Cindy Sheehan?

[Razor]

I've never really been interested or bothered, or to be honest, cared about what this woman had to say. To me, she was just another woman and i often thought to myself when information was posted on here about what her son would think about what his mother was doing "for" him and whether he would support her.

http://www.indepundit.com/archive2/2006/03/cindy_revisited.html#
http://www.indepundit.com/archive2/2006/02/the_cindy_circu.html#

A lot of the families that have also lost loved ones in the Iraq and Afghanistan war want nothing to do with her and want in no way to be part of what she stands for or support her and from what a lot of people saying, her son most probably wouldn't support her opinion either, just her right to say it.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45826

 

[Icarusintel]

As much as I sympathize with her, I think she recieved undue attention. Merely because she was protesting the war she got a whole lot of airtime. I understand that she lost her son, and that is very tragic, but none of the other people who have lost sons or daughters in either Iraq or Afghanistan have recieved much, if any, airtime at all.

While I may not be against the war, I feel she certainly has the right to spread her message. Honestly, though, it's not really going to do anything.

 

[VictimOfScience]

It just makes me annoyed to hear her name now. Loads of people have lost their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, nephews, cousins, etc, in war. She wasn't camping out by the Bush ranch in Texas when her son joined the armed forces. He joined of his own accord and knew the risks going in. Policemen and firefighters do it all the time as well. Its a job like any other. You go and you do it. The risks are different of course: At my job I might risk electrocution whereas he might face getting blown up or shot by enemy combatants.

Frankly, I think she is doing her son a disservice by protesting the war so vehemently only after he died. She has every right to say whatever she wants, but to be seen as such a crusader only after her son dies is to me very ignorant.

 

[Raziaar]

Man. she got wasted in those two links.


But seriously, Cindy started off as a rightfully disgruntled mom, and ended up a mascot for a circus show.


Not even a headstone on her son's grave. That's just awful... with all that money she could have used, too! Only a small portion could have gotten a beautiful headstone.

 

[CptStern]

it's a testamnet to the times that a soccor mom with little to no knowledge of the reasons behind the war gets more air time than the people who actually know what they're talking about. I guess facts, figures and plain old investigative research takes a back seat to emotial pleas ..but I guess it appeals to those with attention deficit disorders ..more so than boring old stats and facts.

She could potentially be the turning point in the public's perception surrounding the war ...never underestimate a soccor mom ..she may not be all that bright but she has done what no one else has: shed light on the immorality behind the war

thos people in on the pro-war camp in those articles need a kick in the teeth ..they'll stupidly support their idiotic president no matter how many americans die. Funny how I dont see them lining up to join the war effort. Put your money where your mouth is and stop playing lip service to something you dont even understand ..the whole protest warrior type movement is full of deluded people who havent a clue of what they're talking about

 

[Raziaar]

it's a testamnet to the times that a soccor mom with little to no knowledge of the reasons behind the war gets more air time than the people who actually know what they're talking about. She could potentially be the turning point in the public's perception surrounding the war ...never underestimate a soccor mom ..she may not be all that bright but she has done what no one else has: shed light on the immorality behind the war

At least light has now been shed on the immorality of her unwillingness to put a headstone on her sons grave! But I guess she's the type of soccor mom that buys cashmere sweaters instead.

 

[CptStern]

that's just stupid raziaar and beneath you

 

[Raziaar]

that's just stupid raziaar and beneath you

Why? Dude... I am *PISSED* when I read that she didn't buy a headstone for her son. I'm not throwing out there as some sort of weak insult. I'm infuriated that her sons grave is markerless. It goes against everything I stand for, and it should go against what she stands for too.

 

[CptStern]

the military provides headstones for all soldiers killed in action ...can that be why she refused a headstone? there was talk that a lot of parents were angry at the government because their children's headstones had US propaganda supporting the war ....I cant find any credible sources so I cant verify if that is indeed the case


but I find it funny that many right wing nutjobs villify her yet completely ignore the lies and deception put forth by the bush admin that led to the deaths in the first place

 

[Raziaar]

the military provides headstones for all soldiers killed in action ...can that be why she refused a headstone? there was talk that a lot of parents were angry at the government because their children's headstones had US propaganda supporting the war ....I cant find any credible sources so I cant verify if that is indeed the case


but I find it funny that many right wing nutjobs villify her yet completely ignore the lies and deception put forth by the bush admin that led to the deaths in the first place

That doesn't stop her from spending a tiny portion of all that money, a few thousand dollars, to buy a nice custom, loving headstone. Beloved son, etc etc.

 

[CptStern]

before you judge perhaps you can find out why she did what she did? oh and common headstones are not allowed in military cemetaries


but I find it deplorable that people attack her character rather than her message ...almost as if they have no choice because they couldnt successfully argue in favour of the war if they tried

 

[Raziaar]

before you judge perhaps you can find out why she did what she did? oh and common headstones are not allowed in military cemetaries


but I find it deplorable that people attack her character rather than her message ...almost as if they have no choice because they couldnt successfully argue in favour of the war if they tried

Unfortunately her message is little more than 'Bush is a Terrorists, lets bring our troops home, insurgents are freedom fighters'. Everybody is saying that. There's some good in what she says, but most of it is rewashed.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I don't support the war at all, but I'd be pretty pissed if I didn't get a headstone.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[CptStern]

people are only interested in sound bites ...they only want to read a few sentences, the only want to see a quick summary of what's going on .."bush is a terrorist" is what people remember ..you can shove this right in their face and alll they will remember is "commie bastard thinks Bush is a terrorist"

it's like laziness and deliberately ignoring facts are part of the right wing character



AL: I'm sure he's beyond caring ...oh and I wouldnt want a military headstone proclaiming war propaganda

 

[K e r b e r o s]

AL: I'm sure he's beyond caring ...oh and I wouldnt want a military headstone proclaiming war propaganda

But you don't speak for the corpse that has no Identification from it's own mother, now do you? She was a media sell out. And she sold her own family to be slaves of its attention. What a shame. Glad my mothers not like that.

