Armed robbers disguised in burkhas carry out £4,000 raid

[jverne]

Hi there, i decided to decrease my activity on HL2.net because it was clearly going out of hand. So i'll post less random, vague and meaningless threads from now on.

Here's some news that might be semi relevant to earlier threads of mine

Armed robbers disguised in burkhas escaped with thousands in cash after carrying out a post office raid in Paris.

The crime – which took place yesterday in the suburb of Athis Mons – comes as the French government faces growing calls for the controversial garments to be banned.

President Nicolas Sarkozy himself has described them as a ‘security risk’, saying they provide the perfect cover for criminals or terrorists.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...rmed-robbers-disguised-burkhas-raid-bank.html

Before you start accusing me of wanting to ban the burka...i'll remain indifferent, because obviously any debate will end in a slippery slope.

It could have been someone dressed in a Barney suit for all we care, however the burka is a (legitimate/legal) way of life that's why it is a more delicate issue IMO. Like i've said before...i'm not sure what to make of it.

 

[No Limit]

Because if we banned the burka these people clearly would have nothing else to cover their face with. And I love the fact that you still pretend to be indifferent to this issue.

 

[jverne]

Because if we banned the burka these people clearly would have nothing else to cover their face with. And I love the fact that you still pretend to be indifferent to this issue.

I knew you'd say that. You have to believe me...i'm really indifferent because exactly of the argument you gave.
Banning the burka would also mean we have to ban all other stuff that covers someones face. It's a delicate issue. I really don't have an answer.

 

[No Limit]

Yet you post this story as if it has something to do with this issue when you now seem to agree it doesn't.

 

[jverne]

Yet you post this story as if it has something to do with this issue when you now seem to agree it doesn't.

It is just some news that shows burkhas are a security threat materialized in Europe. Just plain observation. I haven't said anything about how to, if to, deal with them.
Because by fair standards all citizens should be treated equally.

Is there one law for all or isn't there? There can be NO exceptions to the law.
No one is allowed to walk around in the UK with a face disguise on, or with their identity withheld. It is not the law that should bend to accommodate minority beliefs, it is minority beliefs that should bend to encompass the law that all other UK citizens have to observe. When in Rome......

If this was real then maybe we could talk, but until then i really don't know what to make of it.

 

[No Limit]

So burkas are a security threat? I guess that scarfs with a hoodie are a security threat too?

 

[jverne]

So burkas are a security threat? I guess that scarfs with a hoodie are a security threat too?

Technically yes. Should we ban them in public places? See...it's not that easy anymore.

Some argue that the elevated security measures on airports increase security, a few don't. Where do you stand on this?

 

[VirusType2]

Because if we banned the burka these people clearly would have nothing else to cover their face with.

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to walk into a bank wearing a ski-mask - but you can wear a burka without raising an eyebrow.


Lets look at this [North Carolina Law]:

§ 14?12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.

No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

§ 14?12.11. Exemptions from provisions of Article.

The following are exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14? 12.7, 14?12.8, 14?12.9, 14?12.10 and 14?12.14:

(1) Any person or persons wearing traditional holiday costumes in season;

(2) Any person or persons engaged in trades and employment where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade or profession;

(3) Any person or persons using masks in theatrical productions including use in Mardi Gras celebrations and masquerade balls;

(4) Persons wearing gas masks prescribed in civil defense drills and exercises or emergencies; and

(5) Any person or persons, as members or members elect of a society, order or organization, engaged in any parade, ritual, initiation, ceremony, celebration or requirement of such society, order or organization, and wearing or using any manner of costume, paraphernalia, disguise, facial makeup, hood, implement or device, whether the identity of such person or persons is concealed or not, on any public or private street, road, way or property, or in any public or private building, provided permission shall have been first obtained therefor by a representative of such society, order or organization from the governing body of the municipality in which the same takes place, or, if not in a municipality, from the board of county commissioners of the county in which the same takes place.

 

[CptStern]

Hi there, i decided to decrease my activity on HL2.net because it was clearly going out of hand. So i'll post less random, vague and meaningless threads from now on.

