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golden_fang

golden_fang

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I made this made this thread after reading a article.

mainly though I will express my own opinion though
imo chinas so called economic wonder is based on fraud there is not a single product group where they haven't screwed up and then exported it to the US/EU for example tooth paste,car tires and toys etc...
They also want to invade Taiwan and imo the only reason they haven't done that yet is because of the next Olympics that are held in china I will bet money on it that as soon as those are over ,hell will break loose (Germany 1936 anyone?)
Another reason why I made this thread is because of this particular
article WTF? seriously once upon a time I was one of the people that China are our friends and they will get over the human rights issues and so forth. Now I think China will be the next Soviet Union.
 
A lot of the bad quality products in question are produced by American companies! I don't see quality being a long term problem, as they realise the bad press they have gotten lately and are actively trying to change that image by introducing new quality control laws.

I don't think it's fair to compare China now to Nazi Germany in the 1930s. The leader of the Muslim council of Britain just compared British society with Nazi Germany in the 1930s last week, so Godwin's Law is getting tired.
 
You don't understand Chinese culture at all golden fang. They will not invade Taiwan unless Taiwan invades them. Most Chinese people consider Taiwan as part of the country, so why invade it if it's already theirs? Very similar culture, same language, celebrate the same festivals and events.

Invade because they're democractic? Hong Kong is more or less still democratic and very "western". China has not forced its hand in Hong Kong as people feared when British rule was handed back to China. Why?

China has gone through so much civil war and unrest for pretty much its entire history. Now, finally the country is in some kind of stability and the economy has been growing at a rate of about 10% for the last 30 years.

Chinas workforce is allowing us westerners to continue to grow fat and rich. They are supplying the world with almost everything now.

What are you scared of golden_fang? Bad tooth paste? Huh?

Now I think China will be the next Soviet Union.
Click to expand...
As the quality of life picks up, China is becoming more liberal and free every day. I can't quite see where you're getting your opinion from?
 
Mr-Fusion said:
You don't understand Chinese culture at all golden fang. They will not invade Taiwan unless Taiwan invades them. Most Chinese people consider Taiwan as part of the country, so why invade it if it's already theirs? Very similar culture, same language, celebrate the same festivals and events.

Invade because they're democractic? Hong Kong is more or less still democratic and very "western". China has not forced its hand in Hong Kong as people feared when British rule was handed back to China. Why?

China has gone through so much civil war and unrest for pretty much its entire history. Now, finally the country is in some kind of stability and the economy has been growing at a rate of about 10% for the last 30 years.

Chinas workforce is allowing us westerners to continue to grow fat and rich. They are supplying the world with almost everything now.

What are you scared of golden_fang? Bad tooth paste? Huh?


As the quality of life picks up, China is becoming more liberal and free every day. I can't quite see where you're getting your opinion from?
Click to expand...


familt friend just married a girl from china,grisly tales horrble wokr conditions fro factory workers etc
 
It's economic growth is built on exploitation, if they had the human rights standards of the UK, their economy would collapse.
 
Many economies would collapse if they had the human rights standard of other countries.

Where will companies like Walmart suddenly get their cheap labour from? I've heard some countries are planning to exploit cheap Vietnamese labour when China starts introducing fairer treatment for its workers.
 
Mr-Fusion said:
You don't understand Chinese culture at all golden fang. They will not invade Taiwan unless Taiwan invades them. Most Chinese people consider Taiwan as part of the country, so why invade it if it's already theirs? Very similar culture, same language, celebrate the same festivals and events.

Invade because they're democractic? Hong Kong is more or less still democratic and very "western". China has not forced its hand in Hong Kong as people feared when British rule was handed back to China. Why?
Click to expand...