 

[CptStern]

blah blah blah ..but your government lying their way into iraq is far less a crime ...right? where's your outrage that bush sent 2000+ americans to their graves for nothing?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Where's the outrage the Al-Aqsa Matyrs have for sending +2,600 Palestinians to their deaths in a war against Israel?

They support their "troops". They support their "war". Just like I support my troops. The difference in the supporting of the war is this ... I actually don't approve of Iraq. I'm confused about it. I ask questions about its legitimacy. A Palestinian terrorist, or anyone whose a terrorist for that matter, rarely asks questions.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

AL: I'm sure he's beyond caring ...oh and I wouldnt want a military headstone proclaiming war propaganda

Like I said, I'm against the war, and wouldn't want war propaganda on the headstone, but I'd still be pissed off laying in an unmarked grave. Who's going to pour an annual bottle of scotch on the soil, if they can't find me?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ See, exactly.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Also, a lot of people have promised to dance on my grave. Should I deny them that pleasure?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[CptStern]

Like I said, I'm against the war, and wouldn't want war propaganda on the headstone, but I'd still be pissed off laying in an unmarked grave. Who's going to pour an annual bottle of scotch on the soil, if they can't find me?

-Angry Lawyer

trust me, everyone will know where you are

 

[CptStern]

Where's the outrage the Al-Aqsa Matyrs have for sending +2,600 Palestinians to their deaths in a war against Israel?

They support their "troops". They support their "war". Just like I support my troops. The difference in the supporting of the war is this ... I actually don't approve of Iraq. I'm confused about it. I ask questions about its legitimacy. A Palestinian terrorist, or anyone whose a terrorist for that matter, rarely asks questions.

in their minds they're fighting an occupying force ..in the minds of american men and women fighting in iraq they think they're getting revenge for 9/11 ..which one is more of a lie?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

in their minds they're fighting an occupying force ..in the minds of american men and women fighting in iraq they think they're getting revenge for 9/11 ..which one is more of a lie?

That depends upon how well you dress it up. In the American people's minds, they don't have a clue about why Iraq was chosen as a target, but the benefit is, Sodamn Insane who wanted to whipe Israel off the map is no longer a power.

In the Palestinian minds, they also believe the Quran to be Gods word on how to destroy the jews. A referral:

Hamas Video:
We will drink the blood of the Jews
Half a month after its electoral victory, a Hamas website presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. One message was for Jews, whose blood Hamas promises to drink until Jews "leave the Muslim countries," and the second to a mother, as she helps dress her son for battle prior to his suicide terror mission.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

Also ...

Muhammad Demands Muslims Kill Jews
PA academic and religious leaders teach that Islam is at war against Jews. They cite Islamic sources to demand Jews be hated and killed. Tens of times in recent years they have taught that the hadith demanding Muslims kill Jews is a current obligation, in order to bring "the Hour" - the Resurrection. Two examples are Dr. Hassan Khader, founder Al-Quds Encyclopedia on PA TV on July 13, 2003 and Dr. Ibrahim Madi on PA TV on April 12, 2002.

Do you agree with this, CptStern?

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_StoneTree_7.asx

I have'nt heard an American say we will drink the blood of the Insurgents. Thats a little beyond Lunacy.

 

[Razor]

in their minds they're fighting an occupying force ..in the minds of american men and women fighting in iraq they think they're getting revenge for 9/11 ..which one is more of a lie?

The British forces aren't out there thinking that and a lot of the American troops i have spoken to who are back don't say that, they're there helping to rebuild a country. This is the news that doesn't get shown on tv or the papers because it doesn't sell, only bad news sells, stories of US troops and British troops building a new Iraq doesn't sell so isn't shown.

As far as i am aware, her son wasn't buried in a military cemetry but when you're entire family is against you and vilify you for not having considered putting a grave stone on their dead relatives grave...you have to ask questions about what Cindy Sheehan is doing and exactly who she is doing it for. Her son volunteered for the army in 2004 knowing full well he'd probably be off to Iraq, he went to Iraq and he died honourably trying to rescue his friends from being massacred by the Insurgency but died in the process. And would you really say to all the mothers and fathers and family members of the people who have lost family in Iraq and support what their children did and don't support Cindy Sheehan that all they deserve is a kick in the teeth?

If you support the war and support what the troops are doing over there, it doesn't make you a right wing idealist and if you don't support the war, that doesn't make you a left wing nutjob.

The only way i would ever listen to Cindy Sheehan and her rhetoric is if the families of the other fallen heroes and soldiers agreed with her and supported her, which they don't, if the soldiers coming home from Iraq supported her then i would listen to what she had to say, but they don't support her. The only people who support her are the same people who disagreed with the war in the first place and look to Cindy Sheehan as a mouthpiece for their cause.

