An excellent article about Doom and Hl2

[Paravel]

I just finished reading this and think there are some very valid points made about the similarities, differences and overall...stuff, blah blah blah read it

http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=titans

 

[oberGeist]

looks like a good article, but

While console gamers head like lemmings for Halo 2 - which despite being inferior to both will doubtlessly sell more than Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 combined

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

don't know about Halo 1, but HL1 sold more than 15mil copies. we'll have to wait and see

thanks for the heads up man :cheers:

 

[CyberPitz]

valid points were stated, and they are true. Although I, personally didn't enjoy the lighting of Doom 3. The way it works, it acts as if the darkness is thicker then the light...I don't really like that. Then the monsters look really rubbery. He did have a point about the AI in both games. That is the best vs news post for them both I think I've ever seen. Good find!

 

[Hazar]

It seemed really good

He never really gave a clear cut answer on which is better though.

 

[Prince of China]

I had always liked Adrenaline Vault. Nice article.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Unlike some "I-don't-like-simple-retro-arcade-action" snobs, I enjoy returning to the pure adrenaline rush of run-and-gun FPS action found in Doom 3.

But Painkiller completely owns Doom 3 in the retro run-and-gun FPS action department. In fact Painkiller captures more of the original Doom games feel than Doom 3 did. If you want real retro fps action you buy Painkiller.

 

[CriYam]

I thought most of that review was horrible.

With comments like this

"One advantage Doom 3 has in the interactive area is that you are able to interact with computers much more. In Half-Life 2 you can pick them up and throw them around, but in Doom 3 you can actually sit down at them and interact with options appearing on their screens."

Why oh why didn't valve use the time honored "blue key card opens blue door"? I feel we have missed out on major interactivity opportunities.


"Both games have a lot more puzzle solving than most first-person shooters, with Half-Life 2 having more emphasis on this facet than Doom 3. In Doom 3, puzzles focus on such discrete tasks as utilizing security codes and downloading crucial data, finding a key or hitting a switch, operating machinery, finding plasma inducers, restarting reactors, and retrieving data linkers. In Half-Life 2, on the other hand, the puzzles are much more complicated and multifaceted, in some cases requiring several sequential steps to solve. In one particularly memorable case, you use a giant crane to lower a bridge you need to traverse and use the same crane to pick up your buggy and drop it on a higher elevation so you can get to where you want to go."

Did he even play HL2? He found lowering the bridge and picking up the buggy complicated? And he found matching colored keys to doors interesting in doom3....

here's my summation of doom3:

-No lighting, who cares about graphics when you can't see anything.
-Cramped spaces, oh look I'm in a dirty metal corridor.
-Obvious enemy locations, I wonder if there's a guy on the other side of the door and when I walk through it a wall will open behind me revealing more baddies.
-Blue key - Blue door
-Tape down your left mouse button and walk forward killing everything in your path.
-No freaking lighting.

 

[Paravel]

Allright, this has allready turned into a "Halflife2 has a bigger cock!" contest. The fact is some people really like Doom 3. I don't. I regret buying it even if it was on sale.
The coolest few things for me were the interactive computer screens. They had a cool flashy interface and it was a good idea to make the cursor into a mouse cursor as it touches the screen. That sort of innovation would certainly compliment a game like Half-life 2 where the richness of puzzles and envrions is unrivaled (In a fps...well, nevermind..I forgot System Shock 2, Deus Ex...but only the first DX)

Anyway...even I can think of a few pros and I hate Doom 3. Even though I love Halflife 2 and think it's a masterpiece we all have to except other peoples opinions (Or at least discuss topics like this the way they deserve to be, from an intelligent and if you can insightful perspective). And if we absolutely cannot except that other people like something we don't, well then we're just going to be bitter and die alone, like Weird Al.

 

[HadouKen24]

I thought Doom 3 was an excellent game, myself. Not perfect, of course, but I had a lot of fun with it. HL2 was better, of course, but that doesn't make Doom 3 any worse.

He found lowering the bridge and picking up the buggy complicated?

Read it again. More complicated than anything in Doom 3.

I think you'd probably agree.

