Building a new computer, need lots of help!!

DSDchemE · Apr 27, 2005

Some of these questions have probably been asked before, but I didn't want to reawaken dead posts.

I am building a new desktop and would like to do it under 1200-1300 dollars. The cheaper the better. It'll be used mostly for school work and gaming, plus a bit of 3D modelling (as a hobby). Here's what I'm looking at (and the initial budget I've setting for each part):

a) 2 Gig RAM - <$200
b) DL DVD Burner - $40-60
c) 2x 200GB Hard Drives - $200
d) Pentium 4 3.2 GHz Processor or Equivalent - $250-350
e) Graphics (ATI Radeon) - <$300
f) Motherboard - <$100
g) Case (doesn't need to look good, probably be out of sight anyway) - <$100
I've already got an old CD drive and floppy drive

My questions:

1) Does "Supported Double Layer DVD+R9 Recording" mean a drive can burn double layered DVD's, or just read them?
2) Can you run Windows XP on AMD 64 processors? Do you need Windows XP 64-bit Edition?
3) Do AMD motherboards support PCI-Express graphics cards?
4) What processor socket should I use for the future (2-3 years down the road) or will I end up getting a new motherboard anyway?
5) How do I find out what size power source I need?
6) For RAM, would it make much difference whether I got 4x512 MB cards or 2x1 GB cards (since 4x512 would be cheaper)?

I'd rather spend less than more, and don't need the top of the line. I've been playing HL2 just fine at 30fps on a DirectX 7 compatible card, so I don't need 100+ frame rates for modern games, just to be able to play them at decent (medium, 50fps) settings. I'm usually too busy shooting to look at the graphics. I'll probably upgrade the graphics card in a year or so, anyway.

Any advice is welcome. If you know of good products within my budget, or alternates (such as AMD's instead of P4's) or something, please let me know. Any tips would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your help.

Pesmerga · Apr 28, 2005

a) 2 Gig RAM - <$200 You only need a gig
b) DL DVD Burner - $40-60
c) 2x 200GB Hard Drives - $200 that's alot of storage
d) Pentium 4 3.2 GHz Processor or Equivalent - $250-350 AMD 64 3000+ or higher, Socket 939
e) Graphics (ATI Radeon) - <$300 9800 Pro or the x800xt if you're looking for more power
f) Motherboard - <$100 nforce4 mobos are nice, wide selection with mobos though
g) Case (doesn't need to look good, probably be out of sight anyway) - <$100 don't get one for more than $50 unless it comes with a PSU and/or accessories

DSDchemE · Apr 28, 2005

Thanks for the quick response
A few more questions (based on the response)

a) 2 Gig RAM - <$200 You only need a gig

Should I get 2 x 512 cards or 1 x 1GB card?

c) 2x 200GB Hard Drives - $200 that's alot of storage

Good point maybe I'll change it to 2 x 120GB...I want two HD's though (I've had hard drives crash and want a good backup). 200 GB drives aren't much more expensive though (about $25 more), so maybe one of each.

d) Pentium 4 3.2 GHz Processor or Equivalent - $250-350 AMD 64 3000+ or higher, Socket 939

What brand is best (Winchester, Clawhammer, Venice)? How much better is the Athlon 64 3500+ than the Athlon 64 3200+ (assuming I don't overclock, since I don't want to risk damaging something)?

e) Graphics (ATI Radeon) - <$300 9800 Pro or the x800xt if you're looking for more power

Is the extra performance worth the extra cost ($100) for the X800XT vs the X800XL? And where do the x700 and x600 rank in performance compared with the 9800 Pro?

g) Case (doesn't need to look good, probably be out of sight anyway) - <$100 don't get one for more than $50 unless it comes with a PSU and/or accessories

I was planning to get one with the PSU and accessories, but I'm not sure what power PSU I'd need. Is there any way to find out?

Assuming I get a AMD Athlon 64 3200+ or 3500+, 1 Gig RAM, and a PCI-Express graphics card (which I'm leaning toward), how does this motherboard look? VVV
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813180068
Finally, how are onboard sound cards these days (qualities not vital, but should be decent)?

Pesmerga · Apr 28, 2005

DSDchemE said:
Thanks for the quick response
A few more questions (based on the response)

Should I get 2 x 512 cards or 1 x 1GB card?
2x512 seems to work well, dunno if there's a huge difference. Besides, if one dies you don't need to replace it immediately.

