Capitalism VS Socialism?

[Tyguy]

I am taking a class entitled "Philosophical Problems of Economic Justice" and figured I would ask you of your opinions. What do you think are the pros and cons of socialism and why do many westerners have a general distaste for it. Also, why do you think many people dislike capitalism?

 

[Stigmata]

We have a distaste for Communism thanks to the Red Scare in the 50's and 60's, and all the anti-Communist propaganda that we were put through.

I don't have time right now to list the pros and cons of each, but I'll just say I'm more of a Communist than a Capitalist.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I am gonna explain pure capitalism and pure socialism as well as I can, keep in mind that although I will try to be unbaised it is unlikly I will succeed in that, take my views in mind. I prefer a mix of both, although a little more of socialism.


Socialism

You will have to understand that there is no such thing as one kind of socialism, instead we have several different versions of it. Variants include, but is not limited to: Marxism, Democratic Socialism, Stalinism and Maoism.

"Pure" Socialsm has as its ultimate goal to achieve highest possible equality. Keep in mind that any form of dictatorship goes against marxism and democratic socialism, but not stalinism and maoism.
This is achieved by first and foremost by economic equality by making sure that pretty much every proffession gets the same pay, this is done by making means of production and almost everything that provides a service public property.

Pros:
The idea is that people should do what they want to do for a living instead of doing what makes the most money. This should lead to increased happiness.
Racism and sexual inequiality goes against the foundations of socialism.
The economic equality should lead to increased living standards for the average person.

Cons:
State might be forced to put limits on a persons ability to select proffessions due to complete freedom in that area might lead to shortage in unpopular proffessions.
Economic growth very dependant on the skill of the government.
Planned economies are slow to adapt to changing economic climates. Not so much an issue if the entire world was pure socialist.



I would say that the main reason socialism is unpopular in the west is due to cold war propaganda.

Capitalism

In its pure form it is basically complete economic freedom.

Pros:
Exploits the greed possesed by many humans to encourage economic growth.
"The Invisible Hand" phenonema makes sure any shortage of a proffession is temporary at best.
Requires minimum goverment intervention and control.
Encourages worker efficency.

Cons:
Encourages greed.
Low-level employees may recieve very low wages, as the system encourages giving as low wages as possible.
Encourages focus on short term gain, which might be bad for the long term (Corporations ignoring the threat of global warming is a prime example of this).

 

[The Monkey]

80% capitalism
20% socialism

is the way to go, IMO. Or possibly 75/25.

Capitalism must be the basis of any good economy, as Communism oppress creativity and talent of people and is therefore a threat not only to personal happiness and well-being, but also to progress of the human race.

Neo-liberalism however produces unreasonably big social and economic gaps and creates large amount of povery and inequality in certain sectors of society. To ensure equal oppertunity and an economic and social safety net, we therefore need to have high taxes and a large welfare state.

 

[Sloth]

I've just polished off watching Fight Club so i'm Socialist to the core at the moment.

 

[Gunner]

You should take your research to a library and not an internet gaming forum populated mostly by people who live with their parents.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You could just read some stuff. READ STUFF.

Alternatively, search out all the arguments between myself and repiV, or Solaris and repiV, in the politics forum?

 

[Tyguy]

You should take your research to a library and not an internet gaming forum populated mostly by people who live with their parents.

A. Shut up
B. There are alot of intelligent individuals in here, why cant I ask a question about politics....in the politics forum?

If you cant participate intellectually, im sure there are some greats threads in the Half-Lfe 2 subcategory. GO FOR IT! :bounce:

Edit: This is not a shortcut to learn the material, its more of an opinionated question, I want to know why someone supports a specific form of government.

 

[PvtRyan]

Communism = silly utopian pipedream that leads to very bad things.

Capitalism = realistic and turns out to work great in practice.