Why oh why didn't valve use the time honored "blue key card opens blue door"? I feel we have missed out on major interactivity opportunities.

Seriously, read it again. It was the fact that you could interact with the computers right there that he was talking about. Which was a great touch in Doom 3.

 

[CriYam]

Allright, this has allready turned into a "Halflife2 has a bigger cock!" contest. The fact is some people really like Doom 3. I don't. I regret buying it even if it was on sale.
The coolest few things for me were the interactive computer screens. They had a cool flashy interface and it was a good idea to make the cursor into a mouse cursor as it touches the screen. That sort of innovation would certainly compliment a game like Half-life 2 where the richness of puzzles and envrions is unrivaled (In a fps...well, nevermind..I forgot System Shock 2, Deus Ex...but only the first DX)

Anyway...even I can think of a few pros and I hate Doom 3. Even though I love Halflife 2 and think it's a masterpiece we all have to except other peoples opinions (Or at least discuss topics like this the way they deserve to be, from an intelligent and if you can insightful perspective). And if we absolutely cannot except that other people like something we don't, well then we're just going to be bitter and die alone, like Weird Al.

So FPS windows simulators turn you on? I don't think being on a computer, playing a virtual person being on a computer is all that thrilling.

 

[Paravel]

Then stay the hell away from Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Vampire The Masquerade, Splinter Cell, Doom 3...In fact, if doing something virtually doesn't tickle your fancy then go talk to people in reality....

 

[Cons Himself]

Halo 1 sold about 4 million copies iirc

 

[PvtRyan]

O gee, how surprising, the conclusion is in a nice politically correct fashion again with "both are good". :hmph:

Doom 3 was a huge disappointment.

 

[nagual678]

Why oh why didn't valve use the time honored "blue key card opens blue door"? I feel we have missed out on major interactivity opportunities.

he wasn't AT ALL talking about keys ? since you doubt reviewer "even played" HL2, it is also questionable if you played D3. - reviewer is very clearly talking about the computer's interface.

Did he even play HL2? He found lowering the bridge and picking up the buggy complicated? And he found matching colored keys to doors interesting in doom3....

1) there is not any "matching colored keys to doors" in D3, that was in D1 or D2
2) reviewer did not say it was interesting ?
3) that part in HL2 was technically more complicated than any puzzle in D3

-No lighting, who cares about graphics when you can't see anything.
-Cramped spaces, oh look I'm in a dirty metal corridor.
-Obvious enemy locations, I wonder if there's a guy on the other side of the door and when I walk through it a wall will open behind me revealing more baddies.
-Blue key - Blue door
-Tape down your left mouse button and walk forward killing everything in your path.
-No freaking lighting.

-the lighting (or the lack of) is on purpose. use the flashlight.
-D3's engine is mainly for indoors, and HL2 for outdoors. so ?
-D3 is more arcadeish. so ?
-although some puzzles are comparable in simplicity, there is NO such thing.
-ditto

 

[GRIMEY]

Doom 3 was a huge disappointment.

So was HL2. Opinions opinions opinions.

 

[CriYam]

O gee, how surprising, the conclusion is in a nice politically correct fashion again with "both are good". :hmph:

Doom 3 was a huge disappointment.

Exactly, I'm not one for going out of my way to step on peoples toes, but seriously doom3 was horrible, just absolutely horrible.

colored keys - pda's = same thing. Just because they aren't using colors this time, the codes may as well just been html hexadecimal color codes.

And to keep falling back to "there's a flashlight in the game" is stupid. There's a flashlight in HL2 and I'm sure you would enjoy playing all of HL2 constantly flipping between your pistol and your flashlight just to see 2 feet infront of yourself. (doom3 you either weild a weapon or a flashlight, not both) first mod released was duct tape.

But then, who needs light when you'll be spending all your time in front of the ingame computer admiring the interface. right?

I have the game too, lying to myself and others saying that it's a good game won't make me unregretful of buying that junk.