They haven't invaded (recently, they've had a couple of cracks at it before though) because Taiwan has stopped short of declaring full independence from mainland China, and because of the threat of American force being used to defend Taiwan. If Taiwan ever declared independence China would be swift to crush it. And now they're much more able to do that due to massive modernization that the Chinese armed forces have undergone in recent years, which means that they're capable of defeating the Taiwanese armed forces, and soon will be able to have a very good chance of defeating any conventional forces the US might commit. The Taiwanese, broadly speaking, no longer consider themselves to be the same as mainland China and believe that they should be full independent, and only heavy diplomatic pressure from the US has stopped them.

And also the Hong Kong example is a bad one. For a start we'll need to wait until at least 2047 to see if the Chinese keep their word and also China were quick to use the threat of force to get more than they were entitled to when the negosiations for the return of Hong Kong were taking place. The main Island of Hong Kong was not part of the 99 year lease, it had been ceeded to the UK before the outlying islands and mainland terretory, but the Chinese demanded its return and threatened a full scale invasion of Hong Kong if their demands were not met.
 
don't get me wrong here I don't want anything then a good relationship with china...but they need alota government overhaul.
 
And also the Hong Kong example is a bad one. For a start we'll need to wait until at least 2047 to see if the Chinese keep their word and also China were quick to use the threat of force to get more than they were entitled to when the negosiations for the return of Hong Kong were taking place. The main Island of Hong Kong was not part of the 99 year lease, it had been ceeded to the UK before the outlying islands and mainland terretory, but the Chinese demanded its return and threatened a full scale invasion of Hong Kong if their demands were not met.
Click to expand...

Love how that turned out. Britain builds up Hong Kong and makes it a world class wealthy city that has become a center of regional if not global trade.

Then the Chinese ask for it back, without having to have lifted a finger to make it what it is.

China needs to get Over Taiwan, since you know, the first country that ever tried to properly colonize it was in fact the Dutch, go figure, in the grand scheme of things, China's claim over Taiwan is hardly any more powerful then any other country thats occupied it or tried to colonize it. For most of Chinese history the Island was ignored, on top of the aboriginal Taiwanese people, and the growing sense of Taiwanese national identity, it has as much right to self determination as anyone.

As for Tibet, well, China thinks it owns Tibet, the Tibetans may not. It seems a very clear cut example of one larger country invading a weaker neighbour for an easy win and more territory (even though the territory is fairly useless).

Then theres China's human rights, NO!, DOWN DOGS DOWN! *smacks the bad "but the west isn't perfect either!" yapping little terrier squad with a rolled newspaper*...anyway, in regard to China's human rights, its hardly been a secret that China fails miserably. Not so surprising considering the regime is a fat bloated inheritor of a murderous dictator's long civil war for power (though the KMT probably wasn't much better...). Forced evictions, no judicial accountability. Severe and heavy handed punishments. Political imprisonment. Exploitation, you name it.

China as a political entity is a bad country and needs to be slapped.

But the problem is, is that China and Western, especially American economies are fairly intertwined now. Instability in China is bad for everyone.

Like it has been said, political, judicial and social reform needs to come from within. The Chinese have to want to live in a "free" nation state where freedom of speech, judicial fairness and impartiality, free from state interference and government accountability reign.
 
golden_fang said:
don't get me wrong here I don't want anything then a good relationship with china...but they need alota government overhaul.
Click to expand...

You can't get a decent government overhaul unless you change the mindset of the people, and that is always very difficult to do. Otherwise everything collapses and burns horribly.
 
The politicial system of China won't change because the people of China aren't interested in changing it. They've gotten a lot better life since the 30s, and they can live with not being able to speak about Falun Gong or the Tianamen square massacre. People simply don't give a shit about politics.
 
China = epic phail at government.

Basically, if their people don't bring them down, we will.
 
PortalStormzzzz said:
China = epic phail at government.

Basically, if their people don't bring them down, we will.
Click to expand...

Read the thread. Think logically. We can't bring them down from outside, because then we get another Middle East, and/or that's not how the people of the free world are supposed to do things. That and they are sort of linked to our economy. Also, they still have lots of people willing to fight.