We aren't coming out of Iraq straight away and a withdrawal plan has been setup, for the UK forces anyway, which would mean that when forces leave Iraq, the vacuum is taken up by trained up and professional members of the Iraqi police and the Iraqi military that can move their country a head.

If i am ever asked to go over to Afghanistan or Iraq, which i might be asked to either this year or next, i would hope my mum would understand the reasons i went and support me, even though she might not support why i was there, i should help she at least supported my decision to go.

 

[Razor]

in their minds they're fighting an occupying force ..in the minds of american men and women fighting in iraq they think they're getting revenge for 9/11 ..which one is more of a lie?

men, women and children who are out shopping for fruit and veg at the local market aren't an occupying force. School children on a packed bus on their way to school aren't an occupying force.

The reason people attack you Cpt Stern so tirelessly isn't what you say but what you don't say. There are news articles on websites about US forces training up the Iraqi army to help Iraqi people lead a safer life, which you don't post about. The Iraqi military has lost 2,000+ soldiers against the same people who are fighting the American and British forces. You don't post about the aid efforts made by the allied forces to help rebuild hospitals, schools, fix water supplies and help the local people and educate the local people on landmines and proper farming techniques. The only thing you post about are numbers of dead civilians in Iraq, number of dead allied soldiers, proof that Bush lied to the American people, proof that Dick Cheney is an bad, bad man that should be thrown in jail for corruption and murder.

The reason i don't respect you is because you are just one sided and with a singular view that Iraq is bad and are no better then Bush, you don't enlighten people to the good that allied troops have brought to the people of Iraq. You post about soldiers dying in Iraq but have absolutely no idea why they it and just label them as stupid, ignorant people who are there to take revenge for 9/11...most soldiers aren't that stupid. You just post proof that supports your views whilst not posting ones that don't support. I think the Iraq war is bad, i think it was wrong to go with the UN support and i think we should have waited till all political options were exhausted, but i also support the troops over there and would be honoured to get the letter through the door calling me up to go. Does that make me ignorant, stupid, and bad? The day i come in here i post the news that i have been called up will be one of the proudest moments of my life.

 

[CptStern]

The British forces aren't out there thinking that and a lot of the American troops i have spoken to who are back don't say that, they're there helping to rebuild a country.

a country they destroyed. Say what you will but the stats say differently ..over 80% of american soldiers believe they're there to exact revenge on saddam for 9/11

This is the news that doesn't get shown on tv or the papers because it doesn't sell, only bad news sells, stories of US troops and British troops building a new Iraq doesn't sell so isn't shown.

an iraq they destroyed ..how is that a noble cause?

As far as i am aware, her son wasn't buried in a military cemetry but when you're entire family is against you and vilify you for not having considered putting a grave stone on their dead relatives grave...you have to ask questions about what Cindy Sheehan is doing and exactly who she is doing it for.

I dont know the circumstances and I've already stipulated that I dont support her cause but agree with the overall reasons behind it (the war was a sham etc)

Her son volunteered for the army in 2004 knowing full well he'd probably be off to Iraq, he went to Iraq and he died honourably trying to rescue his friends from being massacred by the Insurgency but died in the process.

massacred by the insurgency? please, there has yet to be any single incident where coalition troops were "massacred"

And would you really say to all the mothers and fathers and family members of the people who have lost family in Iraq and support what their children did and don't support Cindy Sheehan that all they deserve is a kick in the teeth?

your putting words in my mouth, I've never said or implied that

If you support the war and support what the troops are doing over there, it doesn't make you a right wing idealist and if you don't support the war, that doesn't make you a left wing nutjob.

yes because it's all black and white, there is no room for shades of grey :upstare: ...supporting the war means willfully supporting the destruction of a nation and the slaghter of it's people and of the young men and women who sacrifice their lives for the greed of a few

The only way i would ever listen to Cindy Sheehan and her rhetoric is if the families of the other fallen heroes and soldiers agreed with her and supported her, which they don't, if the soldiers coming home from Iraq supported her then i would listen to what she had to say, but they don't support her. The only people who support her are the same people who disagreed with the war in the first place and look to Cindy Sheehan as a mouthpiece for their cause.

yes because the anti-war movement is full of idiots who just latch on to whatever is popular at the time

...cindy isnt alone:

http://www.mfso.org/
http://www.mfaw.org.uk/
http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php
http://www.ivaw.net/
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7562.htm
http://ftssoldier.blogspot.com/
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=metropole&pl=1
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7623.htm
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=6634

just because you've never heard of military families/soldiers/veterans disagreeing with the war doesnt mean it doesnt exist

We aren't coming out of Iraq straight away and a withdrawal plan has been setup, for the UK forces anyway, which would mean that when forces leave Iraq, the vacuum is taken up by trained up and professional members of the Iraqi police and the Iraqi military that can move their country a head.

which wouldnt have been necessary (in the case of iraq) had iraq not been invaded under false pretenses

men, women and children who are out shopping for fruit and veg at the local market aren't an occupying force. School children on a packed bus on their way to school aren't an occupying force.