Capitalism may be a selfish and harsh, but in that respect it's a lot like Darwinian evolution. Your genes don't "care" about anything else than reproducing, they don't care about you or your happiness. But to meet that ends it will do anything that increases its chance of survival. While genes may not care about being social and nice, a social species that cares about others has an evolutionary advantage over the same kind of animal that doesn't. So while the genes are selfish, it's capable of producing altruistic creatures. The same goes for capitalism, a company has the selfish goal of enriching itself, but you can't do that when you don't act social. A company may not care about you all that much but it's in their interest to act social towards its customers. A company that acts social has a huge advantage in survival over one that doesn't. 'Natural' selection also has a favorable effect on development, companies compete with each other over the same market and the one that meets the demands of the customers best survives. While in communism, there is little incentive to do anything at all.

Communism is just a bad idea, sure it's nice if it WOULD work, but it fails to take into account the very basic nature of humans. Capitalism IS human nature, with its good and bad sides. Communism is no different than saying "we would have world peace if everyone threw down their weapons and hugged eachother". No shit, but the world doesn't work like that.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I agree with Ryan.

 

[Gunner]

A. Shut up
B. There are alot of intelligent individuals in here, why cant I ask a question about politics....in the politics forum?

If you cant participate intellectually, im sure there are some greats threads in the Half-Lfe 2 subcategory. GO FOR IT! :bounce:

Was just trying to help you. Way to be an ass gg!

 

[Absinthe]

Ryan done did it.

Capitalism for sure.

 

[No Limit]

You should take your research to a library and not an internet gaming forum populated mostly by people who live with their parents.

Speak for yourself.

As far as the topic goes, both are bad if they are applied exclusively. Pure socialism has been proven to not work. When you have pure capitalism on the other hand wages drop, jobs go to cheap overseas markets, you get lead in your toys, etc...

 

[Sulkdodds]

A. Shut up
B. There are alot of intelligent individuals in here, why cant I ask a question about politics....in the politics forum?

If you cant participate intellectually, im sure there are some greats threads in the Half-Lfe 2 subcategory. GO FOR IT! :bounce:

Edit: This is not a shortcut to learn the material, its more of an opinionated question, I want to know why someone supports a specific form of government.

I was about to say, he is kinda right - it's a good idea to read, if not some original 'source' texts (ie Marx's Capital, not many equivalents for capitalism heh), some books with titles like "An Introduction to Marxism" or whatever.

 

[Tyguy]

I was about to say, he is kinda right - it's a good idea to read, if not some original 'source' texts (ie Marx's Capital, not many equivalents for capitalism heh), some books with titles like "An Introduction to Marxism" or whatever.

Why am I assumed not to read up on it? I asked based on personal opinions. It is a very valid question.

 

[Asknoone]

Ryan hit the nail on the head. Go Capitalism.

 

[Solaris]

As you probably know, I am a socialist.

It's sad that so many people have misconceptions of what socialism is. In history class(A2) I regularly hear comments such as " Communism says every one is equal but then some people must be 'more equal than others '(if only they knew, Orwell who coined the phrase, was a socialist) in order to be in charge"

Or similar rubbish. It saddens me that people, surrounded by so much poverty in the world do not show the slightest bit of interest in an alternate economic system when under the current one, billions live in poverty. It depresses me. It's obvious capitalism isn't working, yet why are people so loyal to it, don't they read about sweatshops, children starving to death, factory workers burning to death because fire exits are closed ect.

Alas, I regress. I am a socialist because I believe, if brought up in a fair, socialist society. People will be co-operative, actively try and help others and the state, selfishness will be frowned upon. We will all work together for each other, rather than for ourselves and for those who employ us.

I've read a lot of theory, and it is in my opinion sound. It makes me angry deep down that everyone isn't a socialist because I daily see things that shouldn't be happening and wouldn't in a socialist society.

I grow very tired of debating socialism with people who haven't read or understood it's basic premises.
Marxism is an economic theory, many respectable people hold Karl Marx to be one of the greatest intellectuals mankind has ever seen, he analysed society and capitalism to a degree that no-one ever had before. Yet for some reason, people feel they don't need to understand the theory to argue against it, in a way they would not apply to a psychological theory or one they meet in physics. They would at least attempt to understand it first.

