Any Computer Science majors/workers?

[DEATHMASTER]

I'm contemplating changing from biology to computer science as my major. It'll set me back 1-2 semesters but I think it'll be better than going into the job market with a Biology degree (which most people use for pre-professional reasons which I probably won't get into). How's the job market and pay in your experiences with a CS degree?

 

[Seppo]

0 replies

Don't worry, I will reply with a semi useful post!

I studied this stuff for about 2 years, well actually just one, since I didn't do shit on the second year. The only advice I can give you with my limited experience is that you really need to enjoy programming and messing around with computers if you're planning to get that degree. Learning stuff like C++ and php is next to impossible without motivation imo, and I don't know if those are even the hardest programming languages. But if you really like it, go for it! You might regret it later if you don't, allthough it's never too late to study new stuff.

 

[TimoJay]

If you don't plan on going into further education after you have the biology degree, then CS is better. (but I may be biased)

I'm not sure how the market is right now, since I got my job right before the current economic slump.... but i still have a job. Hopefully a 1-2 semester setback will help you avoid the depression thingy that I hear so much about these days. Just fyi, I had 5 offers (all in in the ~$65k range, signing bonus, relocation bonus, etc.) after graduation in spring 2008... but I worked my ass off to get each one.

I do like my job quite a bit since most of my projects involve integrating Assembly/C/C++ and the company's own graphical programming language together. It's very challenging, so like any engineering student, you need to love problem solving. (I also get to play with a lot of gadgets (ie. microprocessors) and my desk is completely cluttered with several thousands worth of electronic junk.)

 

[Krynn72]

That shit is booooooooooooring.

 

[Diesel_Power]

I'm currently studying Computer Science in college. Programming is hard at first, but once you get it, it's fun. For me at least. I like being able to write a huge thing of Java and be able to understand it and compile it and see what it does.

I don't know what I'm going to do with my education afterwards, but my parents used to work at the big banks here and they have connections. So i'll probably end up working as an IT guy for one of them.

 

[Solaris]

We learnt a bit of C in Physics, was fun.

 

[theotherguy]

I'm contemplating changing from biology to computer science as my major. It'll set me back 1-2 semesters but I think it'll be better than going into the job market with a Biology degree (which most people use for pre-professional reasons which I probably won't get into). How's the job market and pay in your experiences with a CS degree?

I'm a CS major at Carnegie Mellon University.

I don't know about the rest of the market, but graduates at CMU's school of computer science can expect a starting salary between 70 and 80 thousand dollars per year.

But if you're going into CS thinking that you're going to be doing a lot of programming and hacking things together, you'd be wrong. CS is mostly math, and a lot of it.

Your biology major might net you more, if you go into pre-medicine.

However, the entire job market is suffering, so getting a job in any field might be difficult.

 

[TimoJay]

.. starting salary between 70 and 80 thousand dollars per year.

Did I say $65k? Must have been a typo. I meant $165k. No, $164 MILLION DOLLARS.

Who gets a job for money anyway, right? :O

PS. I heard chemical engineers get shit tons of cash, son.

PPS. I'm not really a CS major... just computer engineer (the bastard child of CS and EE)

 

[Krynn72]

I'm making 35k straight out of school, so suck on that bitches!

 

[Taboo]

I dont know what school you go to or what programs they offer but you might consider changing to a clinical lab science major if youre still interested in being pre-professional health. Although there isnt technically a major you have to be for premed it shows a dedication to medicine that wont hurt. Its also employable right out of college if you dont get in wherever you want to try applying. My sister was premed but she didnt get accepted her first year and got her masters in CLS instead and loves it. Shes kind of glad she didnt get into medical school since she would be going through residency right now making like 30k...

 

[AKIRA]

I dropped out of computer science at Brock University (2nd year) because the maths that go along with it were just too hard. So I switched into Sheridan College for (brace yourself for the long fancy title) "software development and network engineering" which is actually an amazing program. 1 year of academics followed by 3 paid co-op placements with a semester of study in between each work term. I know a guy who graduated from the very program I'm in and makes 50-60k a year.

