Anyone else read this?

[losermeetsworld]

I read in the paper today that Hydrogen cell cars have been perfected, and as soon as they can perfect a way to cheaply make the hydrogen fuel, they will hit the market hard... Costing as much as a normal car but getting insane mileage on super cheap fuel, and the only by product is water.


Sounds great, no?

 

[Lou]

I read in the paper today that Hydrogen cell cars have been perfected, and as soon as they can perfect a way to cheaply make the hydrogen fuel, they will hit the market hard... Costing as much as a normal car but getting insane mileage on super cheap fuel, and the only by product is water.


Sounds great, no?

yeah, it sounds great, ever since they came up with this idea, decades ago. They are also making flying cars

 

[xcellerate]

Trust me, they won’t be out for a while. Aside from the fact that basically NO gas stations offer hydrogen, do you realize how many jobs will be lost if our addiction to petroleum is stopped?

 

[Shamrock]

Trust me, they won’t be out for a while. Aside from the fact that basically NO gas stations offer hydrogen, do you realize how many jobs will be lost if our addiction to petroleum is stopped?

But do you realize how much our economy will rise because of it?

 

[clarky003]

Trust me, they won’t be out for a while. Aside from the fact that basically NO gas stations offer hydrogen, do you realize how many jobs will be lost if our addiction to petroleum is stopped?

weigh that up against how much better off more people and the environment will be in the future as it develop's, and surely you have a moral, green and economic winner, not to mention more alternate jobs will also be created.

 

[losermeetsworld]

But do you realize how much our economy will rise because of it?

Exactly, all the petroleum jobs will be replaced by hydrogen producing jobs, and it's simple logic, supply and demand, if the demand is skyrocketing for hydrogen, more stations will carry hydrogen and less will carry gas. And we won't be tied down to third world countires and get in needless wars.

 

[clarky003]

Exactly, all the petroleum jobs will be replaced by hydrogen producing jobs, and it's simple logic, supply and demand, if the demand is skyrocketing for hydrogen, more stations will carry hydrogen and less will carry gas. And we won't be tied down to third world countires and get in needless wars.

exactley, Although I cant see Oil giants going without a fight, although maybe not as there will be no value in the oil industry in a few decades as demand begins to exceed supply, hydrogen and other alt energies will begin to boom.

 

[Icarusintel]

Oh Noes! Where Will All The Hydrogen Go!?


edit: I got f*cking pwned by the capslock limiter...

 

[Shamrock]

Oh Noes! Where Will All The Hydrogen Go!?


edit: I got f*cking pwned by the capslock limiter...

Wtf? Capslock limiter? Har har.

 

[madog]

Exactly, all the petroleum jobs will be replaced by hydrogen producing jobs, and it's simple logic, supply and demand, if the demand is skyrocketing for hydrogen, more stations will carry hydrogen and less will carry gas. And we won't be tied down to third world countires and get in needless wars.

If by needless wars you mean the one America is in with the Middle Eastern terrorists than you are an idiot. That war isnt over oil, its over the fact that they ****in owned us on 911 and we cant let shit like that happen again. But i wont bring politics into this because I think thats just gay. The hydrogen concept is definitely a great idea though.

 

[NotATool]

as soon as they can perfect a way to cheaply make the hydrogen fuel

Taataa! There is our problem!

Right now, the only way to produce hydrogen is through electricity. And where is most elecriticy produced? Fossil-fuel consuming power plants. yay.

My mother, Dr. Wintz P.H.D. in molecular biology, worked closely on this (specifically: Extracting hydrogen efficently from algea) with no significant avail. She now works for big corporation Del Monte Fresh working on bananas and pineapple, and earns about twice as more.

When you have to pay two kid's private-school educations, you tend to forget a little bit about saving the world one micrometer at a time. So please, governement funds, I beg you: give researchers a little incentive boost?

Thanks.

 

[Dumb Dude]

If by needless wars you mean the one America is in with the Middle Eastern terrorists than you are an idiot. That war isnt over oil, its over the fact that they ****in owned us on 911 and we cant let shit like that happen again. But i wont bring politics into this because I think thats just gay. The hydrogen concept is definitely a great idea though.

Last I checked Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11...

And about the topic....can I see a link to this very cool sounding info? I would like to read more on these cars.

 

[madog]

Last I checked Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11...

And about the topic....can I see a link to this very cool sounding info? I would like to read more on these cars.

So you think... It seems obvious the man was doing something wrong if he had earned Hitler-like status among his people (Putting them in wood-chippers, mustard gas, etc.). Even though Hitler was much cooler and had a way better mustache.
Im curious to see how hydrogen cars would work though. Post a link if you find more.

