CS gameplay favor T's?

[Winbacker]

(I haven't had time to follow forum activity so I'm not sure if this topic has been covered before.)

That mentioned, as an ardent CT fan, I have always believed the following. As the DE (bomb site) maps and CS (hostage-rescue)maps are used the most of all types of maps, it is my impression that CS gameplay is inherently favoring the terrorists.

. In my opinion, it is generally easier to play defensively (as in to camp, and wait for the opposing team) than offensively (as in to launch assaults on defended positions with enemies that their bearings and have set-up defensively).


Planting a bomb and successfully defending it until it detonates is much easier than sucessfully rescuing hostages. This is because planting a bomb only requires you to take the offensive once, and then play defensively until detonation. On the other hand, rescuing hostages requires you to take the offensive, often, in 2 different situations. First you must penetrate terrorist defenses to get the hostages, and then you must overcome any terrorist defenses between you, your hostages and the hostage rescue zone. AND DONT get me STARTED on how the poor Artificial intelligence of the hosties make it brutal to rescue them. They're LOUD, they can't Walk, they get stuck, they stare at walls instead of following you, they give your position away, ugh! Anyways....moving on...(shudders), Heck, how would you Ts like it if you were under fire and trying to plant the bomb, when all of a sudden, you drop it, or it starts running away from you? How'd you like that? HmM?

In short, cts are more often required to take the offensive role, which is the more difficult role.

Other things worth mentioning, that skewer gameplay in favor of Ts:

1)I believe both Ts and CTs can see the hostages on their radar screens, whereas ONLY Ts can see the location of a dropped bomb on their radar screens. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Even on bomb maps, when CTs are on defensive, CTs have to protect 2 places at the same time!! When Ts are on defensive, they only have to defend ONE PLACE! HELLO!

2) CTs face an average 30 to 40 second window to successfully take out T opposition or and defuse bomb once planted. Ts never face such a small time frame.

3) I believe that the "plant the bomb" mentality, and seeing the red bomb carrier on the radar screen, creates a sort of psychological impetus that influences Ts to stick together. (Seeing as they ALREADY have the package). More often then not, a unified team traveling together and checking all its corners will prevail over a scattered team.

CTs will be more likely to stick together once they HAVE the hosties, but CTs, must get to them first, thus they start with less incentive to stay together. The impetus for Cts to stick together on CS maps is weak in comparison (especially in brutal maps for cts such as italy and compound). Often the Cts must decide just on how they will stay alive, in these maps. (But that's a just a bitter CT vet talking).

The AK-47 rivals the Colt superbly, and is arguably one of the best guns in the game, and yet is considerably cheaper for Ts to buy. Cts must have more money to buy Colt.


Anyway, In conclusion to this well thought out essay, CS gameplay is inherently favoring T side.

Solutions? Feedback, gimme the downlo on your thoughts.

W!N

 

[beam]

You raise some good points, I think the reason that CT's are always on the offensive is because thats what counter-terrorism is, it's all about breaching and eliminating resistance. Some maps naturally favor T's and some favor CT's, though the majority seem to favor T's only if they work as a team....if you ever played aztec with a bunch of idiots on T then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

A map like de_dust for instance favors ct, if they do it right. (example) half the ct's rush to A throwing a few nades in the tunnels and wait for the weakened T's to expose themselves and slowly pick em' off......the rest of the CT's grab a couple of scopes and watch underpass, if they're good T's will rarely be able to break through. However de_dust2 favors T's simply because the layout of the map offers more routes and the CT's just can't watch them all. If the T's rush together they can easily overcome the CT's defenses.

cs_compound is a decent map but it favors T's way too much, if they added a tunnel it would make a big difference for the ct's. 3 ways of attack just aren't enough, especially when it is so easy for the T's to keep thier distance.

$0.02

 

[Kebean PFC]

Real life favors Ts too. But that is not my point.

Yes Ts do have the adv. on most maps, but on MOST of the de_ maps if the CTs stay around in thier spawn area they can win by waiting for the bomb to be planted, then running to the site they wern't at. cs_compound is a b*tch for the CTs to win, even against a crappy T team. The hosties are a long way (over open terrain) from the recue point and the Ts can camp in the hostie room (the dark corner) and it is hard to resue the hosties.