 

[nagual678]

you can NOT apply the same reasoning to deliberate choices in a game (wich may not appeal to everyone) and flaws. you don't like the lack of lights in D3 ? fine. but you can't apply a judgment presenting it as objective fact. this particular point for example, is a choice made by the developers - not a flaw. like it or don't, but do not post opinion as fact.
(duct tape was made by those and for those who did not enjoy having to switch between light and weapon - if i may say so, for those who did not understand that it was made on purpose, to increase the anxiety/fear of the choice : be safe or see clearly ? ever hit a zombie with the flashlight out of fear, instinctively ? if no you either did not finish the game (and consequently do not have valid grounds for judging it) or you did not enjoy that particular point. again, fine for me - just don't say the game is horrible because YOU did not enjoy it.

Doom 3 is the sequel to Doom 2. while games may (and do) evolve through the sequels, Doom 2 was an arcade game, and so is Doom 3. how can that be a dissapointment ? was the fact that it WAS going to be what it is ever hidden to you ? i don't think so.

But then, who needs light when you'll be spending all your time in front of the ingame computer admiring the interface. right?

most idiotic sentence ever.
i just realized i don't want to feed the troll, but since i already written this post, i may as well submit it.

 

[CriYam]

you can NOT apply the same reasoning to deliberate choices in a game (wich may not appeal to everyone) and flaws. you don't like the lack of lights in D3 ? fine. but you can't apply a judgment presenting it as objective fact. this particular point for example, is a choice made by the developers - not a flaw. like it or don't, but do not post opinion as fact.
(duct tape was made by those and for those who did not enjoy having to switch between light and weapon - if i may say so, for those who did not understand that it was made on purpose, to increase the anxiety/fear of the choice : be safe or see clearly ? ever hit a zombie with the flashlight out of fear, instinctively ? if no you either did not finish the game (and consequently do not have valid grounds for judging it) or you did not enjoy that particular point. again, fine for me - just don't say the game is horrible because YOU did not enjoy it.

Doom 3 is the sequel to Doom 2. while games may (and do) evolve through the sequels, Doom 2 was an arcade game, and so is Doom 3. how can that be a dissapointment ? was the fact that it WAS going to be what it is ever hidden to you ? i don't think so.


most idiotic sentence ever.
i just realized i don't want to feed the troll, but since i already written this post, i may as well submit it.

Calling me a troll doesn't make up for the fact that doom3 is a terrible game.

Nothing made me jump in the game, it was too predictable like mentioned before. open door kill bad guy,spin around kill the 2 guys who appear from the wall that slides open, repeat.

Don't get angry, just explain what was good about the game. I'm know someone could use the engine and make a great game, but doom3 wasn't.

 

[GRIMEY]

I don't think CriYam has played Doom 3.

 

[nagual678]

Calling me a troll doesn't make up for the fact that doom3 is a terrible game.

Nothing made me jump in the game, it was too predictable like mentioned before. open door kill bad guy,spin around kill the 2 guys who appear from the wall that slides open, repeat.

Don't get angry, just explain what was good about the game. I'm know someone could use the engine and make a great game, but doom3 wasn't.

as i was saying (did you even read my post), the matter was not about doom 3 being a good, superior game or not (i did not even give or imply any judgement) if you're asking, i think doom 3 was OK. but that's absolutely NOT the point

i feel silly having to basically restate what i said one exactly one post ago, but your opinion is not fact, and that deliberate game developers decisions are to be criticized but not presented/treated as flaws. apply what i am saying to your posts, and if you can't see my points, then i can't anything anymore.

 

[CriYam]

as i was saying (did you even read my post), the matter was not about doom 3 being a good, superior game or not (i did not even give or imply any judgement) if you're asking, i think doom 3 was OK. but that's absolutely NOT the point

i feel silly having to basically restate what i said one exactly one post ago, but your opinion is not fact, and that deliberate game developers decisions are to be criticized but not presented/treated as flaws. apply what i am saying to your posts, and if you can't see my points, then i can't anything anymore.

But it IS a flaw, the game can only look good when it's pitch black and after the first realization that "hey, I can't see 2 feet in front of me and I know where the predictable attacks are coming from so I'm not going to be too shocked when something comes barreling out the door at me, while I stand here holding a flashlight" sets in, you have to admit doom3 sucks.

It holds no replay value either, unless you're like whatshispickle in the video who shreeks at the top of his lungs playing any game.