Good point maybe I'll change it to 2 x 120GB...I want two HD's though (I've had hard drives crash and want a good backup). 200 GB drives aren't much more expensive though (about $25 more), so maybe one of each.
Sounds good

What brand is best (Winchester, Clawhammer, Venice)? How much better is the Athlon 64 3500+ than the Athlon 64 3200+ (assuming I don't overclock, since I don't want to risk damaging something)?
I got the Winchester, can't say from experience but I was told the Winchester was the way to go. Again, probably not a huge difference anyway

Is the extra performance worth the extra cost ($100) for the X800XT vs the X800XL? And where do the x700 and x600 rank in performance compared with the 9800 Pro? Well I would either go for one or the other for AGP cards. PCI-E I can't really tell you much about, although if you're willing to spend the cash, the x800xt is much better than the 9800pro for agp cards.

I was planning to get one with the PSU and accessories, but I'm not sure what power PSU I'd need. Is there any way to find out? 400W is plenty if you're not stockpiling your case with lights and doodads

Finally, how are onboard sound cards these days (qualities not vital, but should be decent)?
The onboard sound has worked fine in my experience, but you'll be needing a PCI card if you're looking to do complex edits and record / rip sound. I suggest onboard if you're not huge on sound, although an audigy would complement any gaming system well.

6charrrrrr

holydeadpenguins · Apr 28, 2005

The 3500 is the highest clocked winchester (winchester gives a miniscule performance benefit but uses less power and produces less heat) Also for video card you should get an X800Xl, it performs as well as the 6800gt but for less than 300 dollars on newegg.com. For your motherboard you should get an nforce 4 ultra. Onboard sound is not reccomended, the interference you get from other mother board components is small but can get really bad. Whenever i had a powerful electronic device near my pc i'd start to get weird sounds. I reccomend an audigy 2.

Killing2Live · Apr 28, 2005

Make sure you get a high quality PSU(very underrated) like a Antec TruPower or a Enermax Noisetaker.

Asus · Apr 28, 2005

Yeah you will want to go with 2x512MB for memory. You will probably aim for PC3200 with CAS latency of 2.5 (3 is worse).

3200+ or 3500+ would be fine. You will probably want to go with Socket 939. Just make sure your CPU and Motherboard match sockets.

A good brand for the Power Supply is a must IMO. It's what powers the system and I know I wouldn't want to risk the unit going out. Sometimes when they go out, they take some parts with em, like the board (happened to my friend). Antec, Enermax or Thermaltake would be good choices. Antec has a few cases that come with Powersupplies.

If you choose the 200$ price range and AGP then I would go with the 6600GT over the 9800Pro. If you want the best possible value (most performance without spending 400-500$) then check out the X800XL. There is both an AGP and PCI-Express version.
You won't be picking PCI-Express or AGP based on performance but on upgradability (if you want that).
X800XL Prices:
Compusa and Newegg
GFX Card Performance A 9800Pro would be about the same as the X700Pro or less (depending if the 9800Pro was 256Bit or 128Bit).

Personally, I would rather have an Athlon 64 3200+ and an ATI X800XL over an Athlon 64 3500+ and a 9800/6600GT. That's if you had to cut something. It will make more of a difference with most games.

NetGuru42 · Apr 28, 2005

DSDchemE said:
1) Does "Supported Double Layer DVD+R9 Recording" mean a drive can burn double layered DVD's, or just read them?
2) Can you run Windows XP on AMD 64 processors? Do you need Windows XP 64-bit Edition?
3) Do AMD motherboards support PCI-Express graphics cards?
4) What processor socket should I use for the future (2-3 years down the road) or will I end up getting a new motherboard anyway?
5) How do I find out what size power source I need?
6) For RAM, would it make much difference whether I got 4x512 MB cards or 2x1 GB cards (since 4x512 would be cheaper)?

Any advice is welcome. If you know of good products within my budget, or alternates (such as AMD's instead of P4's) or something, please let me know. Any tips would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your help.