I played a while ago, and we could not win becuase there was a T who would camp the Hossies with an M249 (the only MG in CS) and he would spray the door when we tried to get in. What we ended up doing was i bought a Scout and killed them all, and all my teammates bought MGs and they sprayed the hell out of the building and the door. Dont think there was a pixel left without a bullet hole in it . But that guy survived to take 3 of us out when we tried for the hosties (he had 80 health left ) and the last CT got him.

Then he just did the same thing round after round, and pretty soon every CT left... just a pain in the ass that one guy can ruin the whole game for multiple people.

 

[jmjneary]

but cts have the m4 and aug and in de maps just kill the guy with the bomb and camp it

 

[QuasiQubit]

In cs_compound if a T is camping the hostage shed, just hop on the roof and take him out from there.

 

[Exclamatio]

if it was as unballanced as u say it would have changed long ago

 

[ignot]

I think it's pretty balanced, if anything tips the scales it's the map design.
You talk about how much harder it is to rescue hostages than it is to plant and camp a bomb because the CT's only get 30-40 seconds to win the round. How long does it take to run from one end of a map to the other? about the same or less i'd say, plus the CT's are a mobile target. You know exactly where those bomb camping T's are.

Planting a bomb and successfully defending it until it detonates is much easier than sucessfully rescuing hostages. This is because planting a bomb only requires you to take the offensive once, and then play defensively until detonation. On the other hand, rescuing hostages requires you to take the offensive, often, in 2 different situations. First you must penetrate terrorist defenses to get the hostages, and then you must overcome any terrorist defenses between you, your hostages and the hostage rescue zone.

Here is a slightly re-worded version:

Rescuing a hostage and successfully defending till extraction is much easier than sucessfully planting the bomb. This is because rescuing a hostage only requires you to take the offensive once, and then play defensively until extraction. On the other hand, planting bombs requires you to take the offensive, often, in 2 different situations. First you must penetrate CT defenses to get the bombsite, and then you must overcome any CT defences between you, your C4 and the big boom.

If you believe it is unbalanced then you will see it as unbalanced, and delete any information that doesn't support that belief unconciously. I'm not trying to be an arse here, but the above statement can be made to work for either team, depending on your point of view.

Anyway, personally I think the whole comparison of attacking and defending advantages is moot; how often does it apply on the publics? The vast majority of the time, most players, regardless of team will sprint to the centre of the map, knife in hand at the round start.
Attacking/Defending rarely comes into the equation on CS, getting more kills so you can put yourself on a pedestal over other players does.

 

[Uni-Ball]

cs maps, ts have advantage (obviously), de maps CTs have advantage

 

[Kalasri]

Ur point of view is wrong ignot Defending = camping
Camping is easier and stiking ur head out
The CT's have to stik their head out while rescuin hosties and while returnin them while the T's can camp with hosties or camp at rescue zone, besides if the CT dies the round is over.
In De ONLY the T's have bomb on radar which is bs for even real life.
The T's just use a "plant n camp" method which does not use any risk and they just pick off the CT's as they come to defuse bomb.
And Compound is just fkin bullshittingly favoring the T's in the sniper way and the hostie room camp way AND the camp next to the entry point way.

 

[beam]

Anyway, personally I think the whole comparison of attacking and defending advantages is moot; how often does it apply on the publics? The vast majority of the time, most players, regardless of team will sprint to the centre of the map, knife in hand at the round start.
Attacking/Defending rarely comes into the equation on CS, getting more kills so you can put yourself on a pedestal over other players does.

Agreed, if you can rack up the kills who cares what team has the advantage. Now if I could only have a good game without taking abuse from the admins

 

[Winbacker]

Here is a slightly re-worded version:

Rescuing a hostage and successfully defending till extraction is much easier than sucessfully planting the bomb. This is because rescuing a hostage only requires you to take the offensive once, and then play defensively until extraction. On the other hand, planting bombs requires you to take the offensive, often, in 2 different situations. First you must penetrate CT defenses to get the bombsite, and then you must overcome any CT defences between you, your C4 and the big boom.
.