Here's some news that might be semi relevant to earlier threads of mine



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...rmed-robbers-disguised-burkhas-raid-bank.html

Before you start accusing me of wanting to ban the burka...i'll remain indifferent, because obviously any debate will end in a slippery slope.

It could have been someone dressed in a Barney suit for all we care, however the burka is a (legitimate/legal) way of life that's why it is a more delicate issue IMO. Like i've said before...i'm not sure what to make of it.

while we're at it we should ban raincoats, ponchos, capes, mumus and judicial robes

 

[No Limit]

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to walk into a bank wearing a ski-mask - but you can wear a burka without raising an eyebrow.

I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal to wear a hoodie and a scarf in a bank? No? Then whats the difference?

jverne, so hoodies and scarfs are a security threat? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you because that sounds absolutely absurd.

 

[VirusType2]

This greatly more concealing than a raincoat, scarf, hoodie, etc. Be reasonable.

 

[No Limit]

This greatly more concealing than a raincoat, scarf, hoodie, etc. Be reasonable.

No, it isn't. A hoodie with a scarf will revel about the same thing.

So what's the difference? The difference is certain people don't like muslims and want to make life for them as difficult as possible. But since they don't want to appear like they are discriminating they'll make stupid excuses for their position such as the one seen in this thread.

 

[jverne]

I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal to wear a hoodie and a scarf in a bank? No? Then whats the difference?

jverne, so hoodies and scarfs are a security threat? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you because that sounds absolutely absurd.

Technically it is a security threat. Anything that conceals someones identity can be considered somewhat a security threat.
Also carrying knives with you is considered a security threat, even if you use that knife to peal apples. Knifes are banned in certain countries.
Everything is to some degree a security threat, where we draw the line is the big issue, few can really make good judgments about.
How you do not see this logic is really baffling.

while we're at it we should ban raincoats, ponchos, capes, mumus and judicial robes

Slippery slope argument.

Why exactly are knives prohibited on airplanes? Not everyone is a terrorist...why then?
Everything must have a right measure to it.

No, it isn't. A hoodie with a scarf will revel about the same thing.

So what's the difference? The difference is certain people don't like muslims and want to make life for them as difficult as possible. But since they don't want to appear like they are discriminating they'll make stupid excuses for their position such as the one seen in this thread.

You still haven't told me where do you stand on airport security?

 

[No Limit]

Technically it is a security threat. Anything that conceals someones identity can be considered somewhat a security threat.
Also carrying knives with you is considered a security threat, even if you use that knife to peal apples. Knifes are banned in certain countries.
Everything is to some degree a security threat, where we draw the line is the big issue, few can really make good judgments about.
How you do not see this logic is really baffling.

So do you understand how if I scream about how plastic forks are a security threat I would be considered a raging lunatic? I mean technically Im right, right?

You still haven't told me where do you stand on airport security?

Because this thread isn't about airport security. I don't see how my view on airport security has anything to do with this discussion.

 

[Solaris]

Another crap thread. If you want to debate the Burka Jverne, just come out and say it. Instead of hiding behind these news stories.

 

[jverne]

So do you understand how if I scream about how plastic forks are a security threat I would be considered a raging lunatic? I mean technically Im right, right?

Technically you would be correct, but that's what i meant by "right measure". Obviously screaming about plastic forks is exaggerated.
And i'm not screaming about burkhas, despite what you think.

Because this thread isn't about airport security. I don't see how my view on airport security has anything to do with this discussion.

Let me put it this way...are metal detector and x rays overkill? IMO they are not.
Is taking off shoes exaggerated? You tell me...
Is entering a bank wearing a concealed face a security threat worth worrying about? You tell me...

 

[No Limit]

Technically you would be correct, but that's what i meant by "right measure". Obviously screaming about plastic forks is exaggerated.
And i'm not screaming about burkhas, despite what you think.

The problem is "security threat" is a loaded word and you know it. It is no more a security threat than a hoodie and a scarf. So again, what is your point?

Let me put it this way...are metal detector and x rays overkill? IMO they are not.
Is taking off shoes exaggerated? You tell me...
Is entering a bank wearing a concealed face a security threat worth worrying about? You tell me...