The only way that you can truely change a country's government for the better is through that country. Not by sweeping in and 'taking them down'. It doesn't achieve anything, and might even go entirely the opposite way.
 
Exactly what I was thinking. invasion is not an option. Both of us would go bankrupt and cause Epic Civil Failures.

Example is Venezuela, who has remains suspiciously silent as their nation burns inside.:
ECPH.png


Thus, with most Chinese hating communism, they would go down via a simple killing of their leaders and letting the masses take care of their own government.

HOWEVER, I think their slow and calm movement to capitalism now will kill them in the future. Because if they do go the German way and go crazy after the Olympics, then when their people start to suffer from war they will collapse internally.
 
PortalStormzzzz said:
China = epic phail at government.

Basically, if their people don't bring them down, we will.
Click to expand...

You realise China collapsing would be a bad thing right? Everyones economy (yes even Americas) is tied into theirs. There would be huge econmic shockwaves if china died - they make practically everything.
 
PortalStormzzzz said:
Thus, with most Chinese hating communism, they would go down via a simple killing of their leaders and letting the masses take care of their own government.

HOWEVER, I think their slow and calm movement to capitalism now will kill them in the future. Because if they do go the German way and go crazy after the Olympics, then when their people start to suffer from war they will collapse internally.
Click to expand...

And that's any better than invasion? Only in that 'we' don't directly lose anything.
 
The problem is that the people of China have had a long tradition of shutting the **** up as long as they get fed and housed.

Democracy and liberalism is a concept not really familiar to them. Its essentially a case of them not knowing what their missing.

Why miss judicial fairness, impartiality and accountability when anyone whos suffered at the Chinese Judiciaries hands are locked away where they can't complain?. In a country where those who haven't been stepped on by the Government jackboot and experienced the unfairness of it all, why should they see anything wrong?. If they bother to think about it at all they either think "lying westerner" or "maybe they deserved it". The human can be a very careless and cruel animal at times.

To us we've grown up in a country where we won't be made to disappear for saying democracy sucks, or that Bush or Brown are a big fat monkey and gorilla in that order.
We live in a society where the biggest judicial outrages are people getting Tazered possibly wrongly by police. Getting hit with a specifically non lethally intended weapon.

The Chinese authorities probably wouldn't accommodate you with a nice Tazer, a fist across the jaw about 30 times would probably be on the menu though.

[/personal ranting opinion]
 
 
Wait, do they consider Mao and Communism a disgrace?
 
Sulkdodds said:
Wait, do they consider Mao and Communism a disgrace?
Click to expand...

Considering that Mao Zedong took power by winning the chinese civil war as late as in 1949 many may very well consider it a disgrace, as their parents/grandparents or even themselves fought against the communists. It was not a revolution, but a civil war.
 
HunterSeeker said:
Considering that Mao Zedong took power by winning the chinese civil war as late as in 1949 many may very well consider it a disgrace, as their parents/grandparents or even themselves fought against the communists. It was not a revolution, but a civil war.
Click to expand...

Well a huge number of the leading nationalists who survived the civil war emigrated to Taiwan.
Plus I think it's probably safe to say that Chinese schools have painted a fairly favourable picture of Mao and the PLA over the past 60 years or so.
 
Yea, I know all our economies are connected. But we'd recover.

Besides, out of all that crap from China, how much of it has actually benefited us?

Last I checked, virtually everything has something from ecol i to Avian Flu.


HOW THE HELL DO YOU GET ECOLI IN MEAT? DID THEY SHAT ON IT OR SOMETHING?


kirovman said:
Stop saying epic so much. It's really irritating.
Click to expand...

NEVAR
 
The ignorance coming out of your mouth is almost palpable.
 
Well, we kind of had the same thing happen in 1812. We were trading with the Euros, then cut them off. We suffered a great deal, our economy collapsed, and we lost (I think) 2/3rds of or monetary value. BUT, we still came out ok. After that war, we would not go down.