 

[NotATool]

So you think... It seems obvious the man was doing something wrong if he had earned Hitler-like status among his people (Putting them in wood-chippers, mustard gas, etc.).

Hitler wasn't connected to 9/11.

 

[madog]

Hitler wasn't connected to 9/11.

No really? I wasn't connecting the two. Or maybe...

 

[losermeetsworld]

There is not really much evidence to link Saddam to Al Queda.

There is NO proof of WMDs in Iraq.

There IS oil in Iraq.


Why are we there?

 

[NotATool]

No really? I wasn't connecting the two. Or maybe...

Premise: Saddam earned a Hitler-Like reputation among his people.
Conclusion: Saddam was connected to 9/11.

I'm sorry, I still don't see it.

 

[madog]

There is not really much evidence to link Saddam to Al Queda.

There is NO proof of WMDs in Iraq.

There IS oil in Iraq.


Why are we there?

To kick some ass.:sniper:
You would have to be blind to not see the terrorist situation in Iraq. Besides GWB already has more than enough oil, why would he need more. Anyways, continuing this arguement is pointless because what you or I or anyone else says is not going to change a thing.

 

[losermeetsworld]

Besides GWB already has more than enough oil, why would he need more.

Because he, his family, and his friends are all stockholders in most US oil companies, so the more oil we have/use, the more money he makes. :|

 

[NotATool]

To kick some ass.:sniper:
You would have to be blind to not see the terrorist situation in Iraq.

That's not a very slick poisoning of the well.

Besides GWB already has more than enough oil, why would he need more.

You aren't the least bit aware of the state of affairs concerning petroleum prices and such... :|

 

[madog]

Because he, his family, and his friends are all stockholders in most US oil companies, so the more oil we have/use, the more money he makes. :|

Thats what USA is all about; Capitalism. But, regardless of that, I don't think Bush is fighting over some oil. He's not the perfect president, but he's not into doing that kind of stuff. Besides it wasn't just his decision to go to war.

 

[madog]

That's not a very slick poisoning of the well.



You aren't the least bit aware of the state of affairs concerning petroleum prices and such... :|

Yes I am, but that still wouldnt be a motive for killing. Anyway this is getting stupid.

 

[staticprimer]

To kick some ass.:sniper:
You would have to be blind to not see the terrorist situation in Iraq. Besides GWB already has more than enough oil, why would he need more. Anyways, continuing this arguement is pointless because what you or I or anyone else says is not going to change a thing.

Stop, just stop. You're only making it worse for yourself.

 

[xcellerate]

weigh that up against how much better off more people and the environment will be in the future as it develop's, and surely you have a moral, green and economic winner, not to mention more alternate jobs will also be created.

...yea just like when we stopped creating cigarettes because they are extremely harmful to the people who use them and the people around people who use them, and they do nothing but waste money. Oh wait a minute, no we didn't. Because cigarette companies employ millions of people, and you just can't shut down production of one of the deadliest products sold because all those workers suddenly can't pay their electricity bill.

I guarantee you, that we will be on gas powered cars for as long as possible. Not only because of the jobs it secures but because we like things that are big and makes lots of noise. Which is why we are still producing 5.7l v8's in 4 door sedans, why do you think honda owners spend 100$ on mufflers that make a lot of noise. Don't tell me 'power' either, because if they really were concerned with power they would buy more than just a muffler, and the muffler they bought wouldn't have a tip 5" in diameter, yet the actual outlet for the exhaust is 2" (that's a whole other can of worms though). Why do you think we have the 'hybrid' and not the 'electric car', the VW TDi gets 49mpg, and its all motor, the hybrid is electric/gas and gets 49/51mpg AND has less torque than the diesel. We aren't ready to give up internal combustion yet.

 

[NotATool]

...yea just like when we stopped creating cigarettes because they are extremely harmful to the people who use them and the people around people who use them, and they do nothing but waste money. Oh wait a minute, no we didn't. Because cigarette companies employ millions of people, and you just can't shut down production of one of the deadliest products sold because all those workers suddenly can't pay their electricity bill.

That's the worst analogy I've ever heard :|.

Tobacco companies can't stop because there is a demand for cigarettes. If there was no longer a demand, they'd shut themselves down faster than Fox canceled Family guy.

When the cotton wheel was invented, India, at the time the dominant power in textiles, poopooed because they couldn't sustaine their monopoly over the market. "Oh well," thought everybody else, "screw India then." Now aren't you glad you don't have to pay $50 for every one of your t-shirts, or you still upset over a couple thousand hand-weavers lost their jobs 300 years ago?

That's just not how it works.

 

[madog]

That's the worst analogy I've ever heard :|.