yes because insurgent = terrorist ...why not just call them what they are: "evil-doers" ...it boggles my mind how soldiers/soldier-wanna-bes cant understand that in any given occupation there are people (probably much like you) who would immediately take up arms to fight the occupiers ...I'm willing to bet that if the UK were occupied you'd join the resistence, am I wrong? what do you think the occupiers will call you? freedom fighters or terrorists? ...see what you and many like you dont/wont/cant understand is that the occupying force has no interest in giving a clear picture who exactly they're fighting ..it is in their best interests to blur the line between insugent and terrorist to de-legitimize any insurgency and to paint them with a single brush: that of terrorist

The reason people attack you Cpt Stern so tirelessly isn't what you say but what you don't say

nope, the reason why people attack me is because at the convienent moment they have an opening ...funny how NOBODY ever attacks me after I post evidence of wrong doing ...because they CANT. They'd rather attack my character or a word I may have said or whathaveyou but they absolutely NEVER attack the evidence ..because they cant/wont, so in retaliation they attack the messenger instead ..it's nothing new ..this happens every single time I post information that is completely irrefutable.

There are news articles on websites about US forces training up the Iraqi army to help Iraqi people lead a safer life, which you don't post about.

explain to me why I should? why should repairing something you broke merit praise?

You don't post about the aid efforts made by the allied forces to help rebuild hospitals, schools, fix water supplies and help the local people and educate the local people on landmines and proper farming techniques.

you destroyed it ffs ...you (US & UK) blew the ****ing crap out of the water treatment plants and allowed over a million iraqis to die in horrible conditions yet I'm supposed to care that a few iraqi soldiers are beating their ak's into ploughshares thatnks to the coalition? you must be out of your ****ing mind

The only thing you post about are numbers of dead civilians in Iraq, number of dead allied soldiers, proof that Bush lied to the American people, proof that Dick Cheney is an bad, bad man that should be thrown in jail for corruption and murder.

would you rather I lied and said everthing is just dandy? This war was based on DELIBERATE lies and manipulation ..if you took the time to actually look at the evidence you'd see that ..till then you're just an apologist for this war. The deaths of over 200,000 iraqis must be worth something for god's sakes!!

The reason i don't respect you is because you...

remind me why this is supposed to matter to me :|

...are just one sided and with a singular view that Iraq is bad

because there is only one side ffs ...iraq has become hell on earth ..and for what reason? Bush and Blair lied their way into iraq and hundreds of thousands of people paid the price for it ...and I supposed to catipulate and accept it as a "regretable mistake" when it;s prefectly clear it was planned all along? spare me your miniscule attempts at trying to right a monumental wrong

and are no better then Bush, you don't enlighten people to the good that allied troops have brought to the people of Iraq.

like what ffs? death and destruction? Iraq was far better off with saddam in place. YOU CANNOT DISPUTE THIS. the facts speak for themselves

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0406-01.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-01-25-dean-iraq-today_x.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/04/1078378906414.html?from=storyrhs

"LONDON, Nov 26 Reuters- Abuse of human rights in Iraq is as bad now as it was under Saddam Hussein, if not worse, former prime minister Iyad Allawi said in an interview published on Sunday.

"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse. It is an appropriate comparison," Allawi told British newspaper The Observer."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1651789,00.html


in 3 short years the number of dead as a direct result of the invasion will be higher then in the 30 year reign of saddam. That's just insane

You post about soldiers dying in Iraq but have absolutely no idea why they it and just label them as stupid, ignorant people who are there to take revenge for 9/11...most soldiers aren't that stupid.

yes because I said they were stupid :upstare: ..I posted a poll of US soldiers ...THEY overwhelmingly said THEY believe the war in iraq is to exact revenge on saddam

You just post proof that supports your views whilst not posting ones that don't support.

please explain how this is wrong ..when you talk about the military do you say "a soldiers life is serving his country, sometimes some of us murder indiscrimately but for the most part we dont"

"this figher is reliable, heavily armed and manuevers well ..sometimes it uses weapons to obliterate civilians but mostly we like how it looks"

I think the Iraq war is bad, i think it was wrong to go with the UN support and i think we should have waited till all political options were exhausted,

dont you get it? there were never any intentions to negotiate this peacefully the US would never have allowed saddam to continue to rule iraq. THEY FIXED THE INTELLIGENCE when they stated their case for war. They deliberately lied to justify invasion

but i also support the troops over there and would be honoured to get the letter through the door calling me up to go. Does that make me ignorant, stupid, and bad? The day i come in here i post the news that i have been called up will be one of the proudest moments of my life.

/me shakes head in frustration

I cant believe there are people so naive that they would wuilllingly throw their lives away in an unjust and morally reprehensible war. You are supporting the murders of thousands of people ..let that be on your conscience

 

[Razor]

You are supporting the murders of thousands of people ..let that be on your conscience

You made some good points in your post but saying i support the murder of innocent people is absolutely disgusting and proves you have no idea who i am and what i stand for.

please explain how this is wrong ..when you talk about the military do you say "a soldiers life is serving our country, sometimes some of us murder indiscrimately but for the most part we dont"

"this figher is reliable, heavily armed and manuevers well ..sometimes it uses weapons to oblierate civilians"

a soldiers life is serving his people and his country but they are just normal people in a uniform trained to do a job that no one else can do, these people are mostly great and good people but they are just normal people and sometimes normal people in both the civilian and the military world murder people. There are soldiers out there rebuilding schools and hospitals, etc, etc, etc, teaching the Iraqi soldiers how to fight against terrorists. But you just constantly focus on the negatives things, what about all the soldier's lifes lost fighting to stop terrorist attacks against innocent Iraqi people, are they just murderers to you as well?