But Ecoli is in meat. And last I checked, Ecoli is from shit. SO ... you know, just thinking logically.
 
First of all, what I can see is China becoming more opened and democratic.

After the economic reform two decays ago, there has been a continuous progression in human rights and jurisdiction. Undeniably, the crackdown in Tian'anmen was a major drawback of human rights, but this was a single, individual political decision recklessly blundered. The overall freedom of journalism is improving. More and more western news networks are allowed to take a close look at the Chinese Government, as watchdogs of human rights in China. More foreign companies are willing to step onto the soil of China, as an evidence of Chinese improved, opened jurisdictional system and economic policy. China are moving away from dictatorship. Therefore, China are becoming less of a Soviet Union, rather than becoming so.

Although Internet censorship is still there, the situation will somehow change soon, in the foreseeable future. The situation is improving.

As for the Sino-American economic relation, the States have over $54 billions of direct investment in China. Lot of American enterprises have branch companies in China. Besides, since the world economic are tightly bound to China's, I guess that is little chance that American chooses to invade China and sustain an immense global economic depression. If there is a war, it kills US Government when other countries demand her to pay her debts. You know, America has $5 trillion public debt. Every country wants her money back when there is a war-caused economic depression. The US will not be able to sustain such economic loss, let alone the cost of having a war against another superpower. It is not like 1812. Economics has been infinitely globalised since 20th century, US and the rest of the world cannot sustain such financial shockwave of war. NEVER think on your old way. World has changed.

At last, Chinese don't hate communism, nor the party.
 
I know, but lets face it, the US has what, maybe another decades worth in it? It's going down. I live right here in the big apple and trust me, it's going down. When it takes a half and hour for the hospital trucks to arrive from a 10 minute away hospital, it's really sad. That said, when the US finally does go the way of the Romans, what will come from it? I know the US will probably come back from the dead by it's own people, but during that power vacuum, I'd suspect China would find a way to grab a piece of power.

The future of civilization is in Asia. They are the seeding nations as the others wither and die. When a new slot in the power hierarchy becomes available, theres going to be a big pig fest.


China is becoming more democratic though, and that's nice. But even a democracy can do the dirtiest of things.
 
I actually agree with portalstormzzzzz here, places like China, India, Indonesia (and of course Japan, which already kicks ass) are going to be the future powers of the world.
 
It shift all the time. Africa was the firs power house, then Persia, then Greece, then Rome, then Franko-Germany, then a bunch of switching between Euro nations, then the US took the lead. Today, the US is a dieing nation. I can't see a "united" states in 2015.

Asia is rising in power now. Russia, China, and Iran are the power hoses. I don't see Iran making it far alone, and they'll probably unite with Russia. China needs a market, as does Russia. So you've got the precedence of an Asian Union. I think war may be the new market site for then next decade, as it's the only thing going to be certain.

There are also loads of wars probably going to add up to collectively become WW3.

Iran vs Iraq & Saudi Arabia
Israel vs Palestine
Russia& China vs the EU
NAU vs itself
Japan and North Korea
China and itself

Just to name a few.
 
PortalStormzzzz said:
HOW THE HELL DO YOU GET ECOLI IN MEAT? DID THEY SHAT ON IT OR SOMETHING?
Click to expand...

Dude... E. Coli is from the intestines. It's not from SHIT... It's in feces, yes. But you'll also get it when you start chopping up animals like people in the world do. The reason it is in feces is because feces and our feces alike travels through the intestines and gets broken down by the E. Coli and other tiny little germs.


Oh, and Iran is not a powerhouse when compared to the other players on stage. They're only just now getting nuclear energy/weapons... so don't even go that route.

Russia is also not even close to being a power house. Russia is still crippled by corruption and a horrible economy. The only power they have comes from leftover nuclear arsenals.
 
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