Chavez to expel foreign critics

[The Monkey]

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has vowed to expel foreigners who publicly criticise him or his government.

"No foreigner can come here to attack us. Anyone who does must be removed from this country," he said during his weekly TV and radio programme.

Mr Chavez also ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures in Venezuela.

His comments came shortly after a senior Mexican politician publicly criticised the Venezuelan government.

"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" Mr Chavez said during his "Hello, President" broadcast on Sunday.

"It cannot be allowed - it is a question of national dignity," he said.

He did not mention any names, but his comments came on the same weekend that Manuel Espino, president of Mexico's ruling National Action Party, criticised Mr Chavez at a pro-democracy conference in Caracas.

Mr Espino told the conference a plan by Mr Chavez to end term limits on Venezuela's presidency were a threat to democracy.

He accused Mr Chavez of trying to extend his rule indefinitely with the proposed constitutional reform, which would let Mr Chavez run for the presidency again in 2012.

Mr Chavez said the reform package would increase the influence of local community councils and student groups as part of his "21st-Century socialism" revolution.

He is due to present the proposal to Venezuela's National Assembly next month. The assembly consists solely of politicians who back the president.

Mr Chavez was re-elected to a third term last year with support from the millions of impoverished Venezuelans who back his social development policies.

Source

I guess I was right not to trust the man from the start.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Yeah read about it before. I simply love how he tries to hide his tyrannical tendencies.

 

[repiV]

Viva la Chavez!


Well Solaris ain't here, so somebody had to say it...

 

[No Limit]

Yeah, a president doing what the majority of people that elected him want him to do.

What a prick!

 

[Asknoone]

There's your idol Solaris. Is this what Solarism is all about?

 

[Pulse]

That's hilarious.

 

[The Monkey]

Yeah, a president doing what the majority of people that elected him want him to do.

What a prick!

A majority of the people elected Bush (in 2004). Does that justify the Iraq War, and all the other countless things he has done wrong?

What if Bush had done something like this, would you have supported that too?

 

[kirovman]

He gets worse everyday.

And the fact that he went to the United Nations to criticise the US in fairly insulting language reeks of hypocrisy by him.

The rule by decree and now this. The erosion of liberties is very apparent.

Anyway, he's a rhetorical shownman in my eyes, I hope he doesn't decide one day to silence his opponents with bullets.

(Note: I support his right to goto America to criticise it, but I'm highlighting the fact he denies that possibility to foreigners coming to Venezuela. It's a one way street with him).

 

[Pulse]

In b4 RJMC

 

[Gray Fox]

On one hand, I'm for deporting Imams that come here and criticize us, but thats mainly because they are mostly here to just spread hate, spit on everything we hold dear, and generally incite conflict.

So I do not know about this, it depends on what the standards are, if there are any. Because it is very different to have criticisms supported by arguments and tangible evidence, and simply talking out of your ass.

 

[Absinthe]

Yeah, a president doing what the majority of people that elected him want him to do.

What a prick!

Bush received the popular vote in the 2004 election. I guess that too gives him carte blanche and an absolvement of responsibility, yes?

Sorry, but to hell with "national dignity". When you start expelling critics who have valid criticisms of your government, you are creating a democracy in name only. You are creating an insular society that loses touch with the rest of the world and produces a warped perception. Sound familiar? At risk of invoking Godwin's law, I'm not seeing any meaningful difference between this and the way Hitler bullied the frightful and the critical when it came to his "democratic" election. Nor do I know how you came to the conclusion that the majority of Venezuela is supportive of this action, although I wouldn't be too surprised if this was the case. If so, shame on him and shame on them too.

This is one of the ways in which the democracy of the United States is fundamentally better than the one in Venezuela, because we essentially have safeguards in the constitution that keep mass stupidity from being voted into legislation on core issues like freedom of speech. I'm surprised that the irony of statements like this:

"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?"

