Abortion and the death penalty.

[Raziaar]

Yeah yeah, I know what you're thinking. Yet another flame ridden topic of discussion about abortion and death penalty.

This isn't really here to go into specifics about abortion or the death penalty... and instead compares the two and the way some people hold their opinions based on them.

I was inspired to make this topic after hearing someone who I met talk about how wrong the death penalty is... and how it was an abomination of humanity to execute people. How barbaric it was that we were one of the countries that still practiced it. Then this person started talking about abortion, and went on about how they support it and the fact that it is the woman's choice to do with her body what she wants. How people should have no say in what they choose to do with their unborn babies, no matter how far along they are. One week... three months... six months. Its all the same.

I was shocked, and disgusted by the hypocrisy of this person, and how the reality of it was that there are many many more here and worldwide who shares these exact same views. The sanctity of human life. All life should be spared and noone should be punished with the barbaric act of execution no matter how heinous their crimes. So say these people.

And then I think of these innocent, unborn babies that have the potential for so much. The ability to experience the joys and struggles in life that make it wonderful. But no... many babies don't have the choice to experience life. Their life and death decisions are made by the mother whom merely serves as a vessel for their journey into life. The mother, so bent on her decision to be the decision maker on whether or not this baby lives, or dies... can just decide to toss this baby overboard and say, "The hell with it. I don't want this child".

The thought that there are people out there who would prefer not to see a guilty man executed for this acts against humanity, yet also rant and rave about their 'choice' whether to spare or execute the innocent child that resides within them. It makes me lose faith in humanity.

Some people say i'm a monster for believing that the most guilty, the most heinous of criminals should be executed for their crimes by the state. But they... they are the monsters if they fight for that life, and deny it to the unborn who are completely innocent of any wrongdoing on this earth. The guilty = Spared. The innocent = Executed. This is the way they would like to have it.


When I had talked to that person earlier... I wanted to smack them upside the head, yet I had refrained. I'm kinda dissapointed in myself for not doing so now actually, since it enfuriates me so much.

The hypocrisy.

/rant

 

[Anoma|ous]

I'm against both.

 

[Calanen]

Its kind of pointless to debate or discuss this topic. Just makes people go off the deep end.

 

[Apos]

Obviously, it's nonsense to talk about these subjects unless you first have some semblance of a common defintion of what it is to have a life that is in some way of moral worth. I would argue that consciousness is the central criteria for moral worth, but of course, others might argue differently. But you cannot assume someone is a hypocrite until you know their conception of what it is to be of a being of moral worth.

 

[Korgoth]

Is it not hypocritical to claim that you're building a "culture of life" then execute a record number of inmates, a few of whom were very contraversial? (because of evidence they may have been innocent)

Bush wouldn't pull a double standard like that now would he? ... Or did he?

 

[gh0st]

Is it not hypocritical to claim that you're building a "culture of life" then execute a record number of inmates, a few of whom were very contraversial? (because of evidence they may have been innocent)

Bush wouldn't pull a double standard like that now would he? ... Or did he?

Bush? Wouldnt have anything to do with the courts now would it? You know, cause Bush personally convicts them and then he pulls the switch and defecates all over the inmates corpse. Yes... the all knowing, civil liberty minded courts who execute inconveniences.

 

[Korgoth]

Ummm i'm talking about his stint as governor of Texas...

Although he said he was anguished by the decision, in an interview in Talk magazine, writer Tucker Carlson described Bush mimicking the woman's final plea for her life. "'Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, 'don't kill me.'"

That quote is out of time magazine..

Maybe you should do a little research on the matter gh0st, true bush didn't "pull the switch" be he did have to ok it...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51773-2005Jan5.html

http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/53/Texecutioner.htm

Just a couple of good reads, semi related. But you probably won't bother, so why should I?

 

[gh0st]

But you probably won't bother, so why should I?

Bingo.

 

[Anoma|ous]

Man, this subject bites, bites hard.

