**** da University

[Maestro]

I was talking with a friend on IM, and after deliberating...

I just don't want to go to college after high school. I don't want to spend 4 more years on top of my existing 12 cramming useless facts with the occasional nugget of useful information for a degree. If I get into the USAFA, yeah I'll go, but otherwise...

No.

I figure I can get a job on Philmont Conservation Crew and take that experience to get onto other conservation crews during the fall and early winter. From there? Hell if I know but that's a much better feeling than knowing in 5 years I'll be finishing college. I'm sure I'll figure it out then. I've been told since starting middle school to have a 'five-year plan.' Five-year plans can suck a dick. They really can. I'm tired of 'knowing' where I'll be five years from now. That's boring. I want to live my damn life outside a classroom or cubicle.

I feel so much better now. I just physically feel like I am not as burdened. I don't want to spend 4 years getting a degree and then get a job with some big engineering corporation.

I needed to say this somewhere, and Facebook is not the place to announce your plans to not attend college.

 

[kineaesth]

University is the most interesting thing I've ever done with my life. It's nothing like school, and it gives you some incredible opportunities to learn stuff, meet people, and do things. It makes you a better person, really.

Then again I do philosophy and english and anthropology so hahahahaha I'm already just great

But hey sounds like you have a plan, if it's something you want to do I say go for it!

 

[MJ12]

By Sophomore year you'll have forgotten that you are attending a school.

 

[Stigmata]

You should read the course descriptions of some fourth year classes.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Your college experience can vary depending on which you go to but I'd say it'll be what you make of it.

 

[Robbo]

University is the most interesting thing I've ever done with my life. It's nothing like school, and it gives you some incredible opportunities to learn stuff, meet people, and do things. It makes you a better person, really.

I agree. I wouldn't judge Uni based on your experience of school. You can always leave uni if you start and dont like it.

The fact is that when the economy goes through a down turn the people without degrees are usually the first to go. Of course this depends on where you end up.

 

[Qonfused]

I hated my first year and a half of uni. It's all general classes that you have no interest in and the professors have no interest in teaching. But this semester, I love all of my classes. The weekends honestly suck because I'm not in class.

And I'd never thought I see myself saying that.

 

[dfc05]

You should read the course descriptions of some fourth year classes.

If you meant that as a positive thing...
that doesn't quite work for certain majors.

Process Control. Analysis of process dynamics and methods for the design of automatic control systems for chemical process plants.

Process Design and Operations. Process design, economics, and safety; design projects representing a variety of industries and products.

Chemical Engineering Process and Projects Laboratory. Experimental studies of unit operations. Laboratory safety. Statistical data analysis. Written and oral reports. Six laboratory hours a week for one semester.

If you meant it to be a stark warning of potential future misery, then yes, read the course catalog.




Yeah, I kid. Most people enjoy college. Even those being punished for having committed the crime of choosing engineering as their major. I'd recommend it, if only for jobs. Jobs are nice. (says the person doing more time in grad school).

 

[Krynn72]

I disagree with your conclusions Maestro. I disagree very much, and think you will regret it in 15 years.

EDIT: @ dfc: I don't see anything wrong with those. The first one sounds particularly interesting.

 

[15357]

I recommend attending university, even though I'm hating the shit out of it right now.

 

[dfc05]

I disagree with your conclusions Maestro. I disagree very much, and think you will regret it in 15 years.

EDIT: @ dfc: I don't see anything wrong with those. The first one sounds particularly interesting.

The first one was one of the absolute worst classes ever. You learn how to put feedback control on systems. This involves taking the Laplace transform of real variables that mean something (like time, concentration of chemical, etc.) in order to turn them into abstract variables in s-space. Near the beginning of the semester, you will take your s-space expression and inverse-Laplace-transform them back to things that mean something. As time passes, you will no longer bother inverse-Laplace-transforming. Everything is in ****-ing s. Eventually you will end up with large systems. Systems where people cannot be bothered to calculate things out by hand. For class you will still be forced to calculate things by hand, but you will also learn to use a Matlab thing called Simulink. This is what one of my homework problems called for:

Spoiler

This one is not even considered particularly difficult. If you have no idea what is going on there, don't worry -- neither did the majority of the class.

As for process design -- you don't really design anything. You design it theoretically, in a horrible program called Aspen, which you were never actually trained in due to a certain inept professor. Any shred of interest you had in the product you are designing (mine was butanol) quickly morphs into an intense hatred, at least while you are taking the course. Also, pump sizing sucks tremendously. But you learn that there is something out there that sucks even worse than pump sizing --- estimating pump pricing.

As for the last one, I never really had anything against lab courses aside from getting 1 hour of credit for 20 hours of work. But it's still like "let's see which of these pumps works better. let's see how well this mixer mixes things." Eh. Chemistry labs were more fun.


