells.

"In addition, methanol can easily be made into hydrogen. Some researchers are currently working to overcome the barriers to using methanol as a hydrogen fuel source. So methanol may potentially be used to create hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the future."

the government funding the methanol and ethanol industries will give these researchers more money to work on that.
 
GhostFox said:
I think if politicians would stop pouring money into Ethanol to appease eco-nuts, then Hydrogen fuel would be a lot closer to being feasable.
Hydrogen isn't very feasable. Producing and transporting Hydrogen is extremely expensive and I believe it causes more pollution than regular oil. I think our best bet, at least for now, is focusing on hybrid vehicles.
 
No Limit said:
Hydrogen isn't very feasable. Producing and transporting Hydrogen is extremely expensive and I believe it causes more pollution than regular oil. I think our best bet, at least for now, is focusing on hybrid vehicles.

It is very clean, but too far away right now.
 
No Limit said:
I believe it causes more pollution than regular oil.

Not sure if you are talking about burning hydrogen or the production of it - but burning hydrogen doesn't produce any pollution :) Probably just me misunderstanding.

Hydrogen needs energy to be produced. Where would this energy come from?
 
I saw a Nova special about a hydrogen test vehicle whose only output was water. It was a big van because the hydrogen cells were so big, but it isn't as far away as people think.
 
Hydrogen needs energy to be produced. Where would this energy come from?

Hydrogen is a very positive fuel source, so eventually the manufacturing plants could run on hydrogen to produce hydrogen and you'd still end up in the plus.

But you are right, currently the production of hydrogen does cause pollution, but it is a net positive still.
 
GhostFox said:
I saw a Nova special about a hydrogen test vehicle whose only output was water. It was a big van because the hydrogen cells were so big, but it isn't as far away as people think.

It is farther away than what I am saying, and I could make the same arguments about hydrogen cell production you did about ethanol. I just think it's going to take a few steps to get to hydrogen.

Right now the most promising step towards hydrogen is the acceptance, research, and production of feasable hybrid vehicle technologies, among them is electricity, ethanol, and methanol. Using them to unleash new industries, a veritable flood of research money workingn towards the ultimate goal of a cheap, clean, renewable, energy source.
 
If enough people notice, these days its all about fusion, and zero-point energy, fossil fuels are an age old blunder, used because of their exploitational application, and because they became the first established energy source for electricity generation, even though Nikola Tesla had been experimenting with more ambitious idea's such as radiant energy, where electricity can be moved from one point to another using no wires, he discovered the phenomena of scalar waves, and also observed , what is now known as the bifield brown effect.

interesting read:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/186-187.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/188-189.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/195_workingdiagram.jpg



It was a tycoon giant's blunder, and decision to exploit the first methods of energy generation that led to where we are today, if they had been able to accept and adopt vaccum theory and its application, it would of prevented 100 years of pollution , improved life standards worldwide, and we would be far more advanced technologically, instead of being held back by sustainable capitalist ideal's.
 
clarky003 said:
If enough people notice, these days its all about fusion, and zero-point energy, fossil fuels are an age old blunder, used because of their exploitational application, and because they became the first established energy source for electricity generation, even though Nikola Tesla had been experimenting with more ambitious idea's such as radiant energy, where electricity can be moved from one point to another using no wires, he discovered the phenomena of scalar waves, and also observed , what is now known as the bifield brown effect.

interesting read:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/186-187.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/188-189.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Clarky003/195_workingdiagram.jpg



It was a tycoon giant's blunder, and decision to exploit the first methods of energy generation today, if they had been able to accept and adopt vaccum theory and its application, it would of prevented 100 years of pollution , improved life standards worldwide, and we would be far more advanced technologically, instead of being held back by sustainable capitalist ideal's.

ya, I truley believe the most important thing is to stop using oil and other unrenewable resources.
 
jondyfun said:
Not sure if you are talking about burning hydrogen or the production of it - but burning hydrogen doesn't produce any pollution :) Probably just me misunderstanding.

Hydrogen needs energy to be produced. Where would this energy come from?
Sorry, I didn't write that very well. I was talking about production which requires a huge amount of energy. My main point is that production and transport of hydrogen is extremely expensive and isn't very feasible, at least not at this point.
 
GhostFox said:
Hydrogen is a very positive fuel source, so eventually the manufacturing plants could run on hydrogen to produce hydrogen and you'd still end up in the plus.

But you are right, currently the production of hydrogen does cause pollution, but it is a net positive still.

Nah, buddy, 'positive' energy?

You can't produce energy from nothing. Using hydrogen to produce hydrogen would not result in an endless looping cycle, because of the inevitable inefficiencies in the process. For hydrogen to be successful as a fuel, you would have to provide the energy to produce hydrogen from renewable sources, no two ways about it. Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not a source.

Nolimit: that was what I thought you were saying, just wasn't sure :) no worries

( Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions - the energy from hydrogen fuel comes from the oxidation of hydrogen to produce hydrogen dioxide; water. This oxidation is an exothermic reaction which is where the energy comes from. Thus burning hydrogen fuel results in only two things, energy and water. For all hydrogen cells. )
 
You would use hydrogyn to power the extraction of hydrogyn from other stuff.

Wind power could also do that.
 
HunterSeeker said:
You would use hydrogyn to power the extraction of hydrogyn from other stuff.

Wind power could also do that.

Point is, using hydrogen to extract hydrogen will lose energy, because although the bonds broken/made will equate to 0 in total energy loss, the inevitable energy loss involved through the process' inefficiency will put the whole process in the red
 
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