 

[The Monkey]

I'm against death penalty...why? First of, because of all the innocent people that is being executed, I read somewhere that 50% of the executed were, if not innocent, then they had comitted a crime whick did not give death penalty, man slaughter instead of murder, etc. Secondly, if the government kill the murderers, then they're no better than the killers themselves. Did you know that the US is the only democratic country in the world that has death penalty in peace time?
I'm for abortion, although not all the way through the pregnancy, but rather up to the second or third month. At that stage, the bady has no sences, no feelings, no awareness of its own existance, and therefore, it's not alive. And you cant end something that hasn't begun, can you?

 

[AzzMan]

Child molesters/sexual predators should be executed. Only not these wussy no-pain methods the US uses. It would be a whole lot more satisfying to have em dismembered and buried alive. :cheers:

 

[Absinthe]

I was shocked, and disgusted by the hypocrisy of this person, and how the reality of it was that there are many many more here and worldwide who shares these exact same views. The sanctity of human life. All life should be spared and noone should be punished with the barbaric act of execution no matter how heinous their crimes. So say these people.

How hypocritical this person is, is dependent on what you consider to be "life" and when you think it starts.

I don't see the hypocrisy because I don't think unborn babies constitute life.

 

[Raziaar]

How hypocritical this person is, is dependent on what you consider to be "life" and when you think it starts.

I don't see the hypocrisy because I don't think unborn babies constitute life.

I guess it all just depends on how far advanced they are. as I said in my original post, any stage of the pregnancy would be fair game to abortion to the people with this mindset... 8 months... sure, coathanger that baby to death if you can't afford an abortion clinic. Doesn't bother them.

I guess mentally challenged people are fair game too... since well, they're not fully developed... <rolls his eyes>

EDIT: When women are pregnant... what do we say? Do we say... oh, how is the embryo doing? Oh, how is the fetus doing? No... we say baby, because most of us recognize it for what it is... a lifeform. Certainly a life-form that has more of a right to exist than a murderer.

I mean, can you honestly say "Murderers have the right to live, but unborn babies do not". Because that is what these people are silently saying.

 

[short recoil]

Well killing another human is killing another human, it depends wether you and others see it as right though, thats all it boils down to.

There would be very few people who would object to someone being killed if they raped and killed 1,000 children.

The subject of killing is another human complex that varies in the eyes of different people.

I can't really make up an exact opinion, because mine would be bias......i will not try to say what is right and wrong, other humans will but they can bitch and argue all they like.

 

[Absinthe]

I guess it all just depends on how far advanced they are. as I said in my original post, any stage of the pregnancy would be fair game to abortion to the people with this mindset... 8 months... sure, coathanger that baby to death if you can't afford an abortion clinic. Doesn't bother them.

This is little more than an appeal to emotion. It has very little substance to it.

I guess mentally challenged people are fair game too... since well, they're not fully developed... <rolls his eyes>

But they're conscious and very much alive.

EDIT: When women are pregnant... what do we say? Do we say... oh, how is the embryo doing? Oh, how is the fetus doing? No... we say baby, because most of us recognize it for what it is... a lifeform. Certainly a life-form that has more of a right to exist than a murderer.

That's a mere name, Raziaar. All euphemisms aside, it is what it is. A cellular organism that is neither fully developed nor conscious.

I mean, can you honestly say "Murderers have the right to live, but unborn babies do not". Because that is what these people are silently saying.

My problem with the death penalty is that our judicial system is not fullproof. Unborn babies, in terms of their moral status, don't really have any rights IMO.

 

[Foxtrot]

I'm against death penalty...why? First of, because of all the innocent people that is being executed, I read somewhere that 50% of the executed were, if not innocent, then they had comitted a crime whick did not give death penalty, man slaughter instead of murder, etc. Secondly, if the government kill the murderers, then they're no better than the killers themselves. Did you know that the US is the only democratic country in the world that has death penalty in peace time?
I'm for abortion, although not all the way through the pregnancy, but rather up to the second or third month. At that stage, the bady has no sences, no feelings, no awareness of its own existance, and therefore, it's not alive. And you cant end something that hasn't begun, can you?

Haha, 50 percent are innocent? Why do we even arrest people then is 50 percent are innocent? That statistic is WAY off, it is more like .05%.

 

[PvtRyan]

I doubt many people would care if every coldblooded murderer out there would drop dead next morning. It's not their lives we care about, it's about the fact that a democratic civilization should not go about killing people for 'revenge' and in the end solving nothing. It's not even a proper punishment.