All this capitalism is human nature stuff is rubbish too, capitalism is a relatively new system and it's got an awful history I cannot understand how 19th century British mill workers did not lynch their bosses and wreck whole cities after just weeks as an adult. I do not think it is human nature to work in a mill for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for the bare necessities needed to live.

Perhaps for the middle classes who stand to make a profit, it is easier to fall victim to selfishness than to philanthropist, but for most people in the world, they participate in the system to feed their family and keep what shitty shelter they can afford.

The book "The ragged trousered philanthropist" made me a socialist, I can not recommend it more to those who want to understand socialism.

 

[Tyguy]

As much as I thought I knew about Socialsim, I know very little.
Im actually in the process of reading the following:

The Communist Manifesto - Marx and Engels
Government in the Future - Noam Chomsky
Whats wrong with A Free Lunch - Parijs
The Overspent American - Schor
Capitalism and Freedom - Friedman

 

[Asknoone]

factory workers burning to death because fire exits are closed ect

Are you ****ing serious?

 

[kirovman]

factory workers burning to death because fire exits are closed ect

Are you ****ing serious?

Sorry, that was me. I put a huge block of stone in front of the fire exits then smoked next to a fuel depot.

 

[Tagaziel]

It's sad that so many people have misconceptions of what socialism is. In history class(A2) I regularly hear comments such as " Communism says every one is equal but then some people must be 'more equal than others '(if only they knew, Orwell who coined the phrase, was a socialist) in order to be in charge"

Hasn't it occured to you that they may have a point?

Or similar rubbish. It saddens me that people, surrounded by so much poverty in the world do not show the slightest bit of interest in an alternate economic system when under the current one, billions live in poverty. It depresses me. It's obvious capitalism isn't working, yet why are people so loyal to it, don't they read about sweatshops, children starving to death, factory workers burning to death because fire exits are closed ect.

It's not the fault of the system, but the fault of the people. Big difference.

Alas, I regress. I am a socialist because I believe, if brought up in a fair, socialist society. People will be co-operative, actively try and help others and the state, selfishness will be frowned upon. We will all work together for each other, rather than for ourselves and for those who employ us.

Welcome to the hippie's pipedream.

As we can all see, socialism can work if all citizens are socially engineered into puppets devoid of individualism and (God forbid) pursuit of self fullfillment.

Solaris do you listen to yourself? What about the "old version" of man, the non-socialist one? What solution do you propose?

I've read a lot of theory, and it is in my opinion sound. It makes me angry deep down that everyone isn't a socialist because I daily see things that shouldn't be happening and wouldn't in a socialist society.

With the new, "Socialist Human"(TM).

I grow very tired of debating socialism with people who haven't read or understood it's basic premises.

Marxism is an economic theory, many respectable people hold Karl Marx to be one of the greatest intellectuals mankind has ever seen, he analysed society and capitalism to a degree that no-one ever had before. Yet for some reason, people feel they don't need to understand the theory to argue against it, in a way they would not apply to a psychological theory or one they meet in physics. They would at least attempt to understand it first.

I do understand the basic assumptions of socialism and call it pipe dream.

Evidence from the 19th and 20th centuries show that it's a theory that is very, very easily perverted and abused.

So, what method of control you propose to enforce socialism? One that will not degenerate and decay over time, turning into an oppressive regime?

All this capitalism is human nature stuff is rubbish too, capitalism is a relatively new system and it's got an awful history I cannot understand how 19th century British mill workers did not lynch their bosses and wreck whole cities after just weeks as an adult. I do not think it is human nature to work in a mill for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for the bare necessities needed to live.

Oh my, guess all those philosophers, scientists and researchers can be invalidated by the ingenius Solaris. Not.

Perhaps for the middle classes who stand to make a profit, it is easier to fall victim to selfishness than to philanthropist, but for most people in the world, they participate in the system to feed their family and keep what shitty shelter they can afford.

Yes, because we all know China, which houses ~1.5 bln people is a perfect example of people participating in capitalism to feed their family and keep what shitty shelter they can afford.

A propos, the Butcher of Ukraine is a perfect role model for you.