...don't hit him in the face so hard that his nose breaks. Say what you want about us on a lot of issues, but the civilized Western world does grant the freedom to those both domestic and foreign to call its leaders dictators and tyrants. What Chavez is spouting is nothing but the same "freedom isn't free" bullshit maxim that's become so popular amongst conservative regressors. The same people that we criticize daily on this forum.

 

[No Limit]

Thank you guys for pointing out to me that Bush was elected by a margin of 3%. But that's not really my point.

When Bush was elected his approval rating was still fairly decent, until he started going against the will of the point and now his approval rating is down in the 25% range.

Chavez was elected with 60% of the vote not only in 2001 but again in 2004. In addition the last poll I looked at which was in 2006 chavez had an approval rating of around 85%. Can't find any information on his current approval ratings but I am willing to bet they are very close.

In addition to all this comparing Chavez's goverment to ours is like comparing apples and oranges. Chavez spelled out exactly what he was going to do, and that's lunch a socialist revolution. It's a little hard to launch a socialist revolution in a country that has tried overthrowing its government violently at least once succesfully in the last 6 years and where big business constantly spews anti-government messages calling for violance against Chavez and its party members. Not to mention outside governments probably lend support to this type of violance toward the government.

So I am not going to give my opinion on what Chavez is doing as I don't know enough about the country to, I am simply stating a fact and that fact is that he is doing what the people elected him to do and what they continue to want him to do. And as long as its constitutional (which by all means it appears to be) its hard for me to sit here a few thousand miles away passing judgement on something I know little about.

 

[No Limit]

This is one of the ways in which the democracy of the United States is fundamentally better than the one in Venezuela, because we essentially have safeguards in the constitution that keep mass stupidity from being voted into legislation on core issues like freedom of speech. I'm surprised that the irony of statements like this:

I wanted to comment on this separately.

Our "democracy" is by no means perfect and its on the border line of being broken. Just in the last week you had a president tell his aides to ignore a congressional subopena and when congress said it would file contempt charges Bush ordered his justice department not to persude those charges. Of course this is all in a case where Bush fired attorneys who were investigating his party's officials or attorneys that refused to in essence commit election fraud by filing charges against democrats here in my state (NM) right before an election on the request of Republican senators. In that same investigation we found out Bush administration officials used outside email accounts (illegal) where they deleted all their emails every 30 days to avoid having a record of them, again totally against the law. But they came out and said they were sorry, I guess that's enough for our congress to forgive and forget.

In addition you have a president that has wiretapped, locked up, tortured, and kidnapped innocent people. When this was made known no action was taken against him and as our congressional "leaders" keep telling us impeachment is not on the table. Yet, in the case of a blow job, impeachment was ideal.

Sorry to go off on this rant but I don't think we have a right to criticise anyone else's "democracy", we should instead concentrate on fixing ours.

 

[kirovman]

I think we have the right to criticise their democracy and we also have the responsibility to criticise our own. Honest criticism of course, with double standards being considered.

 

[<RJMC>]

Thank you guys for pointing out to me that Bush was elected by a margin of 3%. But that's not really my point.

When Bush was elected his approval rating was still fairly decent, until he started going against the will of the point and now his approval rating is down in the 25% range.

Chavez was elected with 60% of the vote not only in 2001 but again in 2004. In addition the last poll I looked at which was in 2006 chavez had an approval rating of around 85%. Can't find any information on his current approval ratings but I am willing to bet they are very close.

In addition to all this comparing Chavez's goverment to ours is like comparing apples and oranges. Chavez spelled out exactly what he was going to do, and that's lunch a socialist revolution. It's a little hard to launch a socialist revolution in a country that has tried overthrowing its government violently at least once succesfully in the last 6 years and where big business constantly spews anti-government messages calling for violance against Chavez and its party members. Not to mention outside governments probably lend support to this type of violance toward the government.

