A few basic newbie questions

[The Black Nine]

Hey guys. So I decided to finally get started mapping with Hammer. (Better late than never) Anyway, I had a few questions. So here it goes:

1. I'm brand new to this kind of engine. So, you would say this engine is BSP based? (If so what does that stand for?) I've only used UnrealEd before, and before that it was several really old level editors, so I'm finally getting back into what I love. Only now, I'm really out of date on what everything means, the differences between different kinds of level editing, ect.

2. I can't seem to figure out how to view my lighting in Hammer itself. I know there aren't any leaks, since it's just an empty cube and the lighting shows up in game. I must be missing an option for viewing it in the 3d window, where is it?

3. So, from what I can understand, this engine compiles every face or polygon that is not touching null (empty) space, correct? So, if I made a cubical room, in the actual game it would only be rendering those 6 faces instead of 36 faces for each wall being a cube primitive, right?

Thanks in advance, I appreciate it.

(I also searched the forum and looked through tutorials for answers to these, and no luck, so here I am.)

 

[HunterSeeker]

2. I can't seem to figure out how to view my lighting in Hammer itself. I know there aren't any leaks, since it's just an empty cube and the lighting shows up in game. I must be missing an option for viewing it in the 3d window, where is it?

Compiling lightmaps are a time consuming thing having it show up in the editor would end many mappers lives (think 3 min wait each time you change something), so it is not possible.

3. So, from what I can understand, this engine compiles every face or polygon that is not touching null (empty) space, correct? So, if I made a cubical room, in the actual game it would only be rendering those 6 faces instead of 36 faces for each wall being a cube primitive, right?

I think that is right.

 

[HolySdrJR]

1. I'm brand new to this kind of engine. So, you would say this engine is BSP based? (If so what does that stand for?) I've only used UnrealEd before, and before that it was several really old level editors, so I'm finally getting back into what I love. Only now, I'm really out of date on what everything means, the differences between different kinds of level editing, ect.

2. I can't seem to figure out how to view my lighting in Hammer itself. I know there aren't any leaks, since it's just an empty cube and the lighting shows up in game. I must be missing an option for viewing it in the 3d window, where is it?

3. So, from what I can understand, this engine compiles every face or polygon that is not touching null (empty) space, correct? So, if I made a cubical room, in the actual game it would only be rendering those 6 faces instead of 36 faces for each wall being a cube primitive, right?

1) I have no idea what you're talking about...
:cheese:

2) You have to compile and then load the map to actually see the light effects, you can't see them in Hammer... Is this what you were asking?

3) A way to do this that'll iliminate any doubt is to put the 'nodraw' texture/brush on the backsides of anything you don't want viewed...

 

[j1mmmy]

1. I'm brand new to this kind of engine. So, you would say this engine is BSP based? (If so what does that stand for?) I've only used UnrealEd before, and before that it was several really old level editors, so I'm finally getting back into what I love. Only now, I'm really out of date on what everything means, the differences between different kinds of level editing, ect.

1. BSP stands for Binary Space Partition. It's a very old format which has been updated many many times. I think it was first used in Doom. It has been used mostly in Quake 1/2/3 engine based games (including Half-Life). I believe it was even used in Halo. I think it's a format for saving map information in binary. Uncompilied map files can be opened in text editors.

My understanding is that Unreal mapping is based on making spaces out of a huge box (Well that's a bad way of explaining it, but from what I've read, I've never mapped for an unreal based engine ) whetheras Half-Life 2 and I think all BSP based games start from a void and you create geometry like brushes in this void. You must seal off your map from the void using brushes if you do not there is a leak. I.e. the void is leaking into your map.

I hope that helps.

2. Hl2's lighting is not dynamic. I think you can do what your talking about in D3 but Hl2 does main lighting calculations in map compiliation.

3. I believe you are correct.

I think that's all pretty much right or close to right. Have fun.

 

[The Black Nine]

Thanks everyone for your responses. My questions have been answered. Only one thing:

2. Hl2's lighting is not dynamic. I think you can do what your talking about in D3 but Hl2 does main lighting calculations in map compiliation.

I dunno if I made that question very clear. I didn't think everything would automatically update every time I changed something. (Thus not real time dynamic lighting, but real time, precalculated lighting) Since that is something that Doom 3 would do, not HL2. I'm thinking there has to be a way that you can view your precalculated lighting in the engine, even if you have to recalculate the lighting.

But, from what I can understand from the responses I got, your saying there is no way to view any lighting inside the level editor? How are you supposed to set up your lights correctly if you have to guess for each one, then load up the actual game to see how it looks? Seems like that would take forever...

I would think it would be similar to the Unreal Engine (I know this isn't the Unreal Engine) but still, it seems to me the logical process would be: Set up lighting>Compile map (calculate lighting, or whatever it's called in this engine)>See the result in your 3d window

 

[j1mmmy]

Sorry, it is dynamic just it uses pre-calculated lights as well, will post more later.

