Civil war ?

Such an old and beautiful building--what a shame! But its been this way for a while now, at least with these groups loathing each other, so the civil war claim might even be a little late. Its absolutely disgraceful and its absolutely unavoidable as long as the Muslim community in the Middle East insists on tearing each other apart. Probably would have happened sooner or later anyway, US-instigated war or not. This is the perfect example why al Queda and anyone else with a wish to see a strong united Muslim caliphate again is just deluding themself.
 
saddam kept the religious groups in check ..he was the only secular government in the region
 
Christ, Well.. ultimately Iraq has been ****ed in the ass over oil, so I dont think Bush and Blair really thought it through properly, in the memo's they both are quoted to of agreed that starting the war wouldnt cause social friction. The situation just seems to be deteriorating to quite the opposite of their dumbass assumption's.
 
What a bunch of barbarians. This like blowing up the Notre Dame in Paris or the Dom in Florence.
 
Not trying to belittle what has happened but, doesnt the building seem a bit modern? If you look at the pictures of the damage, it looks as though it has metal re-enforncements running through it. Thats something that is pretty modern in terms of building techniques(the dome was finished in 1906 apparently).
Given the location and signifcance of the shrine I would have thought it would be a couple of hundred years old at least.
 
Solaris said:
The Americans Did It.
C. 1537
Click to expand...

;(

You 'spelt' my name wrong.

edit: btw, empty your pm box.
 
CptStern said:
saddam kept the religious groups in check ..he was the only secular government in the region
Click to expand...
All the more reason to hate him if you are Shi'a or Sunni. He feared these groups so much that he used extremely draconian practices to keep them in check as we all know. It would have only been a matter of time before the fundamentalist groups in the area, be they governments or terrorist organizations, started causing major damage to Saddam's vision of the Iraq, the leader of the United Arab World.

That said, a power struggle (like they have now) doesn't make things any easier or better--it just makes them murkier and harder to clean-up. :(
 
Anybody else find it ironic that Iraq's grand Shia cleric calls for a week of mourning, not for the thousands dead, but for a building?

Admittedly, it's a beautiful and holy shrine. Still, to me, all the seven wonders of the world are worth shit compared to human life.
 
Yup.
Im starting to think most terrorist/insurgent(ok solaris -> freedom fighters lol) are making bombing runs to destabalise the coalition government, out of future plans of: shi-suni (<-did i spell that correctly :p)power struggle, rather then "Americans are occupiers". As it doesnt make sense, the power has been transferred and the coalition starting to leave..
Perhaps they're planning the civil war now, so when the coalition leaves they can go at it and overthrow this government and go ahead and create a second Iran.

In that case, lets bring Saddam back... :p
 
IMO, the whole region is ****ed. If the coalition pulls out now, this sort of sectarian violence will only grow worse. If the coalition waits until the Iraqi parliament is on its feet and functioning then the Iraqi people will vote an Islamic theocracy similar to that seen in Iran into power - we've already seen it happen in the elections held so far.
 
you should be beaten to a pulp, dressed up as cher, bound and gagged and sent to mexico so that blind mexican kids can have a pinata to play with


/fantasy :E
 
We need to conquest, no more of the pretense of liberation. Just like forcing a kid to take their medicine.


Or alternatively, we could do naval and land blockade the entire region.

EDIT: I'm just saying that the region seems hopeless.
 
Or we could withdraw and see what happens.
 
And then 30 years down the road your grandchildren Solaris will ask you:
"why didnt you guys protect the Shiites, or sunites, why did you allow this civil war to ignite and claim so many lives"
Im not saying it will happen, but its not looking all to good.
If it will, i pray the western world will act, and prevent another Rwanda (which btw was totally ignored by the west...)
 