So I am not going to give my opinion on what Chavez is doing as I don't know enough about the country to, I am simply stating a fact and that fact is that he is doing what the people elected him to do and what they continue to want him to do. And as long as its constitutional (which by all means it appears to be) its hard for me to sit here a few thousand miles away passing judgement on something I know little about.

note,in the last elections 7 millions of people voted for chavez,the total population of the country is 25 millions,around 10 millions people voted

 

[The Monkey]

Thank you guys for pointing out to me that Bush was elected by a margin of 3%. But that's not really my point.

When Bush was elected his approval rating was still fairly decent, until he started going against the will of the point and now his approval rating is down in the 25% range.

Chavez was elected with 60% of the vote not only in 2001 but again in 2004. In addition the last poll I looked at which was in 2006 chavez had an approval rating of around 85%. Can't find any information on his current approval ratings but I am willing to bet they are very close.

In addition to all this comparing Chavez's goverment to ours is like comparing apples and oranges. Chavez spelled out exactly what he was going to do, and that's lunch a socialist revolution. It's a little hard to launch a socialist revolution in a country that has tried overthrowing its government violently at least once succesfully in the last 6 years and where big business constantly spews anti-government messages calling for violance against Chavez and its party members. Not to mention outside governments probably lend support to this type of violance toward the government.

So I am not going to give my opinion on what Chavez is doing as I don't know enough about the country to, I am simply stating a fact and that fact is that he is doing what the people elected him to do and what they continue to want him to do. And as long as its constitutional (which by all means it appears to be) its hard for me to sit here a few thousand miles away passing judgement on something I know little about.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason of his high approval rating is that he has shut down or is in the process of shutting down all independant media, making it nearly impossible for the average man to find out exactly what does on behind the facade of propaganda that Chavez is spewing out. It's the same think in Russia, where Putin has 80 % approval rating, despite most of the outside world knowing that he's just a few steps away from becoming a total dictator.

 

[No Limit]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason of his high approval rating is that he has shut down or is in the process of shutting down all independant media, making it nearly impossible for the average man to find out exactly what does on behind the facade of propaganda that Chavez is spewing out. It's the same think in Russia, where Putin has 80 % approval rating, despite most of the outside world knowing that he's just a few steps away from becoming a total dictator.

That's actually false. His government denied to extend the license of ONE network that was calling for the violent overthrow of his government. And this didn't happen until just a few months ago, the poll I talked about was from 2006. Even with most of the media so anti-chavez that they would call for violance against him he was still able to maintain a 85% approval rating. That says a lot about the will of the people. So why don't we leave them alone and let them do their own thing and instead concentrate on our own broken democracy.

 

[French Ninja]

What a douchebag.

 

[<RJMC>]

where you ge that 85% of aproval?

 

[Icarusintel]

So why don't we leave them alone and let them do their own thing and instead concentrate on our own broken democracy.

This isn;t a thread about America, and I don't think it should be. This is supposed to be about the silencing of dissent in Venezuela. I know you weren't the one who brought up America in the first place, but you could have stayed on topic.

Every move Chavez makes he gets closer to being a dictator. This, along with working to get rid of the cap on re-electing an official is disturbing.

Still, I must ask RJMC - Have things gotten better since Chavez came to power?

 

[No Limit]

where you ge that 85% of aproval?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1934

 

[No Limit]

This isn;t a thread about America, and I don't think it should be. This is supposed to be about the silencing of dissent in Venezuela. I know you weren't the one who brought up America in the first place, but you could have stayed on topic.

Every move Chavez makes he gets closer to being a dictator. This, along with working to get rid of the cap on re-electing an official is disturbing.

But again, its what people want there. You don't really have proof that what he is doing is trying to become a dictator. However, he is trying to turn his entire government socialist, something he was elected to do by a 60% margin. I say let them do what they want to do, its their country. As far as I know everything he has done has been constitutional and legal.