This is flawed twofold.
1) You cannot say that rescuing a hostage only requires 1 assault and then "play defensively until extraction." You cannot play defensively until extraction, because the act of extracting requires you to get to a point on the map, where you are not. And that point is often guarded by T's who survived the first CT attack.

2)You say "First you must penetrate ct defenses to get to the bomb site, and then you must overcome any ct defenses between you, your c4 and the big boom"
There are no ct defenses between you and the bomb, because you have it at the beginning of the round. It's served on a silver platter.

Second, "any ct defenses between you and the big boom" is the same "thing as ct defenses to get to the bomb site". CTs must defend two bombsites simultaneously, and once bomb is planted at either, CTs have to take offensive, and T's get to camp. And now, if the bomb kills you, you don't hurt your score, so T's have incentive to stay even longer near bomb, making it even harder for CTs.

And there are no ct defenses between you and the big boom. YOU (at T) is a defense in between CT's and the Big Boom they are trying to stop.

Period!

 

[ignot]

Ur point of view is wrong ignot Defending = camping
Camping is easier and stiking ur head out
The CT's have to stik their head out while rescuin hosties and while returnin them while the T's can camp with hosties or camp at rescue zone, besides if the CT dies the round is over.
In De ONLY the T's have bomb on radar which is bs for even real life.
The T's just use a "plant n camp" method which does not use any risk and they just pick off the CT's as they come to defuse bomb.
And Compound is just fkin bullshittingly favoring the T's in the sniper way and the hostie room camp way AND the camp next to the entry point way.

A point of view is just that; a point of view, it cannot be right or wrong, only agreed or disagreed with. Or should we all just accept that the way you see the world is how it really is and thats that?

I don't agree that camping=defending at all. Sure there is a fair bit of crossover but I see a real difference in sticking near hostages/bombsites for the sake of attempting to win the round over camping behind a crate/door/in a corner for a whole round hoping for an easy kill.

Yes, the CT's have to stick their heads out to get to the hostages. So do the Terrorists when they want to hit a bomb site. I fail to see what point you are making there.
Yes the Terrorists use the 'plant and camp' tactic (What else are they gonna do?), but can you honestly say you've never been killed as a T whilst doing that, or as a CT you've never cleared the zone and diffused the bomb? Seems to me if the CT team has communication between them it's more than do-able, I know I have many times, probably about as many times as I have failed to do it. Besides, the CT team gets diffuse kits, I don't see any caltrops or similar to help the Terrorists on CS maps.

This is flawed twofold.
1) You cannot say that rescuing a hostage only requires 1 assault and then "play defensively until extraction." You cannot play defensively until extraction, because the act of extracting requires you to get to a point on the map, where you are not. And that point is often guarded by T's who survived the first CT attack.

2)You say "First you must penetrate ct defenses to get to the bomb site, and then you must overcome any ct defenses between you, your c4 and the big boom"
There are no ct defenses between you and the bomb, because you have it at the beginning of the round. It's served on a silver platter.

Second, "any ct defenses between you and the big boom" is the same "thing as ct defenses to get to the bomb site". CTs must defend two bombsites simultaneously, and once bomb is planted at either, CTs have to take offensive, and T's get to camp. And now, if the bomb kills you, you don't hurt your score, so T's have incentive to stay even longer near bomb, making it even harder for CTs.

And there are no ct defenses between you and the big boom. YOU (at T) is a defense in between CT's and the Big Boom they are trying to stop.

Period!

1) I can as long as you can say planting the bomb only requires one assault. You cannot play defensively whilst extracting? So your entire team goes in to rescuse the hossies then, there is nobody not in the hostage rooms able to defend the routes back? There are never any CT's back at spawn whilst the hossies are being grabbed? wow, you guys stick together real close, watch out for those nades.