1) write
2) it will run Windows XP (either home or pro), however Windows XP Pro 64-bit edition will be coming out soon, which (supposedly) has performance benefits for those of us that own 64-bit procs.
3) yes - I know ASUS and MSI make some very good quality AMD mobos w/ PCI-E... especially their nForce4 chipset-based ones. I recommend the ASUS A8N-E or A8N-SLI Deluxe depending on your needs
4) Socket 939 (new AMD 64s)seems to be the most future-proof at this point, however, don't expect it to last more than another year... 2 at the most.
5) There are charts available online... here's a link to the one I use. http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/articles/guides/Power_Supply_Guide_2.html oh, and figure around 100 Watts for the AMD64s.
6) not much, since you'd have dual-channel both ways... however like previous posts suggested, 2x512 would be much more money-efficient

last bit of advice...
1) GET AN AMD64 PROC. DO NOT get Intel. (just like the good people before me have said)
2) If you get an ASUS mobo (as I certainly recommend) external audio such as the Audigy 2 is NOT required, although it would be nice, it's just an added expense. The onboard sound on ASUS mobos is excellent.
3) get an ATI if you get a standard PCI-E mobo, get two nVidias if you get an SLI mobo.
4) Buy everything on NewEgg. You save money, and you get awesome customer appreciation gifts with the stuff! (he he)

Good luck, let us know! :cheers:

DSDchemE · Apr 28, 2005

Thanks for all the help. Here's what I've (tentatively) decided on:

Motherboard:
MSI K8N Neo4-F Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130491
^^^Seems to have a decent on-board sound card

Processor:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Winchester Integrated into Chip FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103494

Memory:
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Unbuffered DDR 400 (PC 3200) System Memory
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145440

Graphics Card:
ATI Radeon X800XL 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express x16 Video Card
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102509

Hard Drives:
SAMSUNG SpinPoint P Series SP1213C 120GB 7200 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822152017

Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 3.5" Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148033

DVD-Burner:
LG White 16X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 4X DVD+R DL 16X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 5X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 40X CD-R 24X CD-RW 40X CD-ROM 2M Cache IDE DVD Burner
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827136047

Case:
RAIDMAX ATX-268WSP Silver Steel Gaming Tower Computer Case
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811156019

Maybe a few extra fans (if needed)

The link NetGuru42 posted says I'll need about 340W, then should multiply that by 1.8, which gives me >600W. Do I really need that much? It seems kinda high (and expensive). What do you think?

NetGuru42 · Apr 28, 2005

DSDchemE said:
The link NetGuru42 posted says I'll need about 340W, then should multiply that by 1.8, which gives me >600W. Do I really need that much? It seems kinda high (and expensive). What do you think?

A 480W should be fine. Look at Antec's TruePower series, or the NeoPower 480. They should both be great for your computer. (The x1.8 thingy is kinda excessive, put it within reason, like around x1.4 or less, even. That extra x1.8 is just for flexibility and to account for abnormal cards, since all of their guesstimates are generalizations.

Also, check up on that ATI X800XL. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the X800XL is AGP only. Then again I may be mixing that up with the X800XT. Anywayz, good luck.

Asus · Apr 28, 2005

I would suggest 400+ Watt PSU. You will want a Powersupply that has a 24Pin connector to the motherboard (not 20).

MSI is a really good company as well. This board series as done really well.

I might recommend for you to get one IDE drive (the drive Windows will be installed on) because there are extra steps involved if you use a SATA drive. Basicly the Windows disc doesn't know what SATA is so you have to use a floppy with drivers on it to put Windows on a SATA drive. With IDE, it's just boot to the Windows CD and you are on your way.

Asus · Apr 28, 2005

NetGuru42 said:
Also, check up on that ATI X800XL. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the X800XL is AGP only.

The X800XL was orignially PCI-Express only. Since then they have released an AGP version.

Pesmerga · Apr 28, 2005

Pardon me for a thread hijack, but are PSU brands really contrasting in performance?
This is the one I'm getting... http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/11-209-002-09.JPG

Comes with the case...although I'm looking for a reason to buy a cheaper case, although this is a nice price ($58 for atx w/2 fans & keyboard / speaker / mouse combo).

ACLeroK212 · Apr 28, 2005

Pesmerga said:
Pardon me for a thread hijack, but are PSU brands really contrasting in performance?
This is the one I'm getting... http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/11-209-002-09.JPG

Comes with the case...although I'm looking for a reason to buy a cheaper case, although this is a nice price ($58 for atx w/2 fans & keyboard / speaker / mouse combo).

I don't know anything about that brand of PSU, but I had a really bad experience with a PSU last summer that was included with the case I got. It burnt itself out after only 2 weeks (despite having more than enough power) and took a hard drive and cd-burner drive with it (luckily they were both old drives I was using for backups and place holders until I could replace them). Bought a Thermaltake PSU afterwords and it's been running silky smooth ever since. So be wary if it's a bundled value pack case with included power supply. Don't even bother second guessing, just go with something more reputable. IMO choosing a brand that has a good reputation for making quality PSUs is just as, if not more, important than the wattage. It always seems to me like the PSU is the most underated piece of equipment people select when building a new system. They always go for the cheapest that appears to supply enough power . Quality is extremely important.