On topic:

Socialism will always be inferior to capitalism. Concentration of means of production and power in the hands of the state leads inevitably to corruption and degeneration of the state apparatus, regardless of how it names itself - a democracy, dictatorship or similiar.

Capitalism, with all it's flaws, gives the means to the people rather than the select few in the government. It encourages self fulfillment and creativity. Yes, it's fueled by greed, but in this context greed, for the lack of a better term, is good.

Socialism, on the contrary offers no incentive. As everyone is equal and gets equal pay, why should I bother getting proper education and developing my skills if I can sweep the streets for the remainder of my life and earn as much cash as an university professor?

 

[PvtRyan]

Alas, I regress. I am a socialist because I believe, if brought up in a fair, socialist society. People will be co-operative, actively try and help others and the state, selfishness will be frowned upon. We will all work together for each other, rather than for ourselves and for those who employ us.

I believe if people just laid down their weapons and hugged each other, violence would be frowned upon. Everyone will put down their gun and pick up a shovel and work together on a better future for everyone!

See, it's easy to dream.

Also, you blame capitalism for "billions living in poverty", as if that's somehow advantageous to capitalism. The opposite is true, there's a lot to gain for capitalists by fighting poverty, bigger market = more consumers = more monies amirite? This is something you now see successfully being implemented in China and India.

 

[The Monkey]

Yeah, The Communist Manifesto is pretty short, so it's a good read to understand the basic ideas of the early communist movement. If you're a good reader you want want to try Das Kapital, but I hear it's a real challange (it's in three volumes).

 

[HunterSeeker]

Socialism, on the contrary offers no incentive. As everyone is equal and gets equal pay, why should I bother getting proper education and developing my skills if I can sweep the streets for the remainder of my life and earn as much cash as an university professor?

Why should you not? What is more intresting? Being a street sweaper or a university proffessor?

You are a prime example of one who thinkgs they understand socialism, but really do not.

 

[Asknoone]

Just remember k guys,

GREED, IS GOOD.

 

[No Limit]

It's not the fault of the system, but the fault of the people. Big difference.

So the children living in poverty in Sudan are to blame for their own poverty? Or are you saying we as a people are to blame?

 

[kirovman]

Capitalism = Socialism with Chinese characteristics.

 

[PvtRyan]

So the children living in poverty in Sudan are to blame for their own poverty? Or are you saying we as a people are to blame?

The fact sweatshops exist is the fault of the people who buy things that are manufactured in sweatshops. Companies only exist by the grace of its customers.

Like I said, capitalism is so much alike to Darwinian evolution.

 

[Tagaziel]

Why should you not? What is more intresting? Being a street sweaper or a university proffessor?

You are a prime example of one who thinkgs they understand socialism, but really do not.

I call bullshit. Why should I tire myself, if it gives me no benefit?

I don;t need education to grow and sell apples, sweep floors, be a ****ing lumberjack and be okay.

I will get as much money as a highly qualified researcher. Why should I be a researcher then?

So the children living in poverty in Sudan are to blame for their own poverty? Or are you saying we as a people are to blame?

Capitalism is just a system, an idea. Ideas don't kill people, people kill people.

Also, you blame capitalism for "billions living in poverty", as if that's somehow advantageous to capitalism. The opposite is true, there's a lot to gain for capitalists by fighting poverty, bigger market = more consumers = more monies amirite? This is something you now see successfully being implemented in China and India.

Awesome.

 

[No Limit]

The fact sweatshops exist is the fault of the people who buy things that are manufactured in sweatshops. Companies only exist by the grace of its customers.

Like I said, capitalism is so much alike to Darwinian evolution.

The fact swaetshops exist is proof that the free market doesn't work.

We are taking well paid jobs from here and moving them to countries where we don't have to treat the workers well and pay them virtually nothing.

You guys are so against communism because you say it brings everyone to the same level. What you don't seem to see is that free market capitalism does the exact same thing at a slower pace. It brings everyone but a select few down. It takes your middle class job, making you poor, and gives it to some guy in India who will still be poor because you don't have to pay him very much. I wonder how long it will be before this wonderful system eliminates the middle class so you are left with a few rich people and the rest poor people.