The 4 person MP is a real winner too.

 

[nagual678]

even "better", you try to make me admit D3 sucks based on the fact you didn't understand the game ? nice try.
(i must however point out that it is not your fault that you did not understand the game, it's the developer's fault. i'm not saying you should have liked it., also because i would be using your same "logic")

no. you present opinion as fact, as before.

another point is that D3 was arguably elitist/selective : only if you had a top computer could you enjoy D3, only if you had knew D1/2's MP could you (maybe) enjoy D3's (wich is unarguably old school), and finally : you had to play the game (so to speak), to understand it in order to really play the game (D3)

 

[GRIMEY]

But it IS a flaw, the game can only look good when it's pitch black and after the first realization that "hey, I can't see 2 feet in front of me and I know where the predictable attacks are coming from so I'm not going to be too shocked when something comes barreling out the door at me, while I stand here holding a flashlight" sets in, you have to admit doom3 sucks.

Jibberish. BTW how can you predict where an attack is coming from if the room is pitch black?

It holds no replay value either, unless you're like whatshispickle in the video who shreeks at the top of his lungs playing any game.

The 4 person MP is a real winner too.

They are both single player games. Most people won't play either more than once. HL2 shipped with no MP at all. And in comparison to Doom3, or almost any other game, HL2's thrown-in-at-the-last-minute MP is severely lacking.

 

[Garric]

Jibberish. BTW how can you predict where an attack is coming from if the room is pitch black?

They are both single player games. Most people won't play either more than once. HL2 shipped with no MP at all. And in comparison to Doom3, or almost any other game, HL2's thrown-in-at-the-last-minute MP is severely lacking.

OAMDFASFLALSJFAJFA K ****ING MORON. How many ****ing times do I have to tell these people: CS:S is HL2's multiplayer. It didn't just appear out of the ****ing air, it shipped with the game!!!! :frown: :frown: :frown: :frown:

 

[CriYam]

Jibberish. BTW how can you predict where an attack is coming from if the room is pitch black?

They are both single player games. Most people won't play either more than once. HL2 shipped with no MP at all. And in comparison to Doom3, or almost any other game, HL2's thrown-in-at-the-last-minute MP is severely lacking.

Easy, turn around after opening a door or pushing a button and shoot, you're sure to hit the "surprise attack" that is revealed.

And I own doom3, I just spent the last hour replaying it because of this thread and now my opinion of it is even lower; because I havent played the stupid thing since I got HL2 and with the comparison it sucks even worse.

But this shouldn't even be a comparison to HL2 or any game for that matter, doom3 just plain sucks.

Maybe I should just be thankful gaming started with games like pong and not doom3 or there would be no gaming industry.

 

[Psychanalysis05%]

Personally, I loved Doom 3 at the time, it was a nice arcadey romp just BRIMMING with atmosphere. And that's exactly what Carmack hoped to create, atmosphere. Sure it wasn't a match for Silent Hill in that aspect, but he did a great job. And the light was what he'd planned for the game, you have to admit it's the most realistic simulation of light and shadow yet seen in any engine even though it may not be the mostbrightly lit. But why don't you try lighting a base on mars the size of a city and then keep it lit whilst it's being attacked by all the minions of Hell? I'm sure you can get it to look like a sunny day in Florida! As soon as you are able to, I want a paper on how you did it, along with photographs, diagrams, schematics and a video diary on my desk by the next day.
And a note on the 'puzzles', they were only there to break up the action. The game's all about blastin'.

And now on to HL2, it is a VERY different game - third on my list of top PC games, with System Shock and Deus Ex 1 above it.
HL2 is a plot driven game that is there to focus more on what happened after the Resonance Cascade. Of course there's going to be more depth to it!

When you play a game, don't go into it with standards set and you'll have a much more enjoyable experience. I expected Doom3 to be a dark broody blastfest and I expected HL2 to be a story driven masterpiece.
HL2 just needs 'real' shadows effects now, I'm not overly impressed with what's there.