Anyhow, I still agree that college is worth it. Post-undergrad job probably gives people the highest potential pleasure to work ratio. This is just my take on things (feel free to disagree), but I see it like this:

High school degree -- Work hard. Low wages. Minimal benefits.
Bachelor's degree (at least in business/science/engineering) -- Work moderately hard. High wages. Medical insurance. Extra pay for overtime. Vacation time. Ability to gloat on facebook about your trips, taken on paid vacation time, paid for with your high wages.
Master's degree -- Possibly worth it for more specialized jobs. One to two years of school work for higher starting wage.
Graduate student (yes I consider this a job, for poor sadistic fools) -- Work hard. Low wages. No benefits. Paid for 20 hrs/wk but work 60-70 hrs/wk (negative overtime??). No vacation time. Ability to gloat on facebook about how you're given one free bagel on Fridays, and sometimes the week after a department event, they put out leftovers. You don't even know if the leftovers were stored away properly, but hey they're free.
PhD degree -- Either you become a bum, or get a normal job (which you could've done 5 years earlier), or do a post-doc (which is kinda like still being a graduate student).
Post-post-doc -- Some people become eternal post-docs. A few people become professors, where you will work extremely hard, and have the ability to gloat on facebook about how you got grant money, with which you get to buy laboratory equipment.

You choose which of these you want.

 

[Mogi67]

I was talking with a friend on IM, and after deliberating...

I just don't want to go to college after high school. I don't want to spend 4 more years on top of my existing 12 cramming useless facts with the occasional nugget of useful information for a degree. If I get into the USAFA, yeah I'll go, but otherwise...

No.

I figure I can get a job on Philmont Conservation Crew and take that experience to get onto other conservation crews during the fall and early winter. From there? Hell if I know but that's a much better feeling than knowing in 5 years I'll be finishing college. I'm sure I'll figure it out then. I've been told since starting middle school to have a 'five-year plan.' Five-year plans can suck a dick. They really can. I'm tired of 'knowing' where I'll be five years from now. That's boring. I want to live my damn life outside a classroom or cubicle..

Yeah man, being in school for another 5 years or so sounds shitty, but college is NOTHING like high school. You'll have incredible opportunities to try new things, meet new people, take some interesting classes, maybe even study abroad. You'll have more freedom than you'll probably ever have again. The classes are really only a fraction of what you'll be doing. Dude, I wish I could go back to school and I just graduated in May.

 

[15357]

The way I see it, university is just as much a requirement as is high school, middle school, and elementary school.

 

[StarBob]

College is more than just important information, it's a life experience. You'll meet a diverse group of people from all around the world and build a network. You can take classes on things you never thought you'd find interesting. The important part is that you take it all in because it will be the fastest four years of your life.

I guess all I'm saying is, don't look at it like "oh shit more school" because it's a lot more than that.

 

[<RJMC>]

enjoy your job as janitor

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

You dont HAVE to go to a University and live in a cell of a dorm or whatever you know.

There is a such thing as a community college or online courses. This isn't 1950, it's 2010.

The age of a "4 year lockdown university" came to an end quite a while back.

Stay in school, part time. A "half time" college student is just 6 credit hours a week. That's nothing, and you're considered half time. Hell full time is only 12 credit hours a week which is easy enough as well.

Go to a community college until you get your Associates degree (2 yrs), save a grip of money and heartache, and transfer to outsourced/online university courses if you want a bachelors degree.



My advice to you is to work (USAF if you're doing that or another job) AND go to school. You'll come out far ahead of your peers who went to 4 year universities because you'll have experience and that matters to employers. Even if it took you 6 years or so until your bachelors degree due to going half time or part time through a CC you'll still end up ahead of them at the end.



I think based on what you said you'd like better a combo of online college classes and brick and mortar community college classes. It's honestly way better than a university unless you're in a VERY TECHNICAL field where you need the advanced research capabilities/labs, etc.

 

[evil^milk]

I hated my first year and a half of uni. It's all general classes that you have no interest in and the professors have no interest in teaching. But this semester, I love all of my classes. The weekends honestly suck because I'm not in class.

And I'd never thought I see myself saying that.

Which classes are those?

 

[Maestro]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

I don't intend to avoid college forever. I just don't want to go straight to college.

 

[CyberPitz]

High school degree -- Work hard. Low wages. Minimal benefits.


You choose which of these you want.

I only have a High School diploma, and I make more money than most college graduates I know, I sit behind a desk all day and talk on the phone while surfing the internet, and get 4 hours of PTO every 2 weeks. I was even offered a chance to become the network technician for my job.

I've found through life, it's mostly who you know, and a bit of what paper you are holding.

 

[Eejit]

In before repiV.

How useful university is depends entirely on what you want to do afterwards. It's pretty overrated for various random office work/business type jobs, essential for most professions (doctors, vets etc.) with an entire range in between.