With your last comment in you responce, i think you're just a very smart sensationalist and either won't or can't see things from both sides of the picture.

edit: http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23913/pub_detail.asp

So the US soldiers are training Iraqi troops to murder?

 

[CptStern]

You made some good points in your post but saying i support the murder of innocent people is absolutely disgusting and proves you have no idea who i am and what i stand for.

once again you misunderstand me ..it is supporting the murders of thousands of people ...by playing along you are legitimizing the false reasons for going to war, you are lending support to a war machine that's only purpose is to deceive the voting public into supporting them in their wars of conquest ...just as the germans who supported the nazis are partially responsible for the crimes committed so too are the citizens who would support this illegal and immoral war ..stop taking things so personally and look at the bigger picture

a soldiers life is serving his people and his country but they are just normal people in a uniform trained to do a job that no one else can do, these people are mostly great and good people but they are just normal people and sometimes normal people in both the civilian and the military world murder people.

yes but the difference between a layperson and a soldier is that they dont kill without question. Again you're looking at soldiers as individuals when I'm commenting on the military as a whole

There are soldiers out there rebuilding schools and hospitals, etc, etc, etc, teaching the Iraqi soldiers how to fight against terrorists.

those terrorists wouldnt be there if not for the invasion, those hospitals wouldnt be in disrepair/destroyed if not for the invasion. Bagdhad has had rolling blackouts and less than 6 hours of electricity daily since march 2003 ..some areas of iraq still have no power. Doctors performing surgery by candle light, hospitals short on everything from life saving medicines to every day supplies like gloves and gowns ...how can you possibly say it is improving when the exact opposite is true.

But you just constantly focus on the negatives things, what about all the soldier's lifes lost fighting to stop terrorist attacks against innocent Iraqi people, are they just murderers to you as well?

omg why cant you understand this: THIS WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED HAD YOU NOT INVADED

With your last comment in you responce, i think you're just a very smart sensationalist and either won't or can't see things from both sides of the picture.

edit: http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23913/pub_detail.asp

So the US soldiers are training Iraqi troops to murder?

they wouldnt have to train them at all had they not invaded. Why dont you look with just as fine a toothed comb at those who started this war in the first place. They dont care about soldiers dying ..they couldnt care less about the 16,000+ who are severly injured due to their actions ..they couldnt care less for the hundreds of thousands who have died since the invasion began ...if they did they wouldnt have used FALSE information to justify their invasion of iraq ...they absolutely knew what they would find because they already knew there wasnt wmd, they had been saying that for years.


I wrote far more than what you responded to ..you could at least acknowledge my points

 

[K e r b e r o s]

..it is supporting the murders of thousands of people ...by playing along you are legitimizing the false reasons for going to war, you are lending support to a war machine that's only purpose is to deceive the voting public into supporting them in their wars of conquest ...just as the germans who supported the nazis are partially responsible for the crimes committed so too are the citizens who would support this illegal and immoral war ..stop taking things so personally and look at the bigger picture

Stop looking at it so personally when you basically accused Razor of supporting the "deaths, even accidental ones or; ones not intentional" of thousands of people?

Stop this nonsense CptStern. We're not over their murdering thousands of people: Sodamn Insane (Saddam Huessein) purposefully emplaced his military structures and underground hide outs inside the Residential and Commercial districts of Iraqs own cities. He hoped to use the surrounding civilian population as a human shield; believing that if there was a large enough presence of civilians around the area of his military networks, that the Coalition would'nt attack them.

And those cruise missles and 'smart bombs' were not directly responsible for the civilian deaths. No, instead we have two factors to consider: The Civilian population refused to evacuate or move away from these military bunkers, knowing full well that they would become targets eventually. And finally, that the bombs were guided directly at the military installations themselves and not a single house. The blasts did'nt kill anyone directly, but at most, from the Shrapnel launched from the blast sites.

These even meager few things again tells me we were not intentionally targeting Iraqi civilians. Thats a mantra you're going to have to get off of. Abu Gharib, I understand in full. But that, does'nt correlate with the bombings.
Those are just civilian contractors controlling a military prison and running it like shit, alongside the CIA which is trying to justify the torture of prisoners.

Yes, we've agreed its wrong, but why I bring it up is for a comparison. Compare the intentional beatings and killings of prisoners, with the unintentional killing of civilians through shrapnel wounds from target blasts that were detonated over or inside Saddams military installations.

The bombers, the guidance systems, were not intending nor had malicious intent against the Iraqi civilians when they launched their ordinance. The places that were hit were always military in nature or had military officers and soldiers occupying the area that was struck. The civilians that happened to be either stubbourn or forced to stay in there homes under Saddams emergency systems, were killed by Shrapnel, not the blasts directly.

I'll even cite Iraqibodycount.net:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/bodycount63.php?ts=1141924452

yes but the difference between a layperson and a soldier is that they dont kill without question. Again you're looking at soldiers as individuals when I'm commenting on the military as a whole

Well, this is where I'll agree Peace Keepers to be more effective.

those terrorists wouldnt be there if not for the invasion,

The terrorists were already there training as Fedayeen to wage a war against Israel.