Yes, lets pull out now, when the main cities in Iraq still dont have 100% power, when none of the hospitals are fully supplied and equipped, and leave the myraid of terrorist organization in a power hungery soup. Yes, lets leave, cause then America and the world will be wronging a right. Hey cause you know, there aren't any religious tensions that are overflowing into violence today right?
 
but why isnt there power in all of iraq? why is 100% of the population on rations? why are there no medical supplies? why do doctors have to perform emergency surgery on patients by candle light? Iraq went from the highest mortality rate i the region to the lowest ..why did that have to happen? why doesnt someone hold those responsible for this accountable? americans have given bush and his cronies the ultimate gift ..unyeilding fealty and a carte blanche to do whatever they please no matter what the consequences are. They blatently lied and set up the invasion from the get go yet americans dont seem to care
 
OK OK, Yes I admit, the US has fudged up, a lot, on a lot of things in Iraq. You wont have an agruement there. Yes, Im agreeing with you. But you have to admit, just dropping all our stuff now and leaving wont make the situation better. We have two, well armed factions, Sunnis ands Shite's, that for some reason or another, think the other should be killed off. That is not a mood conductive to democracy, or to stability.

for the war:
1. Needed about 2 million for occupation, thats .8 million more than our combined standing forces, sadly.

2. Needed quick repairs for infrastructure. A populace with clean water is a happy populace.

3. Needed to clamp down on these extremists earilier. We really went in with kids gloves ON THE FIELD, what happened in abu-grahib didnt matter, becuase that did not affect those terrorists that were still milling about.
 
iraqis have been without clean water and sanitary conditions since 1991 when the US bombed their water treatment plants ..during the sanctions the US went out of their way to deny them parts to rebuild their water treatment plants ..few if any work in reconstructing the plants has gone forward since the invasion


oh and I get tired of this ..it wasnt a fcuk up ..it was planned from the very beginning ..the only "fcuk up" was that they underestimated the destabilizing affect the invasion had ..the Bush admin truely believed they'd secure iraq in as little as a month

this wasnt a mistake, it was a cold calculated move
 
CptStern said:
americans have given bush and his cronies the ultimate gift ..unyeilding fealty and a carte blanche to do whatever they please no matter what the consequences are.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I don't see the rest of the world doing much to stop it either (but they certainly complain about it enough). And remember, we shouldn't even be having this discussion because Americans didn't give him anything--he lost in 2000!!!
CptStern said:
They blatently lied and set up the invasion from the get go yet americans dont seem to care
Click to expand...
Yes, they sure did, but their plan is much more complicated and different than people think too, which will be the subject of another thread. :)

And (Virtually) nobody in the media is calling loudly for impeachment which I will never unsderstand! Impeachment for lying about a blowjob makes sense, but impeachment for lying about going to war? No way! Are you f'ing kidding me???

Americans care that their country has been raked through the mud by the current administration, but we won't see how much they care until the next election(s).
 
VictimOfScience said:
Yeah, but I don't see the rest of the world doing much to stop it either (but they certainly complain about it enough). And remember, we shouldn't even be having this discussion because Americans didn't give him anything--he lost in 2000!!!
Click to expand...

yes but they voted him in again ..despite the fact that he clearly lied from the very beginning. The majority of voters didnt seem to care that they voted for someone who thrust their nature into an illegal war ...and that's a little silly to say that no country is putting a stop to the US ..he has most of the western world on their side (not public but governments). What exactly do you propose we do? invade? put sanctions on the US? ..but the world is doing something about US imperialism, one by one they're refusing to play ball ..and soon enough the US wont have anyone to turn to

VictimOfScience said:
Yes, they sure did, but their plan is much more complicated and different than people think too, which will be the subject of another thread. :)
Click to expand...

