Belgium does great success, yes?

[Beerdude26]

Well, it's finally in action: since a few months, legal immigrants that wish to apply for social housing have to speak Dutch or French. If they do not, they are given free language courses.

A lot of political parties here ridiculed the idea and said it'd never work; the European Union said we were being downright discriminatory, but the results are pretty admirable: over 46,000 people have applied for it and no one has been denied yet.

If there's one thing I like, it's honest immigrant people that try and build up their life here without alienating themselves

Discuss.

 

[Solaris]

Where do they live whilst learning to speak?

 

[Beerdude26]

Where do they live whilst learning to speak?

In the house, but if they just say "**** off we stay in this house and don't learn your language" they lose several perks and services, aswell as receive less money if they're without a job.

 

[Solaris]

Seems reasonable but unnessacary.

I have no doubt, if language services are easilly available, immigrants will want to learn new languages.

This measure makes me suspicious of the motives for this move.

 

[Beerdude26]

Seems reasonable but unnessacary.

I have no doubt, if language services are easilly available, immigrants will want to learn new languages.

This measure makes me suspicious of the motives for this move.

Mainly because during the past two years, new immigrants were having a lot of issues getting jobs, so they had to resort to illegal jobs or illegal stuff in general.

This measure informs people the very instant they are interested in staying in Belgium long-term of the many teaching services available in Belgium. If you're without a job, you can go to a special school where you can study virtually anything at very cheap prices. Childcare and transportation (among other things) is also paid for by the state, so there's downright no reason to not study. The majority of the language courses are free, so no problems there either.

 

[CptStern]

wouldnt that create little pockets of immigrants and not much else ..I mean like a little italy or a "chinatown" or a "displaced former afghani terrorists now seeking to live abroad ..town"

I thought the goal of forcing someone to learn your language was to integrate them into society

 

[leib10]

delete post

 

[Insano]

Wouldn't suprise me if the Walloon parties found a way to use this to promote French in Brussels/Flemish border. The current situation sickens me. I follow politics on a daily basis, and the Walloon parties and media are downright demonizing any form of Flemish identity.

This thing is way too complicated to explain to a foreigner, seriously. We have seven parlements and six goverments, the minority dictates what the majority should do, gigantic money transfers without any controls for decades, ...

People see Belgium as the perfect example that federalism works. Trust me: it doesn't.

 

[Beerdude26]

wouldnt that create little pockets of immigrants and not much else ..I mean like a little italy or a "chinatown" or a "displaced former afghani terrorists now seeking to live abroad ..town"

I thought the goal of forcing someone to learn your language was to integrate them into society

Usually the houses are in existing towns, there aren't many immigrant-only towns.

 

[ríomhaire]

Making immigrants learn the bloody language of the county they're entering sounds like a damn good idea to me.

 

[CptStern]

Usually the houses are in existing towns, there aren't many immigrant-only towns.

I dont mean entire towns ..in new york there's little china ..in detroit there's little greece ..in Toronto there's little italy, little china, little portugal etc etc ..sections of the city that are predominately one ethnic group ..thankfully these areas have always been somewhat mixed ..so strolling through chinatown isnt a big deal for us white folk

 

[Solaris]

Making immigrants learn the bloody language of the county they're entering sounds like a damn good idea to me.

See this is why I am very very suspicious of these kind of measures.

They don't seem nessecary and they're also spoken about with this kind of "They should learn the bloody language" tone which urks me.

Why the need for the tone if they measure is not motivated for anti-immigration bigotry and racism.

If I proposed we started a scheme to "Encourage black youths to do some bloody work". You'd probably think I was a racist becuase of the way I described the scheme. I could try and defend myself saying I didn't hate black people, just any people who didn't work, but you wouldn't believe me, you'd be at the least, suspicious.

As this is why I am suspicious of the language those who introduce these unnessacary measures.

 

[nurizeko]

This thing is way too complicated to explain to a foreigner, seriously. We have seven parlements and six goverments, the minority dictates what the majority should do, gigantic money transfers without any controls for decades, ...

People see Belgium as the perfect example that federalism works. Trust me: it doesn't.