Source:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31869
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen_Saddam#Iraqi_insurgency
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp
http://www.wpmi.com/news/commentary/story.aspx?content_id=05843205-D93A-48C5-A7B6-C23082FC4517

Drop by drop, isolated news stories and emerging documents erode the popular myth that Saddam Hussein was clueless about terrorism. These revelations undermine war critics' efforts to whitewash Baghdad's ancien regime - such as when Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada declared: "There was no terrorists in Iraq." Likewise, Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., describes a "nonexistent relationship between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein."

They were there. And Saddam was training them. He was not clueless.

those hospitals wouldnt be in disrepair/destroyed if not for the invasion.

You mean, the Hospitals the insurgents used as redoubts against US Forces?

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/168bbfd6fbd3956b85256ffc00475ee5?OpenDocument

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq -- A number of insurgents were killed Saturday night when they used a civilian hospital in Hadithah to conduct an attack on coalition forces.

Three Marines and one Sailor were killed in the engagement.

While responding to small arms fire near the Hadithah Dam, Marines observed civilians running from the Hadithah Hospital. The unit was then attacked by a suicide vehicle-borne improvised explosive device, which impacted a nearby building, destroying it and causing the hospital to catch fire.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2004/12/11/story179899.asp

Iraqi Insurgents used the volatile city of Ramadi’s main hospital to ambush US soldiers, the military said today, firing rocket propelled grenades and small ...

http://www.noticias.info/Archivo/2004/200412/20041212/20041212_42097.shtm
http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=2963

Bagdhad has had rolling blackouts and less than 6 hours of electricity daily since march 2003

Does'nt help when the Insurgents cut the power:

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_384394.html
http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/10/15/insurgents_cut_the_power_in_iraq/

It also does'nt help when the Iraqi Military destroyed their own power facilities while the US was advancing into Baghdad.

You can't even suggest that this is due to the United States. The US forces are trying to bring power back online, and the Insurgents keep sabotaging it.

how can you possibly say it is improving when the exact opposite is true.

Well, its all relative I think. We know improvements are actually occuring over there, but you seem to be one to ignore evidence of this:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/part5.html

1. A "back to school" campaign delivered 1,500 kits with book bags, notebooks, pens and pencils that helped 120,000 students in Baghdad return to their classrooms in May 2003. In preparation for the new school year, 1.2 million kits for secondary school students and 4,000 kits for their schools including desks, chairs, blackboards, and bookshelves are arriving in Iraq.

2. Malnutrition contributed to high mortality rates in Iraq during Saddam's rule. The food aid for Iraq has continued to supply the public distribution system and has allowed the majority of Iraqis access to food rations. On July 15, the World Food Program reported that nearly 1.5 million metric tons of food, or more than the three months supply required to keep the distribution system operating, have been dispatched to Iraq. An additional 2.2 million metric tons of food will arrive by the end of October. These steps will contribute to reversing malnutrition.

3. To date, 22.3 million doses of measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio vaccines have been provided, enough to vaccinate 4.2 million children.

4. Nearly all Iraqi children have finished their exams from last year and are ready to start a new school year in the fall. All universities are reopened.
A $53 million program to rehabilitate more than 100 schools and clinics is underway.

5. In the southern region, more than 50 schools are in various stages of rehabilitation. More than 600 schools will be in "like new" condition in time for the beginning of classes.
Five million revised math and science textbooks will be ready before the start of the school year. etc.

Visit that page for more.

http://www.portaliraq.com/news/Improvements+become+noticeable+at+Iraq's+southern+port__683.html
http://www.portaliraq.com/news/Iraq...economic,+security+improvements__1111348.html

Perhaps you should do a quick google search on them.

omg why cant you understand this: THIS WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED HAD YOU NOT INVADED

We can't backtrack. We invaded. Without a good, backed up reason. Okay. We ****ed up. Big time. And yet, now we have to clean up the mess. Restoring power, economy, political system, and security are some of our top priorities now.

Its no secret the Insurgents don't want any of those to succeed.

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/09/some-entities-want-iraq-to-fail.html

The terrorist movement in Iraq, at times graced with the label of "insurgency," is in no position to impose its will on the nation. With the help of its outside backers, it could, to be sure, continue kidnappings and killings for years.


More than a dozen countries (Colombia, Peru, Malaysia, the Philippines, Algeria, Egypt, etc.) have experienced similar terrorist movements in recent decades. In every case, the terrorists, having pushed the limits of brutality as far as they could, were ultimately defeated.…


The ultimate reason for terrorist movements' failure is the same that constitutes their raison d'etre: Individuals and groups choose terrorism because they know they cannot mobilize popular support.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/22/iraq/main703441.shtml

Another good read.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-01/2006-01-27-voa50.cfm?CFID=36364073&CFTOKEN=79606074

Colonel McMaster says when his forces first arrived in northern Iraq last May, insurgents, including foreign fighters and Saddam loyalists, had choked the life out of the region by conducting systematic attacks throughout the area.

McMaster says many of the insurgents infiltrated the city of Tal Afar, which lies about 60 kilometers from porous Syrian border.

"What the enemy really needed to do is intimidate the population in the area, to give them safe-haven so people would be afraid to cooperate with our forces or Iraqi security forces trying to bring security to the area," he said. "They also hoped to incite sectarian violence, which they did by collapsing the police force, turning the police force, in effect, into a sectarian militia that further fed the cycle of sectarian violence."