I'm so sure about that ..sure it's been a long time brewing (the neo-cons have been making noise about invading iraq since 1998 ..at least publically) ..but they clearly hadnt done their homework because they completely did an about face in less than 2 months ..from this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6456.htm

to this

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml

VictimOfScience said:
And (Virtually) nobody in the media is calling loudly for impeachment which I will never unsderstand! Impeachment for lying about a blowjob makes sense, but impeachment for lying about going to war? No way! Are you f'ing kidding me???
Click to expand...

because unlike the democrats the republicans worked together to get anything to stick to clinton ..the downingstreetmemos is enough to impeach bush but american media and the public have completely ignored it

VictimOfScience said:
Americans care that their country has been raked through the mud by the current administration, but we won't see how much they care until the next election(s).
Click to expand...

it matters little ..they know a neo-con wont win the next election but that hardly matters they've already put people in key positions of power that will ensure they have control no matter who comes aboard ..bush is a figurehead he is NOT the man in charge ..Ari Fleischer was the architect of the invasion of iraq not bush
 
Thats because Bush's PR people are the best around. Not only that, he had the highest budget ever!
His PR people succesfully attacked Kerry ( who was a schmuck anyways ), to put him as "flip flopper" and "liar for his purple hearts".
The Bush image was "hey man, Iraq was tough and perhaps not very great but at least im a ferm leader and dont flip-flop".

Best quote ever (some other guy on another forum posted) was:
"You Americans want a president that never changes opinion? That is strong and stubbern even if he lied and ****ed up? Is that important to you? Then i present you your next and most ideal president -> [picture of Adolf]"
hehe, it was hilarious and so true. (ps this was in the middle of the heat of election 2 )...
Bush's PR ppl did an excellent job in fooling the nation, deluting the facts and "undo" what was said earlier (the lying).

Kyoto was also one of the top 10 bush ****ups. Now we all produce extremely expensive to reduce polution, while the Nr1 poluter jacked the treaty and continues to polute.

But anyways, on topic: I hope Iraq is spared from Genocide... And if it starts no matter what ppl say we have to act. I dont want future generations looking down on us just like with Rwanda.
 
I thought bush' campaign was a disaster, he came across as a incoherent mess who didnt understand the issues at hand ..seriously he really sounded less than smart ..it says more about kerry's campaign than bush's that he didnt win
 
CptStern said:
yes but they voted him in again ..despite the fact that he clearly lied from the very beginning. The majority of voters didnt seem to care that they voted for someone who thrust their nature into an illegal war ...and that's a little silly to say that no country is putting a stop to the US ..he has most of the western world on their side (not public but governments). What exactly do you propose we do? invade? put sanctions on the US? ..but the world is doing something about US imperialism, one by one they're refusing to play ball ..and soon enough the US wont have anyone to turn to
Click to expand...
Again, barely the majority of voters voted him in. If it weren't for his religious stance (or rather how he played it up to the evangelicals), he wouldn't have won at all and things might be very different around the globe. But in any case, there really is nothing to do about the US and their actions right now. The further away we get from 9/11/01, the less we can use it as an excuse to attacks others wherever they may be. People are realizing that, but Muslims must also realize that the radical elements in their fold are making things that much easier to build a case against any Islamic regime that may or may not be harbouring terrorists or WMDs. Many people (and governemnts) in the world are more terrified of radical fundamentalists in their country than US foreign policy. The US won't have a shortage of allies in the future I don't think (until China buys us out).

CptStern said:
I'm so sure about that ..sure it's been a long time brewing (the neo-cons have been making noise about invading iraq since 1998 ..at least publically) ..but they clearly hadnt done their homework because they completely did an about face in less than 2 months ..from this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6456.htm

to this

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml
Click to expand...
This isn't even close to what I was referring to. The game that is played in the public eye is totally different from the game played behind the scenes. We'll get to all that on my thread when I get around to writing it all down. I am sure you'll be interested in it. :naughty:

CptStern said:
because unlike the democrats the republicans worked together to get anything to stick to clinton ..the downingstreetmemos is enough to impeach bush but american media and the public have completely ignored it
Click to expand...
So where is the liberal media when you need them??? Why are they sitting on their asses and not using the facts to present a case to the powers that be and the rest of the American Public? Dunno. Real dumb though...real dumb.

CptStern said:
it matters little ..they know a neo-con wont win the next election but that hardly matters they've already put people in key positions of power that will ensure they have control no matter who comes aboard ..bush is a figurehead he is NOT the man in charge ..
Click to expand...
We know this. He is a puppet, just like most presidents before him...only moreso. The real problem is that the Democrats can't get it together. They have yet to offer any sort of content to the people beyond a critique of the current administration. Fine. We all know the current situation stinks, but what are YOU (the Democrats) going to do about it? There isn't an answer there yet and until there is a clear alternative to the Republican plans, things will likely stay the same.