 

[<RJMC>]

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1934

look at the links on the page

it have links to state owned stuffs

believe or not,all the goverment is under chavez fallowers comand,like the national assembly,I dont care if you come whit a link proving me wrong,when the people of the national assembly speaks is practically a chavez loving fest

and believe me since I saw it whit my own eyes and dont be like solaris posting stuff from webpages of departsments of the goverment

 

[Icarusintel]

But again, its what people want there. You don't really have proof that what he is doing is trying to become a dictator. However, he is trying to turn his entire government socialist, something he was elected to do by a 60% margin. I say let them do what they want to do, its their country. As far as I know everything he has done has been constitutional and legal.

It doesn't take much of a look back in history to see that just because something was done constitutionally and legally doesn't mean it won't end up being horrible for the people of that country and others.

And why would he get rid of the re-election limits if he didn't plan on being a dictator? Someone else, elected by the people, could continue his socialist policies.

 

[No Limit]

look at the links on the page

it have links to state owned stuffs

believe or not,all the goverment is under chavez fallowers comand,like the national assembly,I dont care if you come whit a link proving me wrong,when the people of the national assembly speaks is practically a chavez loving fest

and believe me since I saw it whit my own eyes and dont be like solaris posting stuff from webpages of departsments of the goverment

If you have a better link by all means post it, I tried looking for something better too but couldn't find any actual numbers. However, what I did find was throughout the board Chavez seems to have very high approval ratings. If I am wrong then that's fine, but I haven't seen anything to suggest I am wrong on this assumption.

It doesn't take much of a look back in history to see that just because something was done constitutionally and legally doesn't mean it won't end up being horrible for the people of that country and others.

And why would he get rid of the re-election limits if he didn't plan on being a dictator? Someone else, elected by the people, could continue his socialist policies.

Sure, and I have no clue as to what his intentions are. But I believe, from what I have read (at least remember reading) that he was the main person to push through their new consitution which is by far the most comprehensive in the world. So why is he trying to remove re-election limits? Well, probably because he wants to be elected again and again. But if he wanted to be a dictator as you say he is trying to be why did he set up a constitution that limited a president's power in the first place.

You don't live there, I don't live there. So both of us don't know too much about what is going on in that country. So let the people that live there worry about it, if they don't want your help and they are perfectly happy with what is going on then let them be.

 

[<RJMC>]

If you have a better link by all means post it, I tried looking for something better too but couldn't find any actual numbers. However, what I did find was throughout the board Chavez seems to have very high approval ratings. If I am wrong then that's fine, but I haven't seen anything to suggest I am wrong on this assumption.

just be sure of this,if it comes from some department of the goverment off course it will be pro chavez,almost all the stuff of the goverment are pro chavez stuff,every minister allways chant about good things of chavez,in the reelections everythime a minister mentioned the words elections it allways tryed to come up whit some pro chavez coment,like one of someone that said something like "this will be continued after the elections,that you already know who is going to win" and he was talking about a judgement to someone that was jailed dont remnber why

so if you think chavez is bad or not,just believe me that

 

[hydrometeor]

The vote is a terribly ineffective check on government. It always amuses me when people think it's the end-all solution.

 

[leib10]

Look at Nazi Germany. Hitler was technically elected by voting, although the election was rigged.

 

[No Limit]

Look at Nazi Germany. Hitler was technically elected by voting, although the election was rigged.

Yeah, except in Chavez's case the vote was independently certified.

We had more problems in our general election with evoting than they ever could. Why would you claim Chavez rigged the election and shy away from saying the same about Bush?

 

[rAdIOhEaD]

Yeah, a president doing what the majority of people that elected him want him to do.

What a prick!

According to your logic we shouldn't complain of our governors if they where legitimate elected? Even Hitler was legitimate elected, Keep in mind that when we elected this moron, it was for a standard presidential period of 5 years, after that this idiot has been changing the constitution at his will and he's been in power for almost 10 years now, he wants to change the constitution again so he can stay in power indefinitely.

 

[No Limit]

According to your logic we shouldn't complain of our governors if they where legitimate elected? Even Hitler was legitimate elected, Keep in mind that when we elected this moron, it was for a standard presidential period of 5 years, after that this idiot has been changing the constitution at his will and he's been in power for almost 10 years now, he wants to change the constitution again so he can stay in power indefinitely.