No you tell me. The things you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the burka specifically, so again, what the hell is your point?

 

[CptStern]

Slippery slope argument.

nope it's a perfectly legit alternative to wearing a burkas. if I were muslim/terrorist and I couldnt wear a burka I'd just wear a judicial robe. so to be on the safe side ANY clothing that can be used to conceal a weapon or bomb should be banned. it's the only way it wouldnt be discriminatory but that would open up a can of worms because now everybody is affected not just the durkadurkas

Why exactly are knives prohibited on airplanes? Not everyone is a terrorist...why then?

oh I dont know probably because they tend to be sharp and stabby whereas you cant stab someone with a veil

Everything must have a right measure to it.

and this particular measure stops at raincoats, ponchos, capes, mumus and judicial robes. how is that not discriminatory?

 

[jverne]

The problem is "security threat" is a loaded word and you know it. It is no more a security threat than a hoodie and a scarf. So again, what is your point?

Yes. However, a burka has the religious element behind it which, could (i do not know if a case exist yet, but i wouldn't be surprised) be used as an excuse to be exempt from security measures.
The real issue with the burka is that it is a religious symbol that people can hide behind as a shield.

No you tell me. The things you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the burka specifically, so again, what the hell is your point?

What about going with a burka on an airplane? The panty bomber hid explosive in his underwear, how much undetectable explosive can be hidden under a burka or a trench coat for that matter? The difference is that when security would demand a trench coat to be inspected there wouldn't be a religious upheaval.

 

[No Limit]

Yes. However, a burka has the religious element behind it which, could (i do not know if a case exist yet, but i wouldn't be surprised) be used as an excuse to be exempt from security measures.
The real issue with the burka is that it is a religious symbol that people can hide behind as a shield.

What the hell are you talking about? Remember, we are talking about how the burka is a security threat. How does what you just said explain how the burka is more of a security issue than a hoodie and a scarf in the case of a bank robbery?

What about going with a burka on an airplane? The panty bomber hid explosive in his underwear, how much undetectable explosive can be hidden under a burka or a trench coat for that matter? The difference is that when security would demand a trench coat to be inspected there wouldn't be a religious upheaval.

Airport security doesn't have the right to inspect burkas? Oh they do? So again, what the hell is your point?

 

[jverne]

What the hell are you talking about? Remember, we are talking about how the burka is a security threat. How does what you just said explain how the burka is more of a security issue than a hoodie and a scarf in the case of a bank robbery?

I never said it is more of a security threat than a trench coat and hoodie/scarf. They are probably the same.
All that really bothers me is the religious element that can be used to protect it from scrutiny.

Airport security doesn't have the right to inspect burkas? Oh they do? So again, what the hell is your point?

I don't really know if they can or can't...i do have in my memory that sometime ago some muslims got enraged because a woman had to take her burka off or something. I'll try to find that, but i'm not 100% positive it went exactly like that.

What i want from you with this airport issue is...how much inspection should be authorized? I've seen videos where people had to take of their coats for inspection before boarding a plane...burkas would probably fall in the same category. However do you agree that inspecting concealing dresses is required on airports, therefore the burka should be no exception?

 

[Krynn72]

Slippery slope argument.

You do realize that Stern was saying that to point out the slippery slope fallacy of people arguing to ban Burkas, right?

 

[jverne]

You do realize that Stern was saying that to point out the slippery slope fallacy of people arguing to ban Burkas, right?

It goes both ways.

 

[No Limit]

I never said it is more of a security threat than a trench coat and hoodie/scarf. They are probably the same.
All that really bothers me is the religious element that can be used to protect it from scrutiny.

What is bothering you is imaginary and doesn't play in to this debate at all. You posted a thread about the burka being used to comit a bank robbery. In this discussion we found that the burka isn't any more of a security issue than a hoodie. So again, what is your point?

I don't really know if they can or can't...i do have in my memory that sometime ago some muslims got enraged because a woman had to take her burka off or something. I'll try to find that, but i'm not 100% positive it went exactly like that.