 

[Cogar]

I thought it was a great article. Thank you for posting it, Paravel. :cheers:

Regarding Doom 3 vs. Half-Life 2, you are not going to get a clear consensus regarding which is better since they both had strengths and weaknesses. You can bet that they will have a different opinion at a Doom forum than at a Half-Life one.

 

[Solver]

Great article... I loved both games and I love how the article shows that they are, in fact, very different. Doom3 aims for retro-style, brainless shooting, HL2 aims for modern, intelligent FPS with puzzles, and both games do what they were intended to. Doom3 aims to have an atmosphere that's depressive because of blood, diablocial things, etc., HL2 aims to have an atmosphere that's depressive because you see everything is wrong, people are opressed, etc. Again, both games achieve their aims.

It was even spot on about weapons, both provide DIFFERENT arsenals which are meant to be so. And in fact, both rely on classic arsenals from the first versions of Doom and HL respectively - Doom isn't Doom without the chainsaw, shotgun and BFG, HL isn't HL without the crowbar, shotgun and Magnum.

Gameplay... you can't compare these either, they're different. Doom gameplay is about shooting everything that moves in an unwelcome, industrial looking environment taken over by demons. So naturally it can seem repetitive - shooting tons of monsters is indeed just that, but that's retro style and what long-time Doom fans wanted. HL2 has a slower-paced gameplay with more styorytelling, different approaches, etc.

Physics... actually they are the same in Doom3 and HL2, both very realistic. The difference is, physics does not apply to most objects in Doom3, and applies to almost every object in HL2. But both look extremely real as far as collisions, etc. go. The real difference is not that all HL2 objects are affected, but that it matters to gameplay.

Emotionally, both games worked, too, and differently. Doom3 had me scared while playing, HL2 had me emotional - glad to see Barney and Alyx, hating Breen and the Combine, etc.

Both are great games, just different.

 

[Paravel]

Nearly everyone is missing the point...and thank you Cogar...The point being: stop measuring your dick CriYam, who are you trying to convince? This article was supposed to be about how, given the right perspective, you can see why other people enjoyed something you may hate...

Now I say again, OTHER PEOPLE. And also, I will reiterate for almost everyone "Doom 3 is a piece of shit", there, the collective has spoken...

Anyways, yeah you hate Doom 3 and it's beyond your mind's ability to comprehend how people outside your being enjoy it, allright...we get it...

 

[CriYam]

Nearly everyone is missing the point...and thank you Cogar...The point being: stop measuring your dick CriYam, who are you trying to convince? This article was supposed to be about how, given the right perspective, you can see why other people enjoyed something you may hate...

Now I say again, OTHER PEOPLE. And also, I will reiterate for almost everyone "Doom 3 is a piece of shit", there, the collective has spoken...

Anyways, yeah you hate Doom 3 and it's beyond your mind's ability to comprehend how people outside your being enjoy it, allright...we get it...

Sorry, doom3 has horrible gameplay and awful graphics.

And to further disapoint you, I don't have a dick. :dozey:

 

[Mountain Man]

Nice article overall, but I disagree with his analysis of the respective stories. Half-Life 2 doesn't just appear to have a deep narrative, it actually does have a deep narrative. Doom 3, on the other hand, features a story that is passive and inconsequential. Like someone once said, listening to a voice journal about "spooky noises" is pretty meaningless after fighting through a dozen hellish minions. In Doom 3, the story seemed to be saying, "Sorry, but all the insteresting stuff happened before you got here. Now all that's left to do is shoot things."

All in all, it seems the article tried a little too hard to downplay Half-Life 2's strengths while unnecessarily buffing up Doom 3 in an attempt to make both games seem equal. And the author wimped out in the end with his parting "Can't we all just get along?" plea.

 

[Psychanalysis05%]

Actually, I found Doom 3's progressive story quite good, it provided a hell (no pun intended) of and insight into what happened on that base and lets you imagine just what happened at each point. It reminds me of the first HL, but instead of just seeing the devastation caused, you get to relive it through the emails and pda recordings.
And if you say that was a stupid idea, let's see how you fare against all the System Shock 2 fans around here, because that game did it first, in exactly the same way.
To me, Doom 3 seemed more like a mixture of tributes to classic fps games, with aspects of Doom, Half Life, System Shock and even a sprinkling of Deus Ex.