Same goes for some people I know who graduated from Brock University with a degree in CS they make about the same.

Network engineering is in very high demand and I think you can probably get a job even with the economy doing this bad as students are still finding co op placements relatively easily since this happened.

So, yea man if you have the drive to do it and you're good at problem solving/math then I say go for it because you can potentially make a lot of money.

 

[Saturos]

There are more career opportunities with a biology/microbiology major around the north Florida area atm. Nestle for example, is hiring microbiologists with at least a bachelors at their spring water bottling plant in Madison.

I have experience with C++,javascript, and html as well as an A+ certification and Net+ and a microcomputer technology diploma, and I still barely have my foot in the door. (I currently work for a company called Convergys.)

I have no degree in CS yet, and don't plan to go back to college for awhile, though jobs in the IT field are slim pickings around here right now, with the only few I've seen on offer required the applicant to have at least a bachelors in CS and experience with XML, javasript, Oracle, and a bunch of other shit.

 

[TimoJay]

woah, Woah, WOAH.

Don't be bringing that IT stuff into this CS thread.

 

[Saturos]

woah, Woah, WOAH.

Don't be bringing that IT stuff into this CS thread.

hmph. CS snobs. :arms:

 

[Pesmerga]

The computer science industry has got to be the most boring industry ever.

 

[Eejit]

Biology has quite a few jobs going, at least over here.

 

[Saturos]

Biology has quite a few jobs going, at least over here.

At one point while I was still in college, I was thinking of switching majors to microbiology. There's a much larger market for careers in that field around here in my area.

 

[Pesmerga]

There must be a dragon study subdivision of biology, no doubt.

 

[Saturos]

There must be a dragon study subdivision of biology, no doubt.

Palentology is an interesting field too. If I could just find some dragon bones, I'd be noted in the anulls of science the world over as well as filthy rich. :smoking:

 

[Ennui]

That's paleontology. When I was a kid I used to want to be a paleontologist, because dinosaurs are goddamn epic.

 

[Saturos]

That's paleontology. When I was a kid I used to want to be a paleontologist, because dinosaurs are goddamn epic.

dammit, I knew that was spelt wrong. I really need to quit relying so much on google for spell checking. I had it spelt right. *shakes fist at google*

 

[AKIRA]

That's paleontology. When I was a kid I used to want to be a paleontologist, because dinosaurs are goddamn epic.

 

[theotherguy]

The computer science industry has got to be the most boring industry ever.

There is no "computer science industry."

Computer science is defined as "The study of computers and all phenomena arising from them."

What you could do with a computer science degree could range from systems to networking to robotics to software engineering to game development to scientific research. It just depends on what you specialize in.

Some people find this boring, but I find it very interesting.

 

[Pesmerga]

There is no "computer science industry."

Computer science is defined as "The study of computers and all phenomena arising from them."

What you could do with a computer science degree could range from systems to networking to robotics to software engineering to game development to scientific research. It just depends on what you specialize in.

Some people find this boring, but I find it very interesting.

lol. If you're in CS, you're either writing code or wiring servers together. There is absolutely zero opportunity for field work or out-of-house social interaction. Sitting in a chair all day typing... sounds like pretty much what I already do on my spare time. I took one take at learning C++ and Python and Ruby and I found myself becoming something I absolutely did not want to become.

 

[theotherguy]

lol. If you're in CS, you're either writing code or wiring servers together. There is absolutely zero opportunity for field work or out-of-house social interaction. Sitting in a chair all day typing... sounds like pretty much what I already do on my spare time. I took one take at learning C++ and Python and Ruby and I found myself becoming something I absolutely did not want to become.

Now that's true.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I found myself becoming something I absolutely did not want to become.

"I can't say that it's even what you are willin to do. because I always knew that you had to be willin to die to even do this job. That was always true. Not to sound glorious about it or nothing but you do. If they aint they'll know it. They'll see it in a heartbeat. I think it is more like what you are willin to become."