I also doubt many people are in favor of abortions late into the pregnancy. An abortion in the first few weeks is a whole other matter than an abortion in the 8th or 9th month.

 

[Foxtrot]

I doubt many people would care if every coldblooded murderer out there would drop dead next morning. It's not their lives we care about, it's about the fact that a democratic civilization should not go about killing people for 'revenge' and in the end solving nothing. It's not even a proper punishment.

I also doubt many people are in favor of abortions late into the pregnancy. An abortion in the first few weeks is a whole other matter than an abortion in the 8th or 9th month.

I don't think we are killing for revenge, but the US has a very bad prison system. We need to start killing people just to free up space and so we stop spending money on them, if they are going to sit in jail for life why even deal with them? Just kill them and let it be done.

 

[gh0st]

I don't think we are killing for revenge, but the US has a very bad prison system. We need to start killing people just to free up space and so we stop spending money on them, if they are going to sit in jail for life why even deal with them? Just kill them and let it be done.

Agreed. We wouldnt even have to waste bullets or other precious raw material on them. We could just periodically gas the cells with the most profane and repeat offenders. Then sell their organs to the sick, and their muscles to third world nations and feed them.

 

[Foxtrot]

Agreed. We wouldnt even have to waste bullets or other precious raw material on them. We could just periodically gas the cells with the most profane and repeat offenders. Then sell their organs to the sick, and their muscles to third world nations and feed them.

Great idea, we could profit from these people. Even better, we could force them to work and when they get old we could sell their organs (60 and past). As long as the output is more than the input this system would work, if not just kill them.

 

[PickledGecko]

…someone who I met talk about how wrong the death penalty is...
…abortion, and went on about how they support it and the fact that it is the woman's choice to do with her body what she wants.

I completely agree with this person. Although I have no strong feelings about the rights and wrongs of the death penalty, with regards to religion or morals, I do disagree with most peoples justifications for it. Such as punishment, it doesn’t seem like a better punishment that life in prison. Or deterrent, this implies that we are all willing to kill someone in cold blood and the only thing stopping us is the fear of getting caught and punished. This is simply not true, during World War II only 1% of frontline soldiers shot with the intent of killing. Most people simply do not want to take a life, even if they can find justification in war or self defence. Nobody wants to die anymore than they want to be locked up for the rest of their life, the only way you can deter someone from killing is to increase the perceived chances of catching murderers. If people believe they can’t get away with it, they will choose not to commit a crime, regardless of whether the punishment is life in prison, or the death penalty. The only thing that sways me to the “anti-death penalty” crowd is the consequences for an innocent person being convicted. You cannot give a dead man an acquittal.

As far as abortion is concerned, I don’t see the connection. The death penalty is intended to end a guilty persons life, an abortion is the ending of a pregnancy, which has the unfortunate consequence of ending the life of the foetus.

…made by the mother whom merely serves as a vessel for their journey into life...

I think this is where we differ in opinion most of all. I don’t see a pregnant woman as merely an object, a mere “vessel”. I see her as a woman who has the right to make decisions about her well being, her health and her life. I don’t believe women are put on this planet for the sole purpose of carrying children, they are humans like men. They deserver the decision making rights about their bodies and health that men demand and get.

…yet also rant and rave about their 'choice' whether to spare or execute the innocent child that resides within them...

It’s not a choice whether to “spare or execute”, it’s a choice over their body. You are implying that the intention is to pass judgement over a life; this cannot be farther from the truth.

When women are pregnant... what do we say? Do we say... oh, how is the embryo doing? Oh, how is the fetus doing? No... we say baby, because most of us recognize it for what it is... a lifeform. Certainly a life-form that has more of a right to exist than a murderer.

When people refer to an embryo as a baby, are they intending to have it aborted? I have my doubts that someone who has every intention to end their pregnancy would tell many people they were pregnant in the first place. The reason we talk about “a baby” in this situation is because people are thinking about the future, they say things like, “this is the baby’s room.” Why would an unborn baby need its own room? It doesn’t because nobody is referring to the embryo, they are referring to the fact there will be a baby that needs a room in the near future.