Tobacco companies can't stop because there is a demand for cigarettes. If there was no longer a demand, they'd shut themselves down faster than Fox canceled Family guy.

When the cotton wheel was invented, India, at the time the dominant power in textiles, poopooed because they couldn't sustaine their monopoly over the market. "Oh well," thought everybody else, "screw India then." Now aren't you glad you don't have to pay $50 for every one of your t-shirts, or you still upset over a couple thousand hand-weavers lost their jobs 300 years ago?

That's just not how it works.

omg I just finished homework on the Industrial Revolution a second ago. How freakishly coincidental.

 

[NotATool]

omg I just finished homework on the Industrial Revolution a second ago. How freakishly coincidental.

Hah, that's neat.

 

[Shamrock]

Don't turn this into a political debate or else the thread will get closed.

 

[NotATool]

Don't turn this into a political debate or else the thread will get closed.

Then you'll only have a couple thousand other open threads to post in.

 

[xcellerate]

That's the worst analogy I've ever heard :|.

how is that a bad analogy? The other guys said, "how much better off more people and the environment will be in the future" as if the reason for hydrogen cars has nothing to do with gas prices. People wont buy hydrogen cars to make the grass greener, just like nobody buys hybrid cars to make the air cleaner. They will buy them because it costs them 63$ to fill up their s500.

Besides, give me a reason why cigarettes aren't illegal? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact the government taxes are like 3$ on each pack, plus the money it costs when you develop cancer from smoking for 20 years, i suppose it could also be because if they made them illegal then there would most likely be an uprising of all the addicts who are sad they can't slowly kill themselves anymore. It costs them probably $0.12 to make a pack of cigarettes and they sell for what, like $5?

Hmm, Chevron made $10.7 billion in profit the final quarter according to Yahoo finance. That's funny, that's profit, that's after everything is done, "The results pushed up Exxon's profit for the year to a staggering $36.13 billion." So...why do we pay so much for gas again? Oh yea, taxes, the government makes a lot of money off gas, let's check out California just for fun; $0.18 per gallon + 6% state tax + 1.25% county fee + additional local sales taxes and 1.2 cents per gallon state UST fee.

"The cost of making hydrogen from wind is $1.12 to $3.20 per gallon of gasoline or diesel equivalent ($3 to $7.40 per kilogram of molecular hydrogen)—on par with the current price of gas. But gasoline has a hidden cost of 29 cents to $ 1.80 per gallon in societal costs such as reduced health, lost productivity, hospitalization and death, as well as cleanup of polluted sites. So gasoline's true cost in March 2005, for example, was $2.35 to $3.99 per gallon, which exceeds the estimated mean cost of hydrogen from wind ($2.16 equivalent per gallon of gasoline)."

BMW world says, "The cost of hydrogen produced at a large SMR is approximately equal on an energy equivalent basis to gasoline at a refinery." Amazingly though, you will get better gas mileage according to MSN, yet i still see no reason why they would lower hydrogen prices.

I have a feeling even if we did go to hydrogen cars, prices would still remain about the same. Because why lower prices if people will/have to pay them? This would just lead to more profit at the end for the company. Diesel cars get better mpg than gas powered cars, yet diesel is..aww..look at that, according to gasbuddy.com diesel is $0.20 more expensive than gasoline at both diesel and gases cheapest points (gas is $2.15, diesel is $2.35) (highest is diesel at $2.59 and gas at $2.35)

 

[NotATool]

how is that a bad analogy? The other guys said, "how much better off more people and the environment will be in the future" as if the reason for hydrogen cars has nothing to do with gas prices. People wont buy hydrogen cars to make the grass greener, just like nobody buys hybrid cars to make the air cleaner. They will buy them because it costs them 63$ to fill up their s500.

It's a bad analogy because you presented a case in which demand, rather than technology, is the principal factor that would cause the industry's downfall.

Okay, people don't buy hydrogen cars to make the grass greener. Sounds like you're speculating to me, or do you have undisputed evidence you can read minds?

Is that even relevant? Maybe they won't buy it to reduce pollution, but it will either way. Now we have a chance of making a dent in current global warming trends, and we have incentive for the public. People losing their jobs won't affect the transition to cleaner fuels anymore than unemployed Indian weavers hindered the Industrial revolution.

 

[xcellerate]

Alright whatever, I’m wrong, when hydrogen cars come out chevron and Exxon are going to pull out from the gasoline car market, fire everybody they don't need, switch to producing hydrogen. BMW and Mercedes will stop making AMG and ///M motors, everybody will buy a hydrogen car because they get better MPG and the government will dance in the streets because the public is now saving money at the 'pump' and global warming has been slowed greatly. Yay for technology.