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Well its nice to know that there's tons more opportunities after undergrad. What level math is it? My cousin said beyond calculus but the only maths I would have to take are linear algebra and stat. Don't sound that hard.

 

[Warbie]

I got kicked out of uni during the 3rd year while doing a computer science degree. I liked the networking and maths, but hated programming. Two of my friends love programming and loved the degree, so I guess it depends on what floats your boat.

Maybe check out some software engineering and coding books/tuts to see if anything interestes you? (you'll be doing alot of this). If you get a boner from that, CS will be right up our street. Otherwise, stick with biology. In the end I went down the Microsfoft/Cisco route and am now an IT consultant.

 

[mindless_moder]

CS isnt really the sort of thing you cant jump into just because you think it has a good scope. You need to really have a passion for it to actually be able to succeed. I'm not sure about CS in particular but my friends in Software Engineering take a lot of discrete math , which encompasses things like Sets , Boolean Algebra , Combinatorics etc.

If you are actually interested in branching out into something like this you may want to also consider Engineering as one of your options. Alot of first year science students actually switch Eng because of the limited opportunities in science and transferrable credits. Engineering focuses more on differential calculus than on discrete math, because they're used to model natural phenomena although we still learn discrete math because it is useful in forming and analyzing algorithms.

The job prospects for engineers are pretty good , Electrical and Chem seem to rank the highest in terms of positions and salary. from what i could google up , the typical EE makes "between $67,387 and $89,270. " here in Canada .

 

[theotherguy]

Well its nice to know that there's tons more opportunities after undergrad. What level math is it? My cousin said beyond calculus but the only maths I would have to take are linear algebra and stat. Don't sound that hard.

Linear Algebra and Statistics are certainly part of it, but its mostly discrete math.

My schedule of math classes looks like for the past two semesters: Calc II, Linear Algebra, Matrix, Statistics, Concepts of Math (discrete mathematics), Great Theoretical Ideas (sadistically, impossibly hard discrete math)...

Discrete math is at its heart what you learned in Kindergarten. It doesn't take into account differentials and infinitely small periods of time or space like calculus does. It is mostly about studying and proving concepts related to numbers. These are things like primes, sequences, divisibility, set theory, logic, proofs, sums, algorithms, discrete probability, combinatorics, etc.

Problems in these classes usually consist of "math puzzles" in the form of word problems that have mathematical solutions.

It certainly sounds easier than calculus at face value, but trust me, advanced discrete mathematics makes calculus look easy. I had never had below a B+ in any class in my life until I took Concepts of Math, and I barely passed with a 69.9.

Taking Great Theoretical Ideas right now, I spend about 30 hours a week on homework for that class alone, and the problems that they ask you to do are so difficult that you have to stare at them and think about them for hours until you even figure out how to go about finding a solution.

Trust me, every math class you have taken through calculus was about memorizing formulas and applying them in a step-by step fashion. Once you get into discrete math classes, everything you learned will become useless. In these classes, the hardest part is pulling a solution out of your ass and then proving that its true. Just getting the answer in a class like this is not enough, and neither is just the answer with shown work. You must justify every step in words.

 

[TimoJay]

You must justify every step in words.

i hated that so much. I swear it took me longer to write out the damn proof then to figure it out. My discrete maths teacher was mostly sadistic, as I'm sure most are.

lol pigeons.

 

[dfc05]

CS isnt really the sort of thing you cant jump into just because you think it has a good scope. You need to really have a passion for it to actually be able to succeed. I'm not sure about CS in particular but my friends in Software Engineering take a lot of discrete math , which encompasses things like Sets , Boolean Algebra , Combinatorics etc.

If you are actually interested in branching out into something like this you may want to also consider Engineering as one of your options. Alot of first year science students actually switch Eng because of the limited opportunities in science and transferrable credits. Engineering focuses more on differential calculus than on discrete math, because they're used to model natural phenomena although we still learn discrete math because it is useful in forming and analyzing algorithms.