Capitalism is just a system, an idea. Ideas don't kill people, people kill people.

That doesn't really answer my question? Which people are to blame for this?

The same can be said about communism. Communism is just a system, an idea. Ideas don't kill people, people kill people. So sure, I do agree with you, but you really said nothing there.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Capitalism and the free market are not necessarily the same thing. The Victorians were proper capitalists. The system most of Europe uses to day is a social market economy, social programmes paid for by the free market, which in my opinion is the best system.

Socialism is a bad idea as it opposes the free market and free trade, the market can't be properly controlled/suppressed without social control as trade is almost natural in humans.

 

[No Limit]

Capitalism and the free market are not necessarily the same thing. The Victorians were proper capitalists. The system most of Europe uses to day is a social market economy, social programmes paid for by the free market, which in my opinion is the best system.

Socialism is a bad idea as it opposes the free market and free trade, the market can't be properly controlled/suppressed without social control as trade is almost natural in humans.

I totally agree with you. This isn't a black/white or good/bad argument. Both systems have their pros and cons and in the end the only effective system will be a mixed economy based off both ideas.

 

[Nemesis6]

Capitalism is better it would seem!

 

[No Limit]

Capitalism is better it would seem!

What a well thought out contribution to this topic. Thanks again for your words of wisdom nemesis .

 

[Tagaziel]

The fact swaetshops exist is proof that the free market doesn't work.

How, exactly?

We are taking well paid jobs from here and moving them to countries where we don't have to treat the workers well and pay them virtually nothing.

Who are this "we"? Tell me, do you know where the goods you buy are produced?

If you buy them regardless of where they are produced, YOU are the problem. Not the free market. By buying products produced with disregard for workers, you actively encourage such efforts.

You guys are so against communism because you say it brings everyone to the same level. What you don't seem to see is that free market capitalism does the exact same thing at a slower pace. It brings everyone but a select few down. It takes your middle class job, making you poor, and gives it to some guy in India who will still be poor because you don't have to pay him very much. I wonder how long it will be before this wonderful system eliminates the middle class so you are left with a few rich people and the rest poor people.

Would you care to back that populistic statement with something more, like a credible statistic of some sort? Frankly, I see this rubbish thrown around a lot and never backed up.

That doesn't really answer my question? Which people are to blame for this?

The consumer, who encourages the corporations to move jobs to third world countries. Capitalism requires responsibility, something unheard of in a state controlled economy.

 

[PvtRyan]

The fact swaetshops exist is proof that the free market doesn't work.

Actually, sweatshop jobs tend to be better than whatever jobs the people there can get. Still crap, but an improvement anyway.

Besides, as I said, customers decide the fate of businesses, if they knew about it they might not decide to buy anything from them.

A good example is the current CO2 hype, companies may or may not really care about the environment, but the customer does so every company has jumped on the durable/green bandwagon. Altruism from selfishness.

Ironic how capitalism is the one to truly give the common man power, while communism/socialism just leads you to become a tool of the state.

We are taking well paid jobs from here and moving them to countries where we don't have to treat the workers well and pay them virtually nothing.

You guys are so against communism because you say it brings everyone to the same level. What you don't seem to see is that free market capitalism does the exact same thing at a slower pace. It brings everyone but a select few down. It takes your middle class job, making you poor, and gives it to some guy in India who will still be poor because you don't have to pay him very much. I wonder how long it will be before this wonderful system eliminates the middle class so you are left with a few rich people and the rest poor people.

You don't have to pay them much no, compared to our standards. But us bringing jobs over there brings, what is to them, wealth. Eventually, as they economically develop, their wages rise too and it's no longer economically viable to offshore jobs there so another country is sought. But that does mean a country is 'helped' out of poverty. Purely because of the selfish needs of the capitalists. And it's funny you mention India since that country has a booming economy and is becoming more and more important to the West.

And that last sentence makes no sense, there is an increase in personal freedom the average man has.