And I will repeat it for the masses;
HALF LIFE 2 IS FAR BETTER

Happy?

 

[Kanehdian]

Doom 3 strengths:
- Amazing graphics, best lighting effects.
- ID Software actually attempts a story instead of leaving it in the manual.
- Interactive computer terminals and the PDAs make the world seem more interactive.
- Very atmospheric. Plenty of tense moments and many opportunities to jump out of your seat in fright.

Doom 3 weaknesses:
- Too dark in a lot of a place for a lot of people.
- The physics engine wasn't used to it's full potential.
- Main character had no name, background, or even a reputation.
- Nothing innovative besides the graphics.

Half-life 2 strengths:
- Graphics engine that beats out Doom 3's in every area but real-time dynamic lighting.
- The story is seamless, not resorting to cutscenes at all.
- Physics engine is perfectly implemented into the gameplay.
- Characters (with faces) display convincing emotions through facial expressions and body language. (Alyx winks at you a couple of times)
- The environment changes once in a while, from canals to a zombie infested town, to the coastline.
- You do not have to find any freaking colored keycards.
- Vehicles are implemented very well, thanks to the physics engine.

Half-life 2's weaknesses:
- Online activation was a problem for a lot of people, especially retail owners.
- No snarks or houndeyes.
- It ended.
- We have to wait 3 or 4 years for Half-life 3.

Conclusion: Half-life 2 > Doom 3

 

[PooSlice]

I find it very funny to see how most people in this forum just has to say that half life 2 is so much better than doom 3 and that doom 3 sucked (and most of the time they dont even tell you why). While on the other hand at most doom 3 forums people think that both games are great but that doom 3 was a little bit better.

 

[BirdMan]

Sorry, doom3 has horrible gameplay and awful graphics.

Ok. you are saying that "If you don't like it, it sucks!"

So if I follow this rule then I come to the conclusion: "CriYam sucks!" because as far as I know you didn't say shit that helped you to get credibility in this thread.

And to further disapoint you, I don't have a dick. :dozey:

Ok so your a dickless 12 year old boy "OR" a girl that presents his opinions as FACTS. Well congrats! Is it because
#1 your scared in the dark??
#2 your comp aint able to support DOOM 3 in all it's greatness??? #3 Or is it just because your a close minded person who can't understand other's people opinions?

Is that a #3??? WE GOT A WINNER! Here, get a cookie, now go home and die please and leave this thread for what it was intended for.

Now THAT is being owned.

Go back playing CS. You are totally useless here.

 

[Cogar]

Actually, I found Doom 3's progressive story quite good, it provided a hell (no pun intended) of and insight into what happened on that base and lets you imagine just what happened at each point. It reminds me of the first HL, but instead of just seeing the devastation caused, you get to relive it through the emails and pda recordings.

I thought the same thing. In the original Half-Life, Gordon's role was to escape and do what he had to in order to save his own life. The story line was not that deep, but it was fundamental and interesting.

 

[Barney_M]

He didn't wimp out at the end imo because the review was not a contest, it was a comparison and what would be the point of his personal opinion deciding the 'winner'

 

[Cogar]

Half-life 2 strengths:
...
- The story is seamless, not resorting to cutscenes at all.

Although it did not have cutscenes, Half-Life 2 did have several scripted passages, some of them quite long, where Gordon could do nothing but observe. Further, the use of cutscenes in Doom 3 allowed adding other perspectives. Like the scripted sequences in Half-Life 2, they were not truly required to advance the story.

- Physics engine is perfectly implemented into the gameplay.

Perfectly implemented may be an overstatement regarding clipping and ladder issues.

- Vehicles are implemented very well, thanks to the physics engine.

The dune buggy steering and power going up hills without a running start did not seem that realistic, although the airboat was excellent IMO.

 

[CannibalBob]

Doom 3 is better than Half Life 2, you guys. Yeah, the truth hurts, but it's still the truth.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

[Setup]
Well, the article is right about Doom 3's enemies looking more polished...


...'cause they look like they've been run over by a floor buffer!
[/Punchline]