The job prospects for engineers are pretty good , Electrical and Chem seem to rank the highest in terms of positions and salary. from what i could google up , the typical EE makes "between $67,387 and $89,270. " here in Canada .

I'm graduating in chemical engineering, but randomly took discrete math with my sister (EE) because she had to take a math course and it fulfilled my "upper level math, chem, or phys elective". It wasn't bad. I liked discrete math better than calculus. I never had to take linear algebra, which would probably be more useful to me than discrete math. It just sounds really boring.

Chem engineers can make upwards of $70,000 especially if they go into the petroleum industry. I don't like typical chemical engineering, so the only jobs I would take (environmental consulting) are more around $60-$65,000. And I'll probably go to grad school which will be a $20,000 to $30,000 stipend for lab work. So basically it's like I am going for the lowest paying position available.... I don't think I could take a desk job and make it through more than about a year without getting depressed .

As for biology, seems like people mostly go pre-med or do grad school then research. Interestingly, quite a few CS/computer engineering people I know went to grad school after they graduated (not because there weren't jobs available, just that they wanted to do grad school).

 

[phantomdesign]

I studied Math, Computer Science, and Physics in college, graduated at 20-years-old, then became a CG Artist and Automotive Designer. Of the courses I studied, computer science was the BIGGEST waste of my time. Sure I'm natural at algorithm development and a great programmer, but computer science at the college I went to might as well have been titled "How to get a desk job programming useless databases & not really knowing what you're doing." Most of the graduates couldn't write a damn pac-man game to save their life.

The moral of the story is . . . make sure your college has a respected and useful Computer Science program.

P.S. There is nothing difficult about 98% of math taught up until college graduation. The only problem is no one knows how to teach it. To understand any mathematical concept, you need to know 3 things (in order of importance).

1) What is it?
2) What are the formulas?
3) How do I use it?

Teachers usually show you #3 in action without explaining it, make you hunt for #2, and never tell you #1.

For example Parentheses
1: It's used to group "objects" (numbers, formulas, math operators, etc)
2: Dummy, it groups objects.
3: To group objects!

If they explained that back in 6th/7th grade properly, you'd all LOVE parenthesis, because they're just that awesome.

 

[As She Moves]

There is nothing difficult about 98% of math taught up until college graduation. The only problem is no one knows how to teach it. To understand any mathematical concept, you need to know 3 things (in order of importance).

1) What is it?
2) What are the formulas?
3) How do I use it?

Teachers usually show you #3 in action without explaining it, make you hunt for #2, and never tell you #1.

For example Parentheses
1: It's used to group "objects" (numbers, formulas, math operators, etc)
2: Dummy, it groups objects.
3: To group objects!

If they explained that back in 6th/7th grade properly, you'd all LOVE parenthesis, because they're just that awesome.

I think by following these three "guidelines" you would come away from a mathematical "concept" with only a superficial understanding of it. You've not included the question of why it is, which is of far greater importance. There also needs to be motivation for the concept. There are many non-trivial theorems proved in a subject all the time, however not all of them are essential knowledge that give you significant insight into that subject or even good mathematical "tools" useful in proving other non-trivial theorems in that subject. This motivation should help explain how a "concept" relates to other "concepts" and hopefully make you eager to understand it.

Also, I'm not so sure that someone who is studying computer science should have their ability and knowledge of the subject gauged by whether or not they can program a Pac-Man game. Programming is a modest-sized portion of computer science, but by no means is it more important or intellectually engaging than its other portions.

 

[theotherguy]

1) What is it?
2) What are the formulas?
3) How do I use it?

I disagree. It should be:

1) What is this particular problem about?
2) What formula can I use to represent this mathematically?
3) Why is it represented this way?
4) How can I prove it?
5) What does this say about this mathematical concept in general?
6) How can I use this to solve other problems?

ie.