What i want from you with this airport issue is...how much inspection should be authorized? I've seen videos where people had to take of their coats for inspection before boarding a plane...burkas would probably fall in the same category. However do you agree that inspecting concealing dresses is required on airports, therefore the burka should be no exception?

I am telling you that they can. And you won't find any evidance to the contrary, so now you do know.

And I have never been asked to take my coat or hoodie off when I fly. Are you proposing that I should be?

 

[jverne]

What is bothering you is imaginary and doesn't play in to this debate at all. You posted a thread about the burka being used to comit a bank robbery. In this discussion we found that the burka isn't any more of a security issue than a hoodie. So again, what is your point?

The religious side, that's all that bothers me.
Specifically i don't have an example where the religious element was used in the process of exempting burkhas.
However there was that example where that boy was exempted of class due to religious obligations.
It doesn't take a leap of faith to go from one to another.
And you should have known burkhas were not really the crux of my earlier debates.

I am telling you that they can. And you won't find any evidance to the contrary, so now you know.

And I am not asked to take my coat off when I fly or my hoodie for that matter when I wear that. Are you proposing that I should be?

They can? Well then...we have nothing to argue about.

I don't know if you should be...personally i would like to have a better assurance i'd survive the plane flight. I'd personally would take my coat off if asked. However i wouldn't approve of stripping down to underwear or naked skin. Not that i'm shy but that is probably way too much for most people.
Security measures are all a matter of personal tolerance.
If i said i'd be willing to take my coat of and if that would be the law then i'd demand for burkas the same.
However if what you said that they can be taken off without any additional provisions...then we have no problem.

 

[No Limit]

The religious side, that's all that bothers me.
Specifically i don't have an example where the religious element was used in the process of exempting burkhas.
However there was that example where that boy was exempted of class due to religious obligations.
It doesn't take a leap of faith to go from one to another.
And you should have known burkhas were not really the crux of my earlier debates.

Ok. so the point is this has nothing to do with security but you simply don't like the religion. Thank you for finally admitting the obvious.

They can? Well then...we have nothing to argue about.

I don't know if you should be...personally i would like to have a better assurance i'd survive the plane flight. I'd personally would take my coat off if asked. However i wouldn't approve of stripping down to underwear or naked skin. Not that i'm shy but that is probably way too much for most people.
Security measures are all a matter of personal tolerance.
If i said i'd be willing to take my coat of and if that would be the law then i'd demand for burkas the same.
However you said they can be taken off without any additional provisions...then we have no problem.

So again this has nothing to do with the burka specifically, you are just looking for an excuse.

 

[jverne]

Ok. so the point is this has nothing to do with security but you simply don't like the religion. Thank you for finally admitting the obvious.


So again this has nothing to do with the burka specifically, you are just looking for an excuse.

I thought it was obvious that "bowing" down to religious practices was really the whole point of all my earlier threads. I even stated that in the first post of them.

Do i have to point out that you blew the burka issue totally out of proportions?



(off topic) Look what i came across when searching for that example previously mentioned:

Women police officers are being issued with headscarves to wear when they visit a mosque.

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2009/07/non-muslim-women-being-forced-to-wear.html

I believe it's not an official law, but IMO...an officer on official duty should be free to move around in standard issue uniform.

 

[No Limit]

Except you never mentioned anything about bowing down nor does that make any sense in the context of this thread. Remember, you posted about a burka being used to rob a bank. What in the world does that have to do with bowing down to the burka?

What did I blow out of proportion? You're the one that started this thread, I'm simply responding to it. And my response continues to be "what the hell is your point?". Something you are yet to really explain.

 

[jverne]

Except you never mentioned anything about bowing down nor does that make any sense in the context of this thread. Remember, you posted about a burka being used to rob a bank. What in the world does that have to do with bowing down to the burka?

I was referring to my earlier threads if you didn't notice?

What did I blow out of proportion? You're the one that started this thread, I'm simply responding to it. And my response continues to be "what the hell is your point?". Something you are yet to really explain.

In this thread you did the same...the moment i mentioned burkas you knee jerked about banning them.