2)No, but there there are plenty of CT's between you and the bomb site, and plenty more when that badboy starts ticking. I thought that was clear and obvious, i'll try harder to express my meaning next time. I Don't see where you get the impression that I said there were CT's between you and the bomb at the start of the round, you must have paraphrased that in your head and made a mistake. Terrorists start with the bomb, we are in full agreement there.

Second part. Again I have to disagree. There are usually CT's at the bomb sites that need taking out before you can plant, and CT's that come to diffuse after you plant, making the statement valid.
CT's don't have to defend two sites simultaneously, the T's can only ever plant one bomb so can only ever attack one bombsite. Just because you don't know which site they will choose, doesn't mean you have to defend both at once. It's a choice you have it may seem the most obvious, but it's still just a choice. The same as all camping one site or setting up at map chokepoints. Funnily enough this also happens on CS maps, the Terrorists must choose which routes to defend, or indeed wether to defend at all or just rush it.
I prefer the explosion not to hurt scores, why should one team be penalised for ensuring objectives are carried out whilst the other gets big payouts per hossie?

And there are no ct defenses between you and the big boom. YOU (at T) is a defense in between CT's and the Big Boom they are trying to stop.

The CT's ARE the defences between you and the bomb, that is the whole reason they are there, to stop the bomb going off.
Yes, as a T, you would be the defense to stop the diffusal, but as a CT you would be the defense to stop the bomb going off at all, I fail to see what point you are trying to make there. You could semantically debate over who takes on the role of attack or defense in any given situation either way and still be correct.

 

[blinking halo]

the ts honestly do NOT have the advantage. It depends entirely on the map design. In general however, de maps favor the cts, as they can camp the bomb sites, while cs maps favor the ts who can camp the hostages. Most likely you are complaining here because most people prefer being the terrorists, i myself am a ct fan, and there is nothing wrong with the balance. If there was, it would have been fixed ages ago. Learn the camp spots and you should have no trouble taking out gutless campers.

 

[Blakeb155]

I quite like the way its balanced now. Some maps do favour a side, but its always a challenge to be the underdog.

 

[CADMonkey]

Italy is one of the most one-sided maps. T's have the advantage, and clan matches nearly always end in a tie.

 

[Uni-Ball]

the reason why de maps are so popular is because the ct advantage is very small, so its not a bigdeal. While on cs maps Ts will usually win.

 

[T.H.C.138]

hold on a minute!!! why does my radar not show hosties when I am on the T's?oh wait a minute...that might be considered FAIR...CT sees hosties on radar...T sees bomb on radar..any questions?try playing both teams if you haven't already...and remember sometimes the best strategy is the appearance of none...

 

[SystemShock2]

I thnks they should put 2 windows in the shed in compound, so you could look through them and shoot the camper inside. Since there would be two, he wouldn't be able to keep track of both windows and the door, so you could either be seen, or kill him through the wall. Yeah, t's are gavored though, but ct's have better guns. THe aug is better than the sigg and the five seven, I would say is better than the berettas, and there are other better ct guns.

 

[bliink]

I think it comes down more to the map, rather than the team objectives.

 

[QuasiQubit]

I thnks they should put 2 windows in the shed in compound, so you could look through them and shoot the camper inside. Since there would be two, he wouldn't be able to keep track of both windows and the door, so you could either be seen, or kill him through the wall. Yeah, t's are gavored though, but ct's have better guns. THe aug is better than the sigg and the five seven, I would say is better than the berettas, and there are other better ct guns.

There are already skylights in the shed. You can look through them and shoot the camper inside.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Really? I cant get up there.

 

[Immortal]

It all depends on the map design and how good a team is, i'd say its pretty damn balenced.

 

[CADMonkey]

Really? I cant get up there.

Climb the truck.

A couple of flashbangs in the shed can't hurt either.

 

[JimeH^]

The idea is that you have to protect something, like as a terrorist you protect the bomb after it has been set.
But the problem is getting people to follow orders- like getting a kid to watch a turkey thats roasting.

 

[CADMonkey]

Teamwork rarely comes into play on pub servers. I hate playing on publics. Getting rushed at T spawn on dust2 sucks.

 

[blinking halo]

indeed, try playing in a serious 5v5 match on dust2, then youll see teamwork