Why pure socialism doesn't work is very easily explained. In socialism, the only reason to do something is because of social obligations, but humans are not designed to function in large societies. They can't be expected to really care about others in a world consisting of billions of individuals. They might to a certain extent, but personal gain (money) is a much stronger incentive to do things than rather abstract concepts like people in other countries. Communism might work in a tiny farmer village, but not in a country let alone the entire planet.

 

[No Limit]

How, exactly?

I think I explained that in my post. Moving on...

Who are this "we"? Tell me, do you know where the goods you buy are produced?

By "we" I mean exactly that, we. Just like you said, we are to blame because we continue to buy this cheap shit.

If you buy them regardless of where they are produced, YOU are the problem. Not the free market. By buying products produced with disregard for workers, you actively encourage such efforts.

Absolutely, I am part of the problem. I have a wal-mart down the street from my house, I shop there weekly since it helps me save quite a bit of money, and when you live off pay check to pay check every little bit helps.

So does that help you understand why the free market doesn't work? The same human nature argument you make against communism applies here. It is human nature to be greedy. It is human nature to be selfish. Sure, we all look at these pictures of sweatshops and feel bad for those people, but 5 minutes later we forget about it and go back to our wonderful lifestyle. The human race has proven over the last few thousand years that we can not police our selves and we will never be able to. We get upset that our toys made in china have lead in them, yet we continue to buy more shit from china. I mean really, most of us are really that ****ing stupid.

What you people that use the communism = bad capitalism = good argument don't seem to understand is that even though the means are different the ends are exactly the same.

What statistic do you need? Do you not believe factories have been closing down here so they could go to cheap overseas markets. Do you not believe call centers all around this country and especially my city have been closing down here and going overseas? Do you not believe that computer programmers here are being replaced by computer programmers over there because they will work for virtually nothing? Do you need statistics on how many recalls there are on a daily basis of products made in china because they tend to poison or kill us? Let me know which of these statements you don't believe and I'll get you a source.

 

[No Limit]

PvtRyan, sure you are making the life of someone over there slightly better while you are totally destroying the life of someone here. So the guy who is here is now poor and the guy over there is still poor. Read my reply above, I wrote it before I saw your post, I think it addresses most of your post.

 

[jverne]

meritocratic technocracy is the ultimate solution for a (biological) human being.

 

[Tagaziel]

By "we" I mean exactly that, we. Just like you said, we are to blame because we continue to buy this cheap shit.

Speak for yourself. I don't buy shit, and if you like shit, then all the better for you. Just remember to wash your hands afterwards.

Absolutely, I am part of the problem. I have a wal-mart down the street from my house, I shop there weekly since it helps me save quite a bit of money, and when you live off pay check to pay check every little bit helps.

So, you are participating in the system yet you actively proclaim it evil? Doublethink at it's finest.

So does that help you understand why the free market doesn't work? The same human nature argument you make against communism applies here. It is human nature to be greedy. It is human nature to be selfish. Sure, we all look at these pictures of sweatshops and feel bad for those people, but 5 minutes later we forget about it and go back to our wonderful lifestyle. The human race has proven over the last few thousand years that we can not police our selves and we will never be able to.

Considering that modern society has developed in the past 300-400 years (Enlightenment) you really need to redo your history lessons.

Now please, make some real argument like Ryan or just stop posting typical propaganda statements.

We get upset that our toys made in china have lead in them, yet we continue to buy more shit from china. I mean really, most of us are really that ****ing stupid.

As I said, speak for yourself.

What you people that use the communism = bad capitalism = good argument don't seem to understand is that even though the means are different the ends are exactly the same.

Care to cite any proper researcher?

What statistic do you need? Do you not believe factories have been closing down here so they could go to cheap overseas markets. Do you not believe call centers all around this country and especially my city have been closing down here and going overseas? Do you not believe that computer programmers here are being replaced by computer programmers over there because they will work for virtually nothing? Do you need statistics on how many recalls there are on a daily basis of products made in china because they tend to poison or kill us? Let me know which of these statements you don't believe and I'll get you a source.

I believe in facts, not words.