A turning point came last September when, for the first time, U.S.-trained Iraqi security forces took the lead in a major military operation against insurgents in Tal Afar.

Colonel McMaster says the Iraqi army and police forces backed by U.S. troops successfully drove most of the foreign fighters out of the area.

"As a result of our combined efforts with Iraqi security forces, some brave Iraqi leaders, soldiers and police I am happy to report to you that the situation in Tal Afar, and in western Niniweh, has fundamentally changed," he added. "What we have been able to achieve there together alongside our Iraqi brothers is to bring life back to this area, to rekindle hope."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/01/mil-060127-voa04.htm

Everyone knows the Insurgents are hindering progress. Everyone.

Hey! Even CBS knows!

they wouldnt have to train them at all had they not invaded.

Yea but c'mon. We arrived there, without good pretenses, without a good reason, and its just one of things we can do to help the country out.

Why dont you look with just as fine a toothed comb at those who started this war in the first place. They dont care about soldiers dying ..they couldnt care less about the 16,000+ who are severly injured due to their actions ..they couldnt care less for the hundreds of thousands who have died since the invasion began ...if they did they wouldnt have used FALSE information to justify their invasion of iraq ...they absolutely knew what they would find because they already knew there wasnt wmd, they had been saying that for years.

The Administration learned a hard lesson. They don't know everything -- but I do know that they care for the people over there, otherwise, why would we try to help them?

You need to review your agenda CptStern. Your political to do list is beginning to irk some of us who know full well what good is happening over there. I've know the intent of the Insurgents all along, and over the past year or so, they've been stealing, kidnapping and murdering security officials just to prepare those mosk bombings.

There's videos of this, do a search CptStern. Its time for you to learn that we're not there to murder civilians.

 

[Razor]

You could also argue Cpt Stern that Iraq's problems would be no where near as bad if the people helping to rebuild the country weren't getting murdered, kidnapped, blown up and shot at by a bunch of crazed religious fanatics and the Insurgency.

I might not of supported the reasons for going to war but i do support the troops over their doing their job as best they can and trying to help the Iraqi people by rebuilding it...even if they are getting shot at and murdered, etc. A British commander in Basra said a few weeks ago that they can only spend about 40% of the their time helping to rebuild Iraq and doing all the vital work because the other 60% they had to police the Iraqi people and stop the terrorists blowing the innocent Iraqi people up who just want to get on with their lives, and the Insurgents who were shooting at the soldiers.

But like i said, there is so much good work going on in Iraq and so much progress being made and i'm sure if you looked really hard, you might be able to find some news about it as unfortunately, such news isn't covered by the mainstream media.

 

[CptStern]

Stop looking at it so personally when you basically accused Razor of supporting the "deaths, even accidental ones or; ones not intentional" of thousands of people?

I quantified it but obviously you have a reading comprehension problem

Stop this nonsense CptStern. We're not over their murdering thousands of people: Sodamn Insane (Saddam Huessein) purposefully emplaced his military structures and underground hide outs inside the Residential and Commercial districts of Iraqs own cities. He hoped to use the surrounding civilian population as a human shield; believing that if there was a large enough presence of civilians around the area of his military networks, that the Coalition would'nt attack them.

blah blah blah 7000 dead civilians in 3 weeks is a lot of huge freaking guns on top of orphanages and Civic centers and what have you ...7000 kerberos that's a lot of misses with "smart" bombs

And those cruise missles and 'smart bombs' were not directly responsible for the civilian deaths. No, instead we have two factors to consider: The Civilian population refused to evacuate or move away from these military bunkers, knowing full well that they would become targets eventually. And finally, that the bombs were guided directly at the military installations themselves and not a single house. The blasts did'nt kill anyone directly, but at most, from the Shrapnel launched from the blast sites.

yes you're right ..this poor little boy's pregnant mother was strapped to a an anti aircraft gun the day her and her entire family were vapourized

but you dont seem to give a shit about them ..no siree ..it's all a regretable mistake and it was allll saddam's fault ..it was saddam's fault the US lied and invaded ..it was Saddam's fault they made up false evidence to use against him, it was saddam's fault the US chose to indiscrimately bomb the living **** out of iraq

These even meager few things again tells me we were not intentionally targeting Iraqi civilians. Thats a mantra you're going to have to get off of. Abu Gharib, I understand in full. But that, does'nt correlate with the bombings.

yes because all 7000 dead that died during the invasion phase just happened to be standing next to a military installation

Those are just civilian contractors controlling a military prison and running it like shit, alongside the CIA which is trying to justify the torture of prisoners

once again you havent a ****ing clue of what you're talking about THERE ARE NO CIVILIAN CONTRACTORS at gitmo ..the order came from the DoD.

Yes, we've agreed its wrong, but why I bring it up is for a comparison. Compare the intentional beatings and killings of prisoners, with the unintentional killing of civilians through shrapnel wounds from target blasts that were detonated over or inside Saddams military installations.

