are .mdls in HL like SM's in unreal?

[poseyjmac]

im just trying to figure out somethings about hammer. in unrealed, you make your level with BSP geometry, and then things like chairs and tables, you make static meshes. or you make brushes then convert them to static meshes, which are rendered more efficiently for complicated things.

now are .mdls the same kind of thing? should i be following the same guidelines as i use when making ut2k3/ravenshield levels? make the rough geometry BSP based, then things like furniture should all be mdls? framerate is king when im making levels, so itd be nice to know. thanks for any help on this subject

 

[f-c-m]

I have asked that question time and time again, no one replies with a yes or no..the thread just stays dead.... dont ask me why..

I know hl2 will have static mesh's but HOW DO YOU USE THEM IN HAMMER!!!!!!!!!!! are they indeed mdl's!?!$!@$@

 

[Dux]

Models in Worldcraft (or Hammer as it is now referd to) can be the same yes. Models are used for things that the bsp geometry cannot handle, liek complex brushes and so forth.

If you have a complex brush you wan't to make, but know Worldcraft cannot handle it then thats when a Model comes in handy. Also helps to reduce r_speeds too.

 

[poseyjmac]

ok cool. thanks for the reply. hammer is starting to make a lot more sense now and i already like it better than unrealed.

 

[Papau]

Originally posted by f-c-m
I have asked that question time and time again, no one replies with a yes or no..the thread just stays dead.... dont ask me why..

I know hl2 will have static mesh's but HOW DO YOU USE THEM IN HAMMER!!!!!!!!!!! are they indeed mdl's!?!$!@$@

Same as Q3 Radiant. They don't have to be mdls.

 

[f-c-m]

papau...
if they dont have to be mdl's..

I assume they then must be somehow converted to brush's?
if that is the case, wouldnt a model even as complex as a round stool, be more taxing on the players system then that of a poly mdl?..

 

[Papau]

The BSP process converts all surfaces to triangles. Engines don't see brushes, they see triangle faces. Don't confuse models in newer engines with HL models. Models were added to HL after the compilers were finished, so it was decided to render them in real-time. They are not free. They don't show up in HL FPS stats, but the engine still renders them and the server must control them. There were certain efficiencies inherent to using this method, but anything you render on the screen costs you some performance. There is no such thing as free polygons.

All newer engines (including HL2) make extensive use of meshes. Static models are nothing more than meshes. Terrain is often mesh. There are simply too many mesh objects and entities to render in real-time. I have seen a number of maps with over 3000 mesh sections, I've even created one or two of them.

To answer your question about the stool would be impossible without a great deal of speculation. There are basically 3 types of meshes you could use to create a stool: manipulate simple patch mesh and create the stool in the editor; import an undefined static model; or import/use a static model defined as a named entity. The first two methods would exhibit identical performance "footprints". The last method would be given unique treatment by the engine, probably with regard to animation and culling amd would have a different performance footprint. I have heard that HL2 does not allow undefined static models; all imported models must be assigned to a class and the properties of the model are inherited from the class you defined them under. I don't know if this is true or just speculation.

But, the bottom line is if you render it on the screen, you will pay for the triangles and textures you use. No exceptions.

 

[f-c-m]

of course

of course, I realize this..

but for example, I make a chandelere , too complex to mess with hammer for.. so i use 3dsmax,
the way to properly make use of this in my map would be to convert it to an mdl with texture mapping already done etc.. and then it as a prop in my hl map ( hl2 map )

I hear right now this can be done in hl1's editor but without scaling capabilities and less control overit...
but in hl2, when i export the mdl I then assign it physical properties, put it in the map, and I will have more control over it?..
is this true?

 

[Papau]

All models may be scaled and rotated. Assignment of some physical properties requires the model be assigned as an entity or to a class of entities that is supported by code. Beyond that, I can only speculate about how HL2 will support models. Don't forget, a lot of control of a model is exerted by the shaders associated with the textures used.

 

[ToddTheFrog]

I know this is an extremely old thread but there is some good information in it. I have a similar question and I think it's a good thing to group similar questions in the same thread.

My question is if I have a wooden chair and I wanted to place 100 of these wooden chairs in HL2 would the textures for this model be put into the video memory 100x's or is HL2 smart enough to know to just load the texture one time.

My second question is for LOD. If I have two levels of detail, one being a fully bump mapped sky scraper with large textures and modeled pretty detailed, the second one being the same sky scraper with no bump mapping or anything, just a textured box, would this be a good strategy performance wise. Also what kind of performance loss are we looking at for bump mapping nearly everything that I possibly can.

Thank you for your time,

Todd

 

[JFry]

This is a pretty informative thread. To the question about the chair textures, hl1 only caches the texture once so I think it is safe to assume hl2 will do the same. About LOD I think that is exactly how it will be done. However making such a huge contrast between the quality might not look too smooth in-game. It could be possible to do several levels tho... Can't really help you with the performance thing, nobody knows the engine limits.

 

[ToddTheFrog]

This is a pretty informative thread. To the question about the chair textures, hl1 only caches the texture once so I think it is safe to assume hl2 will do the same. About LOD I think that is exactly how it will be done. However making such a huge contrast between the quality might not look too smooth in-game. It could be possible to do several levels tho... Can't really help you with the performance thing, nobody knows the engine limits.

Thank you for the fast reply! Very good information. I figured no one would really know about the bump mapping thing, I just thought I would throw it out there and hope for the best. I'm wanting to make some pretty bare sky scrapers and then on the lower 2 or 3 stories add the details mostly with bump mapping, but only if bump mapping is less of a performance hit then doing the details with polygons.

 

[Shinobi]

using bump mapping for details on huge things like skyscrapers usually looks pretty crap.... better to hash out some simple trim geometry...

 

[Ti133700N]

The problem with bump mapping is that it is often overused. I mean, bumpmapping is supposed to imitate the irregularities of a surface. If you want to give more details to a surface, you should set the depth of the bumps pretty low. Bumpmapping shouldn't be visible at a certain distance because it will look wierd. So, like Shinobi said, if you make skyscrapers (wich will probably be far away from the character) you shouldn't use bumpmaps. Stand at about 1-2 meters of a wall in your bedroom and look at it. Do you see bumps in it? It will more likely looks flat Now go right next to it (1 inch) and look at it again. You should now see the bumps. What i'm trying to say is that every surface has bumps but alot of em are only visible when you are very close to them. So for those surfaces you shouldn't make bumpmaps. If you want to round a surface or add alot more details in it, then you should use normal maps.

Edit: Todd, I have read your post a second time and I understand that the character will be close to the skyscrapers at the entrance so if you think bumpmapping will add something to the look, then alright make a bump map (especially if it is old). If you want to give it a clean look then i guess bumpmapping wouldn't add usefull details.