/thread

 

[NotATool]

Alright whatever, I’m wrong, when hydrogen cars come out chevron and Exxon are going to pull out from the gasoline car market, fire everybody they don't need, switch to producing hydrogen. BMW and Mercedes will stop making AMG and ///M motors, everybody will buy a hydrogen car because they get better MPG and the government will dance in the streets because the public is now saving money at the 'pump' and global warming has been slowed greatly. Yay for technology.

/thread

Hey, don't be bitter :|, consider yourself open-minded. Unlike me .

 

[MiccyNarc]

Governments profit too much from oil for us to ever get broken of our addiction to it.

 

[Sloth]

This will work, but too long in the future for me to guess when.

 

[clarky003]

Cheaper Greener more viable alternatives will be in stronger demand soon simply because oil and gas reserves are predicted to peak latest 2015, earliest 2007. As soon as production cant meet ever increasing demand the price will inflate so fast we wont have time to steadily ween off of oil properly.

Supply and demand as xcellerate said, you cant sustain the buisness and jobs if it is no longer profitable. The largest, most easily and profitably accessable oil fields left on the planet are in the middle east in and around the caspean sea.

At current rate of energy demand expansion more barrels have to be produced in the hundreds everyday just to keep up. Oil and gas will just disappear faster and faster, and even though loads maybe left.. the bulk is mostly located in remote areas of the globe that make it near impossible to get out of the ground and make sufficient profit in the process, the factors are increasingly complex and more dire than one might expect.

 

[NotATool]

Supply and demand as xcellerate said, you cant sustain the buisness and jobs if it is no longer profitable. The largest, most easily and profitably accessable oil fields left on the planet are in the middle east in and around the caspean sea.

I'm sorry? I was the one who pointed out the industry works on a supply and demand basis. :| Your post seemed to be an argument against Xcellerate, who claimed hydrogen fuel prices would not be any lower than gaz prices.

 

[Dan]

When you think about it, hydrogen cars are pretty stupid. Ultimately it's just running on an electric motor. Only instead of directly using electricity, we would be electrolysing hydrogen at about 50% efficiency, transporting that hydrogen costing more energy, and then converting that hydrogen back into electricity inside our cars and about another 50% efficiency. For a small weight gain you could just put in a lead acid battery and use the infrastructure we already have for distributing electricity. Or maybe go for some sort of denser battery structure like lithium ion. Although I don't know how much a giant lithium ion battery would cost.

Also it's impossible to replace all the cars in the world with hydrogen fuel cells because there simply isn't enough platinum in existence which is required in small quantities for one of the contacts inside the fuel cell.

 

[clarky003]

I'm sorry? I was the one who pointed out the industry works on a supply and demand basis. :| Your post seemed to be an argument against Xcellerate, who claimed hydrogen fuel prices would not be any lower than gaz prices.

No I was agreeing with axcellerate supply and demand keeps the buisness going, and gas and oil prices will increasingly get more and more expensive as supply dwindles and demand increases, so ultimately there will be a point sooner or later where hydrogen and other alternate energy technologies will be far cheaper than oil or gas, the change is inevitable, and it will probably be within our life time.

New hydrogen tech is always being developed, and will no doubt be easier in the future along with new solution's, and the efficiency compared to a normal petrol or deisel engine is far better considering combustion engines at present are roughly 32% efficient so a powerful hydrogen / fuel cell powered electric motor in the future will be a good option to have as an alternative.

 

[short recoil]

When you think about it, hydrogen cars are pretty stupid. Ultimately it's just running on an electric motor. Only instead of directly using electricity, we would be electrolysing hydrogen at about 50% efficiency, transporting that hydrogen costing more energy, and then converting that hydrogen back into electricity inside our cars and about another 50% efficiency. For a small weight gain you could just put in a lead acid battery and use the infrastructure we already have for distributing electricity. Or maybe go for some sort of denser battery structure like lithium ion. Although I don't know how much a giant lithium ion battery would cost.

Also it's impossible to replace all the cars in the world with hydrogen fuel cells because there simply isn't enough platinum in existence which is required in small quantities for one of the contacts inside the fuel cell.

Afaik fuel cell cars work out more efficient than straight hydrogen burning.
The cell gets far more useful energy out of the fuel, therefore even if only 60% if then transfered to the wheels via the electric motor it's more efficient.
Physically a rechargable battery will never be as good as a straight chemical to energy reaction in the vehicle "carrying around your own power station"

A hydrogen internal combustion engine is still pretty good, some vehicles would benefit from using either systems.
As you say platinium used as the catalyst in the cell is quite hard to get hold of, there is a company (can't remember name sorry) that has developed a more efficient way of obtaining it, with larger production it probably wouldn't be as prohibitvely expensive.