Asus · Apr 28, 2005

There are a number of things that can be different between a cheap PSU and a good PSU, even if the Watts and Amps are the same.

Such as how stable the voltages are, especially under load. Dependability of the unit. Quality of parts used to make the PSU. etc

A powersupply does a very simple job, supply power to the machine. That's probably why you are wondering. But it's such an important job. That's the unit the whole machine depends on. If the voltages waver or if the PSU doesn't supply enough amps that would cause the machine to crash. If the parts used are cheap then the chance of failure is too high. That isn't something that I would risk as it isn't always just the PSU that goes out when they die. It becomes much more costly then actually buying a good PSU in the first place. Not to mention the down time.

DSDchemE · Apr 28, 2005

ASUS, with regards to the IDE drive, I'd prefer having Windows on the fastest drive. I found the following site with installation instructions:

http://www.hothardware.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=18&threadid=22321&enterthread=y

If that's all I need to do (insert the floppy when it asks), I feel that I can manage installing Windows, especially when it's a one time (or at least very rare) occurance. I feel that I'm pretty good with computers, having installed hardware before.

However, are there any other difficulties present with just using SATA drives?

Also, you mentioned earlier that ThermalTake is a good brand. Their PSU's seems to have all good reviews, and the only complaint is about the noise (and only if the fan is turned up to full). However, I also noticed that it's about half the cost of Enermax or Antec. Does this mean the quality is much lower? As I'm trying to save money (I'm a student), would this be a reliable PSU for me? Also, should I have active PFC? Also, how do I check if a PSU has a 24-pin connector?

http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817153007
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817153009
^^^Has active PFC
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817153020
^^^Has 24-pin adapter, but no PFC

Lastly, in the "Guide to Building a PC" it mentions a heatsink/fan for the CPU. Will this one work?

SCYTHE ACS64U 90mm Cooling Fan
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185110

And will I be able to boot of the DVD-Burner (someone mentioned it in that post)?

holydeadpenguins · Apr 28, 2005

Sata will give you less difficulties than PATA. Remember to put every drive on a different cable. Having drives on the same channel makes drive to drive copying extrememly slow. It takes 40 minutes just to install call of duty.

DSDchemE · Apr 29, 2005

Thanks for all the great help. I think these are my last few questions:

1. Can I boot windows off a DVD-burner (to install)?
2. The "SCYTHE ACS64U 90mm Cooling Fan" (<<link) seems cheap (cost-wise), and has good reviews. Does the quality matter that much for a CPU fan, and if so, what is the least (cheapest) I should get (assuming I don't overclock)?
3. What does PFC mean (for PSU's)? Do I need it?
4. Is ThermalTake a decent brand of PSU? What about this one? (>link<)
5. Do I need expensive case fans? I saw a 6-pack for $9 (with decent reviews), would those work?

Sorry for the near double/repeat post, but I think these are my last questions (so I should be able to leave you alone after they are answered).

ACLeroK212 · Apr 29, 2005

The THERMALTAKE Silent Purepower W0014RU ATX 480W Power Supply is the PSU that I ended up going for. I really like it. It's a tad loud if you crank up the secondary adjustable fan all the way, but I maintain good temps without it so I've had no problems.

Asus · Apr 29, 2005

You can boot off some DVD drives, but not all. Best to use a CD-ROM or CD-RW drive.

If you don't plan to OC then the one that comes with the Retail CPU should be fine. If you want to OC you may want a different fan. Although I managed to OC my A64 3000+ (2GHz) CPU to 2.3GHz on the stock heatsink/fan. And I didn't even raise the voltage. =p

PFC is just a way to make Powersupplies more efficent. You should look at the efficency rating for that though. It just gives you an idea if it will be using more or less power when Idle.

Thermaltake is a decent brand. They seem to have done well with their power supplies although the one you link to has most of it's power on the +3.3 and +5 rails while the +12 is a bit low for PSU with that Wattage. (look at the sticker on the side of the unit, +12V rail has 18Amps). It would do it but I'd look at some others that way it will be powerful enough to hold you over when you upgrade.

+12V rail is the most important one.
Expensive case fans? no Unless you are buying fans because they are quiet.