Wallonia can go join France and Flanders can go join the Netherlands, sorted.


As for immigrants, if they don't speak the language they shouldn't be moving to that particular country anyway.

 

[Solaris]

Wallonia can go join France and Flanders can go join the Netherlands, sorted.


As for immigrants, if they don't speak the language they shouldn't be moving to that particular country anyway.

Yeah, they should stay in their country and starve/live life of poverty/be tortured or killed for who they are.

The bastards.

 

[Llama]

Well i'm sorry, but if you move to a country where 95% of the population speak one langauge, you should damn well learn it. I wouldn't move to france and try to talk in english, i'd learn some french. To say it's un necessary is, without trying to offend, flat-out stupid.

 

[CptStern]

meh americans have been trying to force americanese everywhere they go:




"Hey Com-pa-dray, u-noe cer-vay-sa pour favours"

"Que?"

"just give me a god damn Budweiser, Pedro ...and is it too much to ask that I get a good old american cheeseburger? goddam foreigners stealing our jerbs

"carne de Burro senor?"

"Si Miguel, chop chop"



disclaimer: may or may not be an accurate american stereotype

 

[Slug Advisor]

Sounds about right, really. If someone's going there, they should damn well know the language.

However, you forgot one very important thing: Belgium doesn't exist.

 

[Operational]

Why the need for the tone if they measure is not motivated for anti-immigration bigotry and racism.

The way Beerdude describes it they aren't throwing immigrates out but helping/encouraging them to learn something which allows them to properly function in the society they live in.

 

[Insano]

Wallonia can go join France and Flanders can go join the Netherlands, sorted.

Do you really think it's that easy?

 

[Pesmerga]

I lived in Belgium for a year while traveling with my dad. I learned enough French to get by, I found it a very enlightening experience.

 

[The Monkey]

Do you really think it's that easy?

Explain the difficulties, then.

 

[Beerdude26]

Explain the difficulties, then.

Oh man how about you come to Belgium and me and Insano will give you a tour of Belgium (and its awesome beers of course), because it'll take too long to explain it all online

 

[The Monkey]

Well, if you're gonna split up I think it's only fair that you join France and The Netherlands. Otherwise it's one more country to memorize, and no one wants that. I understand that it's a problem with the capital, but it's not like Belgium is a very established nation-state with a strong nation identity, as I've learned talking to a lot of Belgian people over the last couple of months. The fact that Insano writes Flanders under his location instead of Belgium says a lot too.

Also, what the hell is up with the title? "Belgium does great success, yes?" What's that even supposed to say?

 

[Insano]

Explain the difficulties, then.

I'll try to give a little background sketch about Brussels, one of the biggers problems. I'll willing to explain a couple of other problem points if you're that interested, just ask.

Mind you that there's a history of centuries, where Flanders have time after time been supressed by other cultures (Spanish, Netherlands, Germans, ...). Also, "Flanders" used to be only the west of what is now seen as Flanders. Today, it means the Dutch speaking part of Belgium. This is agreed upon in the constitution. These borders are fixed. But not for the Walloons, I'll be coming back to this soon.

After WW2, everything Flemish was associated with the collaborationism. A lot of Flemish nationalists saw the Germans as their ally to obtain an independent nation. Of course, there was just as much collaborationism in Wallonia, but this was quickly "forgotten".

This brings us to one of the biggest question marks: Brussels. The language spoken by the majority there was a Dutch dialect, with a French-speaking minority: the aristocrats. Because of the oppression, everybody sent their children to French schools, and in one generation whole families transformed into French-speakers. This is up 'till today. This means there is a French-speaking enclave in Flanders (map: http://docs.portal.vlaanderen.be/channels/hoofdmenu/images/Image3.gif ).

Brussels has a bilingual status, with roughly 20% Dutch speakers remaining. Walloon parties do everything they can to keep this French majority. For example, there have been massive immigrations from French speaking foreign countries (old colonies from France), which kept French the dominant language. The problem is that there is now massive unemployment and criminality among these ethnic groups.