I mean, can you honestly say "Murderers have the right to live, but unborn babies do not". Because that is what these people are silently saying.

I am not saying this, silently or otherwise. I don’t believe execution or abortion has anything to do with anybody’s “right to live”. Execution is revenge. Abortion is a woman having control of her own health, a right we all have, a right I don’t believe anyone should have to give up.

 

[AzzMan]

Damn Foxtrot and Ghost I may disagree with you guys on a lot of things, but you got some damn fine ideas regarding these inmates. If I get into power some day, I'll be sure and put you in charge of the prisons ;D

 

[Da Funkey Gibbon]

I am against both abortion and the death penelty, as was the late pope, I hope more people can follow his example.

 

[diluted]

For abortion, against the death penalty. On abortion, I believe it is a woman's right to choose, end of story. As for the death penalty, I am against it because I believe life imprisonment is a harsher punishment than execution. And the harsher the punishment, the better.

 

[Raziaar]

For abortion, against the death penalty. On abortion, I believe it is a woman's right to choose, end of story. As for the death penalty, I am against it because I believe life imprisonment is a harsher punishment than execution. And the harsher the punishment, the better.

Then really you don't have a problem with the death penalty, except for the fact that its 'less penalizing'? I don't buy that.

But seriously.. Those of you who are completely pro choice for women. I'm pro choice... in the early stages, sure... but if its completely up to the woman as you believe, how do you feel about pregnant smoking and drinking, and drug usage?

I mean, the baby isn't a human being, it has no rights... Should the woman be allowed to use these substances that are PROVEN to be debilitating to the baby during its growth?

 

[Foxtrot]

For abortion, against the death penalty. On abortion, I believe it is a woman's right to choose, end of story. As for the death penalty, I am against it because I believe life imprisonment is a harsher punishment than execution. And the harsher the punishment, the better.

It is a harsher punishment, which can be a good thing to a certain point. How much money should we really spend on these criminals just to make them suffer? Personally, I don't think a cent should be spent on them, if it was up to me we could just gather all murderers and stick them in a hole to die. That could cost some money in wages and gas, but other than that it is free.

 

[Absinthe]

It's funny you say that, because executions cost more money than maintaining those in life imprisonment. :\

 

[The Monkey]

Haha, 50 percent are innocent? Why do we even arrest people then is 50 percent are innocent? That statistic is WAY off, it is more like .05%.

I never said that 50% was innocent, read my post again. I doubt that it's true, but it's waaaay more that 0,05%...

 

[firemachine69]

I support abortion and execution. Problem solved.

Then really you don't have a problem with the death penalty, except for the fact that its 'less penalizing'? I don't buy that.

But seriously.. Those of you who are completely pro choice for women. I'm pro choice... in the early stages, sure... but if its completely up to the woman as you believe, how do you feel about pregnant smoking and drinking, and drug usage?

I mean, the baby isn't a human being, it has no rights... Should the woman be allowed to use these substances that are PROVEN to be debilitating to the baby during its growth?

No, she can do whatever the hell she wants.

But she has to take the responsibility for when the baby's born and any associated problems.

 

[short recoil]

It's funny you say that, because executions cost more money than maintaining those in life imprisonment. :\

Thats only because of all the palava.

Price of a 9x19 fmj round, about 15p

 

[firemachine69]

I find ironic that the terrorists tried in Canada recently (in the Air India thing) required a facility newly constructed JUST for them. 3.7 million was the price tag. They better ****ing use that place again, but meh, I can't threaten to change my vote otherwise, I was decided to vote against them long before.

 

[Foxtrot]

It's funny you say that, because executions cost more money than maintaining those in life imprisonment. :\

It is funny that you say that, because starving a person costs nothing.

 

[Absinthe]

It is funny that you say that, because starving a person costs nothing.

If you want to descend into barbarism, then okay. I'd prefer not to.

 

[PvtRyan]

It is funny that you say that, because starving a person costs nothing.

I think there are some spaces left in Iran and North Korea, maybe you'll feel more at home there.

 

[AzzMan]

I have a better solution. Those who want to keep them alive can pay out of their own pockets for their food and shelter. Then when they get out on early release, they can stay at your homes too Problem solved and everyone's happy.