1) This problem is asking me how many ways I can shuffle a deck using some algorithm which breaks the deck into two smaller decks A and B, and then rearranges them.
2) It looks like a binomial distribution that can be represented by pascal's triangle.
3) It is represented this way because of combinatoric laws X and Y.
4) I can think about this problem as representing the deck as a string of 1's and 0's for A and B, and selecting a random string of 1's and 0's to uniquely identify an arrangement.
5) Binomial distributions can arise from randomly selecting two different options.
6) Whenever I see options that are either off or on, or A or B, I should try first to represent it as a string of 1's and 0's, and then think about they ways I could be over or undercounting it.

I also think discrete math is much harder than calculus.

In calculus, the questions they ask you have very obvious underlying mathematical concepts and formulas. Once you understand the problem, you just plug in the variables into the formula and get the answer. In discrete math, its not immediately apparent how you can solve a particular problem, and often, the formula you generate to solve it is totally unique to that problem. You have to prove that your formula is correct and that it will work in all variations of the problem to get it right.

 

[AKIRA]

linear algebra was hell for me. Never again will I take that lol

 

[As She Moves]

I'm going to sound like a bit of a twat below. Just know that I'm not trying to make math out to be some sort of secret club whose members are the only ones having the "right" interpretation of it. I have a tendency to sound as if I am, though, and I'm sorry about this.

I also think discrete math is much harder than calculus.

In calculus, the questions they ask you have very obvious underlying mathematical concepts and formulas. Once you understand the problem, you just plug in the variables into the formula and get the answer. In discrete math, its not immediately apparent how you can solve a particular problem, and often, the formula you generate to solve it is totally unique to that problem. You have to prove that your formula is correct and that it will work in all variations of the problem to get it right.

I think it depends on what you mean by calculus. The theory of calculus (real analysis) is much deeper than what you said. In a course like that all major theorems are proved and you're often asked, for example, not to integrate a particular function, but to show rather that a class of functions, say continuous functions, on a closed and bounded interval is Riemann integrable. This needs rigorous justification without any handwaving.

I think you're right in saying that problems from combinatorics often have more self contained solutions. Calculus, as described above, tends to require a building up of knowledge as you go along. Proofs can sometimes reference many different theorems and definitions. However, it doesn't help to cling onto these theorems and definitions in writing a proof, as that usually gets you nowhere in understanding it. As far as which is harder, it's not so obvious to me. They're difficult in very different ways and it's always relative to the person. My brief experience with combinatorics was centered around problem solving rather than theory building. I mostly ended up learning heuristics and was left to my own devices in solving the problems, but it was still fun and I like to think that I got something out of it.

linear algebra was hell for me. Never again will I take that lol

And to think that many linear algebra courses don't teach linear algebra but rather the application of matrix theory, where the focus is put on computation and formulas. I don't blame you for considering it to be hell. It is often boring and tedious number crunching. If the focus of your class was not on linear operators on finite-dimensional vector spaces then I'd say it wasn't a proper linear algebra class. I hope you'll reconsider.

 

[dfc05]

I think I liked that in discrete math, everything seemed to fall in place logically. So on an exam, I might get some tricky problems, but I could think my way through them. I think my class was a lot easier than theotherguy's class though... we usually had textbook type problems without anything incredibly difficult to prove, and I honestly felt like my prof treated us like high school students. She liked to have people go up and solve problems on the board, at which point I would start working on homework for other classes.

I disliked how on calculus exams (or engineering problems with differential equations), sometimes you would have to remember specific methods or rules on how to integrate... like ways to substitute or rearrange things, or using dimensionless variables (ugh). It's easy to get stuck just because you forgot about some convoluted trick. This is why integration tables are awesome .

The theory of calculus stuff from As She Moves just goes over my head. I've (thankfully) never had to learn it.

 

[TimoJay]

Shush, you guys. You're going to make people think we are nerds.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Silence. Maths students are frequently the best students.
And I do humanities for chrissakes.