That said, here is a look at a number of polls from non-partisan sources showing overwhelmingly that people would prefer it if the Democrats won control of Congress in the elections later this year. That is certainly a step in the right direction. We have to keep up that momentum for another couple of years...ugh.

CptStern said:
Ari Fleischer was the architect of the invasion of iraq not bush
Click to expand...
Sure, he may have planned the actual invasion, but he wasn't the brains as to why we were invading.

CptStern said:
I thought bush' campaign was a disaster, he came across as a incoherent mess who didnt understand the issues at hand ..seriously he really sounded less than smart ..it says more about kerry's campaign than bush's that he didnt win
Click to expand...
Hahaha! My thoughts exactly! How bad do you have to be to lose to that guy??? Poor Kerry (not literally of course $:naughty:$).
 
I think its funny half of you get all riled up and sit on your high chairs, handing out the most immediate forms of blame to a "Shia conspiracy" or to the Coalition Governments.

Videos are being posted on the Internet to most Insurgent elitist groups and several have arrived on some top gore-blood sites. The attacks are being perpetrated by Al-Qaeda in Iraq by Abu Masab Al-Zarqwai. He feels that a civil war between the Shia's and Sunni's might weaken the Coalition presence, and he's trying to knock several Religious groups out of power.

He's dissappeared quietly enough -- ... well, now he's reared his ugly head again. Do some video searches, I can't post gore sites anymore. But it is him, and along with those videos, one statement has emerged that won't be in the media for quiet sometime.
 
VictimOfScience said:
Again, barely the majority of voters voted him in. If it weren't for his religious stance (or rather how he played it up to the evangelicals), he wouldn't have won at all and things might be very different around the globe. But in any case, there really is nothing to do about the US and their actions right now. The further away we get from 9/11/01, the less we can use it as an excuse to attacks others wherever they may be. People are realizing that, but Muslims must also realize that the radical elements in their fold are making things that much easier to build a case against any Islamic regime that may or may not be harbouring terrorists or WMDs. Many people (and governemnts) in the world are more terrified of radical fundamentalists in their country than US foreign policy. The US won't have a shortage of allies in the future I don't think (until China buys us out).
Click to expand...

yes but when it comes to supporting a US agenda in the international scene nations will be weary of dealing with them for fear of being burned ..oh and bush received a larger percentage of voters than his first time around ..and privastely I too believe he won because of the rider bills against same sex marriage and the fear put into christians in general ..but it's not something I say publically for fear of being attacked by christians for "over generalizing"

oh and I dont think americans have learned from iraq ..I'm willing to bet should the US make noise about invading iran/syria etc the majority of americans would support it


VictimOfScience said:
This isn't even close to what I was referring to. The game that is played in the public eye is totally different from the game played behind the scenes. We'll get to all that on my thread when I get around to writing it all down. I am sure you'll be interested in it. :naughty:
Click to expand...

yes I realize that, I've been reading declassified documents for years now ..here

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/


VictimOfScience said:
So where is the liberal media when you need them??? Why are they sitting on their asses and not using the facts to present a case to the powers that be and the rest of the American Public? Dunno. Real dumb though...real dumb.
Click to expand...

there is no such thing as liberal media in the US ..at least not mainstream media ..the NY times and Washington post BOTH apologized for overstating the build up to the war in iraq ...basically they all have fudiciary responsibilities to their shareholders and as a result were more than happy to self censor when it came to reporting on iraq


VictimOfScience said:
We know this. He is a puppet, just like most presidents before him...only moreso. The real problem is that the Democrats can't get it together. They have yet to offer any sort of content to the people beyond a critique of the current administration. Fine. We all know the current situation stinks, but what are YOU (the Democrats) going to do about it? There isn't an answer there yet and until there is a clear alternative to the Republican plans, things will likely stay the same
Click to expand...