 

[The Black Nine]

Oh, I guess I should also point at that I'm not referring to real time lighting from an Enemy or Character. I know those cast real time soft shadows, but the architecture, as I understand, is precalculated lighting. I guess my question boils down to, is there a way to view precalculated lighting within Hammer? I know this was answered above, but I'm just confirming.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Oh, I guess I should also point at that I'm not referring to real time lighting from an Enemy or Character. I know those cast real time soft shadows, but the architecture, as I understand, is precalculated lighting. I guess my question boils down to, is there a way to view precalculated lighting within Hammer? I know this was answered above, but I'm just confirming.

Nope, the soloution? Dont bother having every shadow just right, it gets more realistic that way anyway...

 

[The Black Nine]

Wow. That's surprising.

Especially to me, since when not doing level design, I do 3d art. And lighting is probably the most important part of building a visualy satisifying scene.

I guess the work process will have to go: Set up lighting>compile map>play map>make notes about lighting>go back into hammer to make noted changes>repeat

 

[The Black Nine]

Hmm, well I have yet another question about lighting...

Where's the fill light (ambient light, flat lighting, ect)? Or the equivelant to that?

For example, if you have one room, and one light and a shadow casted by another object, how do you control the darkness of that shadow?

 

[HolySdrJR]

how do you control the darkness of that shadow?

The only thing I've figured out is to control how bright the light is, for one and then the distance that it shines. If you reduce these two values the shadows get darker, the further you are from the source. If anyone knows if you can control the shadows, please enlighten us!

I guess the work process will have to go: Set up lighting>compile map>play map>make notes about lighting>go back into hammer to make noted changes>repeat

Yeah, it is a pain in the patute for sure, but we all gotta do it. What I do is have CS:S running, and alt-tab back and forth between the two, typing "map <mapname>" in console to reload it whenever there are changes...

 

[RPGreg2600]

You can alt tab CSS???? Why does it crash when I alt tab it? I alt tab back in and all I get is black screen.

 

[The Black Nine]

The only thing I've figured out is to control how bright the light is, for one and then the distance that it shines. If you reduce these two values the shadows get darker, the further you are from the source. If anyone knows if you can control the shadows, please enlighten us!

Hmmm, it seems to me, that if an object is casting a shadow, and there's only one light, the shadow should be completely black. Unless it's an attempt at faking radiosity. I don't know, this seems strange, I'll have to experiment with it. I want to be able to make enviroments that have high contrast in lighting. This might not be the right engine for me.

Yeah, it is a pain in the patute for sure, but we all gotta do it. What I do is have CS:S running, and alt-tab back and forth between the two, typing "map <mapname>" in console to reload it whenever there are changes...

I didn't know you could do that. Thanks for the tip.

 

[The Black Nine]

I have been playing around with the light settings and have realized something.

If you look at the screenshot, you can see the bottom of the cube is almost completely black, while the surrounding shadow casted by that cube is much lighter. (This is much more apperant in game) You would think they should be the same shade considering there is only one light. Is there a way to "fix" this? Or any way to make enviroments with high contrast lighting?

(sorry for the double post)

 

[Bigcheese]

ahahahhahahah, guess what??? unrealEd can compile light in about 3 seconds...

source = teh suck

as for your problem... add a light, or if you use light_envy it will fix it (it has a darkest setting.)

 

[Ti133700N]

I usually simulate radiosity by adding very dim lights that have the color of the surrounding environment (walls).

 

[The Black Nine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming Source. (Or UnrealEd) I really like the way lighting is handled in source, outside of not being able to view it in Hammer and this shadow issue. The shadows it casts are really nice looking, as well as the brighter spots. I'm just curious about this high contrast lighting thing. But thanks Big Cheese, I will try that out. Also, there are a lot of things I like better in this engine than UnrealEd. Like the pieces actually line up easily, the grids work good, and resizing is a snap. But UnrealEd obviously has it's own strengths too (above mentioned lighting).

Ti133700N - Yes, this technique has occured to me. The only thing I wonder about is how much it will bog down gameplay. Especially with something really complex in the room, like "expensive water" or whatever they call it.

 

[Ti133700N]

You give the feel/mood of the level with the lightning. If you have water, even if the walls are brown, use a light blue for the lights, it will add alot to the scene. Don't use 15 lights in an area to simulate radiosity. 1 or 2 will suffice and it won`t reduce the performances. And the use of the entities (water) is in the hands of the mapper wich I think is a good thing. Only use expensive water if you really think you need it. Otherwise, use a cheaper water. The players will prefer to play a map with less details (reflections on everyting etc.) but with a good framerate than a map with alot of graphical stuff that nobody can run faster than 20fps.

 

[Kyorisu]

Experiment with everything. If you want to try something out and don't think it will work don't ask somebody, do it.