You're telling me that he just scratched out parts of the constitution, a constitution he had a great hand in creating from my understanding, and wrote in his own version. Or did he actually have to follow the constitution to do this and actually get approval first for other government branches?

You live these so this is a serious question as like I said I don't know much about it.

Edit:

In addition, Hitler was never actually elected in to power:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm

 

[rAdIOhEaD]

Did you know that Chavez personally picked and selected the presidential members of the entity that counts and regulate the votes here? don't believe me? The former president of this entity (CNE) is now working for the government, and worst, his successor at the CNE (president of the institution by the time of the referendum!) who always proclaimed himself as neutral is now Vice-president!!!! how sick is that? how can you trust in elections here when the government owns the entity???
Dude wake-up, there is no revolution going on here, and believe me, I know a few more things than you when it comes to this subject, now go back to your idealistic thinking in your comfortable democratic first world country home ...

 

[No Limit]

The fact you live there is great, I love that kind of prospective.

But saying "I live here and you don't" doesn't really answer any of the simple questions I posed to you, does it?

 

[rAdIOhEaD]

The fact you live there is great, I love that kind of prospective.

But saying "I live here and you don't" doesn't really answer any of the simple questions I posed to you, does it?

I think you have to read my message again, not only the part of me living here, but more the part of the votes, ooh and he also has the majority in parliament so everything he says is pretty much granted, that covers changing the constitution at will, not enough for him, he's been talking about a new law "habilitante" who gives him absolute power even over the parliament when needed.

So if you still think this is the guy for you, let me know and we can happily exchange nationalities..

 

[<RJMC>]

I think the fact is that problably he sees a lot of people backing up chavez and stuff like that so sure he dont believe us

 

[No Limit]

RJMC, I didn't see you were also from there.

It's not a matter of me not believing you. I am asked raidohead simple questions, his response was not to answer those questions but instead to say I live here, you dont so stfu.

So let me ask these questions again. Why would he eliminate a constitution he helped create? What is he doing that is unconstitutional. IN addition you have absolutely no evidance that the elections were fraudulent. And finally a large majority of the population continues to support what chavez is doing, this has been the case since 1998 when that same population had to approve this new constitution.

On the other side you have big business and the elite class calling for the violant overthrow of Chavez's government. This alone will force him to lead in a more radical way.

Am I wrong on any of these points? Serious question, as I said before I do not live there, this is all coming from what I read. So if you have any thing to correct then correct it, I just don't see how saying I live there you don't is a valid argument to these points.

 

[<RJMC>]

he is not eliminating the constitution he is changing it the way he wants and since the whole assembly is a bunch of supporters so they aprove everything he says
so he will modify whatever he wants to get more control,isnt that dicatorship?

and yes people supports chavez,but there is still people who dont,and what the pro chavez people support mostly is the stuff he is building and things like that,not the wholer socialist movement

and yes there are big business here and possibly some of then finance stuff against chavez but as I said there is normal people that also dont like chavez too,or you think we are some rich ass cuz we have computers? cuz since this is a 3rd world country is impossible to someone normal to have a computer?
so whats the deal whit the big bussines?

one thing you should note is that the goverment is trying to take down private stuff like schools and hospitals,and they even confirm that,in various speechs and stuff,dont know if those are in youtube but believe is true,but for what to say it if you dont seem to believe us

 

[ninojman]

The first two years didn't seem that bad, but ever since his 2nd term started it has been a "How to" become a dictator.

Only time will tell where his heart is, but latey it has only been in gaining more power.

 

[kirovman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6435313.stm

And a genuine Latin American plutocrat - the kind of portly man who wears bright yellow corduroy trousers and almost gets away with it - told me he had met Chavez face to face and told him: "Your friend, Fidel Castro, is a killer. You are not."

Chavez, he said, did not reply. The plutocrat was comforted by that silence - though I think he has several passports just in case.