I dont think it'd be any different had the democrats won ...I mean the US bombed kosovo during clinton's watch killing hundreds of civilians ..the US under clinton bombed sites inspected by weapons inspectors soon after their visit in iraq. Carters administration was behind bloody coups in niceragua, el salvador etc. Kennedy had Bolivia, Operation Chaos, Uruguay, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, the Congo, Ecuador, Dominican Republic and the Bay of pigs ..it's foreign policy really hasnt changed that much from president to president

.

VictimOfScience said:
That said, here is a look at a number of polls from non-partisan sources showing overwhelmingly that people would prefer it if the Democrats won control of Congress in the elections later this year. That is certainly a step in the right direction. We have to keep up that momentum for another couple of years...ugh.
Click to expand...

yes but it may be too little too late


VictimOfScience said:
Sure, he may have planned the actual invasion, but he wasn't the brains as to why we were invading.
Click to expand...

yes but bush wasnt either ..PNAC laid out bush's plan for invasion before bush took office


this document details their plan for global dominance

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
 
CptStern said:
I thought bush' campaign was a disaster, he came across as a incoherent mess who didnt understand the issues at hand ..seriously he really sounded less than smart ..it says more about kerry's campaign than bush's that he didnt win
Click to expand...

Could Bush at all sound smart? Bush's campaign was a succes not because Bush sounded good or better, but because his PR ppl were able to make Kerry sound worse.
From all the Americans i've met who voted for Bush, they all say Bush is a schmuck but Kerry would have been worse..

Making the opponent look worse than you are apparantly works in the states..
 
bush won because he had so frightened people that they were willing to give up their freedoms just so long as they're safe ..all bush really has to do is say

"see, the war on terror is successful, there havent been any attacks on american soil since 9/11" ...and people lap it up as if it's $200/gram russian caviaar
 
Stern, I did'nt vote because I was frightened. 53 million other people opposed him by voting Democratically, which shows they were'nt afraid either.

Were not afraid of him, were afraid of terrorists. ;D

"see, the war on terror is successful, there havent been any attacks on american soil since 9/11" ...and people lap it up as if it's $200/gram russian caviaar
Click to expand...

How, would you counter this Rhetoric? What terrorists attacks have their been that destroy the truth in this?
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Stern, I did'nt vote because I was frightened. 53 million other people opposed him by voting Democratically, which shows they were'nt afraid either.

Were not afraid of him, were afraid of terrorists. ;D



How, would you counter this Rhetoric? What terrorists attacks have their been that destroy the truth in this?
Click to expand...


Good point. I think people like Stern want to attack America and Americans (verbally) any way they can, and this is the best example.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Stern, I did'nt vote because I was frightened. 53 million other people opposed him by voting Democratically, which shows they were'nt afraid either.

Were not afraid of him, were afraid of terrorists. ;D
Click to expand...

:upstare: you should be more afraid of real threats over imaginary ones



K e r b e r o s said:
How, would you counter this Rhetoric? What terrorists attacks have their been that destroy the truth in this?
Click to expand...

once again you somehow managed to miss my point ...it's the wording + timing = fear which leads to support

Some_God said:
Good point. I think people like Stern want to attack America and Americans (verbally) any way they can, and this is the best example.
Click to expand...


yes god forbid someone question the motivations of your government because people like you are unwilling to do it

it just utterly confounds me that people see the need to shoot the messanger and ignore the message ...tell me, does it sit well that your president orchestrated an invasion that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people? ...or would you rather just spend your time trying to dismiss what everyone else can plainly see
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Stern, I did'nt vote because I was frightened. 53 million other people opposed him by voting Democratically, which shows they were'nt afraid either.

Were not afraid of him, were afraid of terrorists. ;D

How, would you counter this Rhetoric? What terrorists attacks have their been that destroy the truth in this?
Click to expand...

Exactly, and Bush manufactors a terrorist threat, keeps you scared, and you all run to him to take away your freedoms so he can protect you.