DSDchemE · Apr 29, 2005

Two more questions:

1. Do all CPU's come with heatsink/fans? The one I was considering didn't mention one:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Winchester Integrated into Chip FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor
If that doesn't have a heatsink/fan, what is a cheap heatsink/fan you'd recommend (or should I get the Clawhammer Retail CPU)?

2. Is this a better power supply?
Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-500 ATX12V 500W Power Supply 100Vac to 240Vac +/- 10% TUV, UL, CUL, CE, CB, FCC - Retail

Cole · Apr 29, 2005

I have a question on PSU's.
http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_info.php?cPath=38_57&products_id=157

I like the ability to connect only the cables I need(No extra wires).
Just a nice, quite, powerfull, and wont get in the way when going into my computer.

NetGuru42 · Apr 29, 2005

DSDchemE said:
Two more questions:

1. Do all CPU's come with heatsink/fans? The one I was considering didn't mention one:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Winchester Integrated into Chip FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor
If that doesn't have a heatsink/fan, what is a cheap heatsink/fan you'd recommend (or should I get the Clawhammer Retail CPU)?

2. Is this a better power supply?
Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-500 ATX12V 500W Power Supply 100Vac to 240Vac +/- 10% TUV, UL, CUL, CE, CB, FCC - Retail

1) No, they don't. What you will notice with ALL of the AMDs (not exactly sure about Intels) is that anything with "Retail" after the name is slightly more expensive than "OEM" after the name... however the Retail ones, unlike the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer, if you care to know) come with Heatsinks and Fans with the processor. If you see one (such as the one you have linked to here) with "OEM" tacked onto the name, there WILL BE NO HEATSINK/FAN INCLUDED. If it were up to me, I'd just expend the tiny bit of extra cash to buy the Retail version of the same processor, however the performance benefits are so slim, the clawhammer would do just as good of a job. Either one is fine.

2) All of the thermaltake power supplies are good, just like Antecs, so the difference is really just personal preference, possibly some technical... but in the real world, those two brands are the same in quality. I prefer Antec simply because I have used them exclusively for so long, without problems. Go for this one knowing that it WILL work and be a quality power supply, but the thermaltakes will probably work just as well.

NetGuru42 · Apr 29, 2005

Minerel said:
I have a question on PSU's.
http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_info.php?cPath=38_57&products_id=157

I like the ability to connect only the cables I need(No extra wires).
Just a nice, quite, powerfull, and wont get in the way when going into my computer.

That is an excellent power supply. By all means get that. Another one to consider (I can't help but support my diehard Antecs, lol) would be the Antec NeoPower 480. My personal favorite, it earned the "Kick @$$ Product" award this year. Check it out here. I have one, and trust me, it's silent... and deadly awesome. http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=24480

:cheers:

DSDchemE · Apr 29, 2005

Yea! I'm almost done planning out my comp. All I have left is to pick the case. The ones I'm leaning toward are the following:

CODEGEN C-6209-C9-38C-W Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case – Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811182048

RAIDMAX ATX-268WB Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case – Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811156018

MAXTOP Signature CSX-147K2F NO PS Gray Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811150017

I'm leaning more toward the Codegen, but what do you think?

NetGuru42 · Apr 30, 2005

DSDchemE said:
Yea! I'm almost done planning out my comp. All I have left is to pick the case. The ones I'm leaning toward are the following:

CODEGEN C-6209-C9-38C-W Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case – Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811182048

RAIDMAX ATX-268WB Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case – Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811156018

MAXTOP Signature CSX-147K2F NO PS Gray Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811150017

I'm leaning more toward the Codegen, but what do you think?

All of these cases should work fine for you. A little on the cheap side, so I'd be concerned about durability. My experience with the cheaper cases on NewEgg is that they do a good job with them and they are nice cases, but FedEx manages to damage the cheaper-quality materials quite often in shipping. I once had to return (I kid you not) 7 of the same case in a row before I finally gave up and just spent the extra money for a better quality case (that also came in better packaging) so that I would have a case arrive in once piece.

For that reason I recommend that you spend a little extra money and get a little higher quality case. I know those brands you listed (except for MAXTOP, I've never done anything with their cases) are good quality brands, but I wouldn't take chances where only $10-20 is concerned. You might look at something like this: http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129152 I now purchase this case for my clients VERY consistently because it has such great airflow, quality parts, and great looks. It's also very quiet, which is a definite plus. You may not want to consider this particular one, but I encourage you to browse newegg for a slightly higher-priced case, like $45 or above. I don't think you'll regret it.

:cheers:

Cole · Apr 30, 2005

Thx Netguru

.

Building a new computer, need lots of help!!

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