This doesn't mean that Brussels isn't important to Flanders, on the contrary. There is a massive group of Flemish people who work there, but don't live there. There are also the European institutions with all the eurocrats working there, which might leave when problems arise. Some see a Brussels DC in the future, with the EU controlling its own territory. The question then is if the EU is prepared to accept this city with its unemployment and its criminality.

Walloon parties are not in the slightest willingly to let Brussels go. They're even trying to expand the borders, which were fixed in 1962. There were border towns where there was a minority of French or Dutch speakers. A special arrangement was fixed where there would be "facilities" for the minorities. The idea was that they'd disappear after time. These facilities were abused by the French to move out of Brussels and go live in these facilities towns. They didn't even notice the difference, literally: they'd speak French there, could get all their legal documents in French, vote for Walloon parties, read Walloon new papers, watch Walloon television, and after some time - when enough other French speakers moved in - they could speak French to their neighboors etc. Today, many of those who live there don't even realise they live in Flanders.

Well, Walloon parties are demanding to have Brussels expanded with these towns where there is a French speaking majority, to create a corridor to Brussels. This is for - should Belgium split - they could demand to keep Brussels, because the two link together.

This is where one of the giant problems lie for Flemish nationalists: what to do with Brussels?

Oh man how about you come to Belgium and me and Insano will give you a tour of Belgium (and its awesome beers of course), because it'll take too long to explain it all online

Exactly. I tried to give a little summing-up of only one of the problems for a split. I haven't even started about the other, or what is currently wrong with this country, and look what a text I ended up with.

And talking about drinks... I'd love a Duvel

 

[Insano]

Well, if you're gonna split up I think it's only fair that you join France and The Netherlands. Otherwise it's one more country to memorize, and no one wants that. I understand that it's a problem with the capital, but it's not like Belgium is a very established nation-state with a strong nation identity, as I've learned talking to a lot of Belgian people over the last couple of months. The fact that Insano writes Flanders under his location instead of Belgium says a lot too.

Neither France nor Netherlands deserve us. Belgium is an artificial construction, and just when we get rid of it, you want to put us together with another country? Ethnic groups need their own country. If you force people against this nature, problems will arise. Look at all those African countries. Look at the Balkans. Look at Spain. There are dozens of other examples.

 

[The Monkey]

Thanks for the summary, Insano.

Neither France nor Netherlands deserve us. Belgium is an artificial construction, and just when we get rid of it, you want to put us together with another country? Ethnic groups need their own country. If you force people against this nature, problems will arise. Look at all those African countries. Look at the Balkans. Look at Spain. There are dozens of other examples.

Aren't the people of Flanders and the people of The Netherlands of the same ethnic group?

 

[Insano]

Thanks for the summary, Insano.


Aren't the people of Flanders and the people of The Netherlands of the same ethnic group?

It's hard to say. We have been in a union with the Netherlands several times: the Seventeen Provinces in the fifteenth and sixteenth century, and a short time between 1815 and 1830. There are definately things we have in common, but there are also a lot of differences. Flanders is seen as more friendly, bourgondic, etc. The nature of the people is also different. Flemish people are used to order (for example in school) and are seen as rather shy, compared to the Dutch, who are very loudly.

A certain part of Flemish nationalists (Orangists) want to a union with the Netherlands. Recent polls show that the Dutch definately like to see Flanders come to them. I don't see a future together. Let's not forget that the Dutch were profiting from Flanders between 1815 and 1830, just as the Walloon are today. Estimates are that there is a transfer of at least 8 billion euros a year to Wallonia from Flanders.

PS: Wikipedia has a whole article on the francizationof Brussels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francization_of_Brussels

 

[Insano]

Oh, and a little note to everyone who still has no idea where this is all about: don't worry. Even people who moved to Belgium and lived here for a couple of years have trouble understanding everything. Some of our media even write on some subjects that they are too complicated to understand for someone new, for example the electoral arrondissement Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde.

 

[Beerdude26]

Oh, and a little note to everyone who still has no idea where this is all about: don't worry. Even people who moved to Belgium and lived here for a couple of years have trouble understanding everything. Some of our media even write on some subjects that they are too complicated to understand for someone new, for example the electoral arrondissement Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde.

Dude a friend of mine who studies politics has explained it to me 3 times and it still confuses the hell out of me lol