The bombers, the guidance systems, were not intending nor had malicious intent against the Iraqi civilians when they launched their ordinance. The places that were hit were always military in nature or had military officers and soldiers occupying the area that was struck. The civilians that happened to be either stubbourn or forced to stay in there homes under Saddams emergency systems, were killed by Shrapnel, not the blasts directly.

yes it their fault they were bombed ..it's their fault the US lied and invaded iraq, it;s their fault for being alive in the first place ..had they never been born the US wouldnt have killed them ..stupid civilians

I'll even cite Iraqibodycount.net:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/bodycount63.php?ts=1141924452

what exactly are you citing here?

The terrorists were already there training as Fedayeen to wage a war against Israel.

Source:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31869
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen_Saddam#Iraqi_insurgency
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp
http://www.wpmi.com/news/commentary/story.aspx?content_id=05843205-D93A-48C5-A7B6-C23082FC4517

please explain how any of that justifies invasion of iraq?

They were there. And Saddam was training them. He was not clueless.

again please explain how that justifies invading iraq

You mean, the Hospitals the insurgents used as redoubts against US Forces?

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/168bbfd6fbd3956b85256ffc00475ee5?OpenDocument



http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2004/12/11/story179899.asp



http://www.noticias.info/Archivo/2004/200412/20041212/20041212_42097.shtm
http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=2963

please explain how that has anything to do with the fact that hospitals are in disrepair?

Does'nt help when the Insurgents cut the power:

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_384394.html
http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/10/15/insurgents_cut_the_power_in_iraq/

umm what am I looking at here? you're talking about one isolated incident ...oh and dont ever use blogs as a source

It also does'nt help when the Iraqi Military destroyed their own power facilities while the US was advancing into Baghdad.

source? still dont see how that caused all of iraq to be plunged into darkness I dont see how that destroyed the water treatment plants, the infrastructure or anything remotely necessary to sustain human life ..funny how you rail about the insurgents about cutting power but could give 2 shits about the bombing of water treament plants that killed over a million iraqis ..your a hypocrite

You can't even suggest that this is due to the United States. The US forces are trying to bring power back online, and the Insurgents keep sabotaging it.

source? puit your money where your big mouth is ..they had next to no power before the war because the US prevented crucials parts to rebuild their power plants during the sanctions ..but you'd know if you ever bbothered to read the reams of governm,ent de classified documents I keep shoving down your throat ..but thanks for making it clear you have no intention of EVER examining the facts

Well, its all relative I think. We know improvements are actually occuring over there, but you seem to be one to ignore evidence of this:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/part5.html

yet for some odd reason humanitarian groups have stated that it is a humanitarian disaster ..despite the fact that the red cross has repeatedly say they'll have a humanitarian crisis


oh and try to use reliable sources ....busted

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/reynolds.asp

We can't backtrack. We invaded. Without a good, backed up reason. Okay. We ****ed up. Big time.

oh ffs YOU DIDNT **** UP it wasnt a mistake it was calculated and planned you KNEW saddam didnt have WMD ..I cant believe there are still people out there that literally believe the nonsense bush and his cronies spoon feed you

And yet, now we have to clean up the mess. Restoring power, economy, political system, and security are some of our top priorities now.

rah rah USA USA ..what a ****ing joke ..you did NOTHING to repair the sanitation plants YOU destroyed, you did NOTHING to help the people of iraq when they were dying as a direct cause of US bombing. You calculated what the effects of bombing would be you even calculated the rate of deaths for children under 5 ..and I'm supposed to believe you're there out of humanitarian reasons? your deluded ..to even suggest the US has made a complete about face and is now helping instead of hindering is just plain ludicrous

Its no secret the Insurgents don't want any of those to succeed.

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/09/some-entities-want-iraq-to-fail.html

please no more blogs, blogs are NOT sources

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/22/iraq/main703441.shtml

Another good read.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-01/2006-01-27-voa50.cfm?CFID=36364073&CFTOKEN=79606074



http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/01/mil-060127-voa04.htm

Everyone knows the Insurgents are hindering progress. Everyone.

Hey! Even CBS knows!

really? no shit sherlock ...I fail to see what this has to do with the invasion of iraq

Yea but c'mon. We arrived there, without good pretenses, without a good reason, and its just one of things we can do to help the country out.

"we're sorry we bombed the crap out of you and destroyed your country, we didnt mean it ..oh sure we lied but who ****ing cares?, we're helping arent we?"

The Administration learned a hard lesson. They don't know everything

holy **** how can you see so ****ing blind IT WAS PLANNED IT WASNT A MISTAKE ..the only mistake they made was underestimating the insurgency

but I do know that they care for the people over there, otherwise, why would we try to help them?

you cant possibly be serious ..so you're saying that Bush and his cronies must care about the iraqi people because they planned to invade and occupy iraq? they must love the american soldiers because they sent them to an early grave because they wanted to get rid of saddam ...for no real reason. You're a tool to be exploited nothing more nothing less

You need to review your agenda CptStern. Your political to do list is beginning to irk some of us who know full well what good is happening over there.

oh dear god NOOO!! not the irked right wingers who know how much good the US is doing ...despite having lied their way into the country ...let's all sing Stars and Stripes forever ...you're so brainwashed it isnt funny

I've know the intent of the Insurgents all along, and over the past year or so, they've been stealing, kidnapping and murdering security officials just to prepare those mosk bombings.

yes because you've had meetings with their leaders and they told you so

There's videos of this, do a search CptStern. Its time for you to learn that we're not there to murder civilians.

videos of you interviewing insurgent leaders? oh this I gotta see