Look, it's your first post

Because if we banned the burka these people clearly would have nothing else to cover their face with. And I love the fact that you still pretend to be indifferent to this issue.

Despite me specifically mentioning that i'm not for or against.

 

[jverne]

Haven't i really explained what my point is?

 

[Krynn72]

It goes both ways.

What do you mean? How is Stern's point that their argument is a slippery slope... a slippery slope itself? That makes no sense.

 

[jverne]

What do you mean? How is Stern's point that their argument is a slippery slope... a slippery slope itself? That makes no sense.

We can argue about how banning burkhas would drag along other conclusions or how completely ignoring it may end in other conclusions.
Without a good measure, both arguments are flawed per se.

 

[Krynn72]

But not via the slippery slope. Oh no we didn't ban burkas! Now we're on a slippery slope where we have precedent to not ban other things!

:|

 

[Escaep]

while we're at it we should ban raincoats, ponchos, capes, mumus and judicial robes

Maybe we should ban all clothes. o.0

 

[No Limit]

So if you were talking about your other threads why not go there so we know what the hell you are talking about? And I will go back and ask you what your point with this thread is because no, you haven't explained it.

And I dont know what in my responses makes you think this is a knee jerk reaction, its not.

 

[jverne]

So if you were talking about your other threads why not go there so we know what the hell you are talking about? And I will go back and ask you what your point with this thread is because no, you haven't explained it.

And I dont know what in my responses makes you think this is a knee jerk reaction, its not.

I didn't want to reopen that thread. But i think i was clear enough in this.
It:
-didn't contain an argument for a complete ban
-it did post an example of the misuse of the burka, which was lacking in previous ones
-burkhas are security threats, by concealing ones identity same as hoodies and scarfs
-it mentioned that burkas should not be exempt from current laws and practices
-and the main point of any of such threads that religion shouldn't demand any special care or privileges.


I can quote you on all of those, if you failed to notice these clearly visible points then i really can't help you.

I clearly said...if burkhas are not exempt from scrutiny then i have no problem and the argument is over.

 

[No Limit]

I didn't miss those points, I just don't understand why you decided to completely change subjects. The way a forum works is if you make a thread about a topic you should probably stick to that topic, not move on to something completely different that nobody was talking about.

I know you didn't make an argument for a complete ban, I was being snarky in my first reply to you. Its funny because the entire premise of the thread seems to be another reason (in your mind) to ban the burka but you won't just come out and say that.

Why is an example of the misuse of the burka important? If you are making an entire thread about it's misuse clearly you have some kind of point. What's your point?

And yes, you can make an argument that covering yourself can be a security concern in some rare instances, thank you cpt obvious. But bank robberies happen all the time where someone wore a hoodie and a scarf. How come no threads from you then?

Yes, you mentioned that burkas shouldn't be exempt from current laws. The problem is that this implies the burka is exempt when you have absolutely nothing to back that up. But even ignoring that what in the world does that have to do with a bank robbery where they wore a burka? Are you saying the bank shouldn't have let them in? Would that have stopped the armed robbery? I'm honestly not understanding the connection, please explain it to me.

 

[Noodle]

Why does it seem like every other debate on this forum ends up in a debate about the debate itself, resulting in irrelevant accusations of escapism and hypocrisy?

Because it's true, that's why.

 

[lame-o]

I think burqas should be translucent or something. Then all the muslim women would still be "covered" and considered decent, while everyone else could see their stupid faces.

Spoiler

I know who you are you goddamn bitch

 

[VirusType2]

certain people don't like muslims and want to make life for them as difficult as possible. But since they don't want to appear like they are discriminating they'll make stupid excuses for their position such as the one seen in this thread.

The president of France, Nicolas Sarkozy said that burqas are "not welcome" in France, commenting that "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity".[7] The French National Assembly appointed 32 lawmakers from right- and left-wing parties to a six-month fact-finding mission to look at ways of restricting its use.[8] On 26 January 2010, the commission reported that access to public services and public transport should be barred to those wearing the burqa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

Don't like Muslims? I just don't make the same connection. There is a dress code in law. In my city, it's technically illegal to walk around nude, or with anything that conceals my identity in public.