And whats your last statement about? Your not making much sense.
 
you should be more afraid of real threats over imaginary ones
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree with you. Thats why I'm not afraid of imagined Orwellian Governments being led by the Christian Right.

But thats also why I'm afraid of a much more materialistic threat. One, that kills and kills without logic or moral. See, terrorism.

wording + timing = fear which leads to support
Click to expand...

And tell me, what wording and timing are you using to generate a fear of your own on the forums? You've tried doubley hard to get us all afraid of Orwellian Conspiracies and Black Plots. While I don't deny their existence, all they exist to be are Modern Fables, and nothing more.

yes god forbid someone question the motivations of your government because people like you are unwilling to do it
Click to expand...

I don't think it entirely responsible for you to generalize over me that quickly. But then again, you were'nt always that responsible.

...tell me, does it sit well that your president orchestrated an invasion that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people?
Click to expand...

Such a pointed question, yet it invites no response from me given my past knowledge of debates with you over the Iraqi death toll. The Medical Journal which you religious cite has done numerous fables and this is just one of its attempts to gain more readers and social popularity.

Its a medical science journal, you don't think they've studied the science of feigned empathy and point taking?

Exactly, and Bush manufactors a terrorist threat, keeps you scared, and you all run to him to take away your freedoms so he can protect you.
Click to expand...

Manufactors? I don't quiet get what your saying Solaris. Your the one not making much sense.

My suggestion to you, is to ask questions that beg appropriate answers. Such pointed generalizations, and the expectation that I owe you the responsibility to answer traps in a debate will not welcome what I want to share with you.

Be more open, and less cold and calculated. I think I might understand you better then.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Oh, I agree with you. Thats why I'm not afraid of imagined Orwellian Governments being led by the Christian Right.
Click to expand...

:upstare: I doubt even you understood that

K e r b e r o s said:
But thats also why I'm afraid of a much more materialistic threat. One, that kills and kills without logic or moral. See, terrorism.
Click to expand...

oh you mean like how thousands of people died for nothing more than lies ...terrorism you'll condemn but state terrorism that beyond your scope of understanding



K e r b e r o s said:
And tell me, what wording and timing are you using to generate a fear of your own on the forums? You've tried doubley hard to get us all afraid of Orwellian Conspiracies and Black Plots. While I don't deny their existence, all they exist to be are Modern Fables, and nothing more.
Click to expand...

my cat's breath smells like catfood

seriously that's about as much sense as your statement made



K e r b e r o s said:
I don't think it entirely responsible for you to generalize over me that quickly. But then again, you were'nt always that responsible.
Click to expand...

is english your second language, because I can forgive that ..but man what the hell are you talking about?

"the river flows eastward during the western equinox but only during the month of may in the gregorian calander"



K e r b e r o s said:
Such a pointed question, yet it invites no response from me given my past knowledge of debates with you over the Iraqi death toll. The Medical Journal which you religious cite has done numerous fables and this is just one of its attempts to gain more readers and social popularity.
Click to expand...

yup medical journals telling fables, even though they're based on field studies :upstare:

here's a bunch of fables you so conviently ignore:

Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.

Dick Cheney August 26, 2002


Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.

George W. Bush September 12, 2002


We know for a fact that there are weapons there.

Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003


Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.

George W. Bush January 28, 2003


We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.

George Bush February 8, 2003


We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad.

Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003




K e r b e r o s said:
Its a medical science journal, you don't think they've studied the science of feigned empathy and point taking?
Click to expand...

ya that must be it ..brilliant kerberos doesnt refute the evidence he accuses them of feigned empathy and .....point taking? (who knew?)

:upstare:
 
unfortunatly my country is "next on the list" of Al Qaeda.
However, nobodies running after maniacs here, although everybody is w8ting for the "boom" to occur.

Sure Bush made ppl afraid, but his PR ppl made his opponent look so bad and unable to protect and do whats right for the US, that ppl voted the "lesser of 2 evils" ( at leas they thought ).

I'd say New York was right when they voted for Kerry with the : "anybody but bush" statement..
 
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