 

[Dynasty]

The thing with University, or the US equivalent, I find is 3-4 years (or more) of more studies, more exams (though I only had 2 in 3 years), more coursework and essays etc, but that one certificate you get at the end is something I would rather have at not need, than need and not have.

Its a life experience, it changes you as a person, its life skills, its the best time of your life.

Anyone that says they dont want to go, I have no issue with of course, its your choice. I often wondered, and have spoken out about it in previous long-winded posts in other Uni threads, what good a degree actually gets you these days seeing as almost everyone seems to have one. ''Oh but I went to x Uni and got a 1st hons degree in x field'', ''Thats great. Now shut up and go make the coffee, and if I dont get those reports on my desk by the end of the day, you're fired.''

And thats the reality. Unless you're gunning for something like rocket science or something that actually requires you to have a decent brain, a degree isnt really going to change what job you get. Because lets face it, that little certificate you get at the end of Uni is basically a £10 note slipped into the hands of a potential employer to make them choose you.

So why bother?

Well, Ive thought about it alot, and the same thing always seems to come up in discussions with my family; having a Uni degree removes the roof over your head that is the one thing everyone wants - promotions. With a degree you will put yourself in a position where you can climb higher than someone who doesnt have one. Start out as a simple analyst, and 30 years later you'll be a project director or a board member. Someone without a degree will more than likely not be picked as (apparently) your degree is taken greatly into consideration when you gun for the big positions in the company. Company dependant of course.

On the flip side, skipping Uni and getting that work experience is great. Experience is afterall chosen over your degree in many cases, not always of course, but it certainly puts you in a better position than graduates.

But that depends entirely on the industry you get experience in. Flipping burgers isnt really experience.

And thats another problem, in the UK the average job has 8 applicants going for it. Whether those stats are based on publicly available jobs or internal jobs I dont know, but that means every job you apply for on average will have 7 other applicants trying to sell themselves for it as well.

I for one am SO GLAD I finished Uni when I did, it was around the time of recessions around the world, and Uni fee increases were being considered, more students being rejected of their application etc etc.

Personally I would say go to Uni. If simply to ride out this recession, because when you come out the other end, we should be stable again and jobs should be easier to find.

I know graduates that are still looking for a job a year on after graduating. Its tough right now, and you need every trick up your sleeve that you can get your hands on. And when everyone else is getting degrees, you need to match their game.

Or you could get lucky and not need to go to Uni. It all boils down to what you want from your life. If you're happy earning on average under £30k a year, fine. A Uni degree SHOULD push you much higher. But that higher earnings usually only happens in your 40s and above, unless you're scum and work in a bank, in which case you'll get £50 plus and a £billion in bonuses.

 

[MJ12]

I hated my first year and a half of uni. It's all general classes that you have no interest in and the professors have no interest in teaching. But this semester, I love all of my classes. The weekends honestly suck because I'm not in class.

And I'd never thought I see myself saying that.

Word.

 

[dfc05]

I only have a High School diploma, and I make more money than most college graduates I know, I sit behind a desk all day and talk on the phone while surfing the internet, and get 4 hours of PTO every 2 weeks. I was even offered a chance to become the network technician for my job.

I've found through life, it's mostly who you know, and a bit of what paper you are holding.

Ah man, that sounds like a nice job. The bit about knowing people who can get you in on a job is true. I know a few people who got jobs through friends and relatives. Reminds me of this time I got this random internship at a software company through my sister's friend, doing programming work, the summer between high school and college. I am/was not even in computer science.

Once I was in the bookstore and overheard the owner talking to a customer. Shop owner was like "Yeah my son's a teenager, he just sits around all day" and the other guy made a call on the spot to try hooking this kid up with a job. I don't think these dudes even knew each other well.

I don't know what I'm trying to say. Obviously in general, a college education helps, but some people do get dealt better cards in life than others.

But that higher earnings usually only happens in your 40s and above, unless you're scum and work in a bank, in which case you'll get £50 plus and a £billion in bonuses.

Haha, there was always a sort of rivalry between engineering and business at my school, and I'm pretty sure it boils down to a bitterness over the fact that one major requires more intelligence than the other, yet business people make mega crap tons of money. I knew a girl in business who was the happiest, most charismatic person ever. All I could think was "Holy crap this girl is going to make a ton of money when she gets out of here."

Engineering is not a bad option financially though. I actually had a solid job offer for $65,000 as a chemical engineer to sit around writing air quality permits. It is not a particularly difficult job, and I would've stayed geographically close to all my friends. Paid vacation, Christmas bonuses, sick leave, and so on. But instead I chose $24,000 as a graduate student. Also, I switched majors so that even if I had split after a Masters (which I just got last month), I would still make less than $65. Sometimes I sit and wonder if I made the worst decision ever. Ask myself what long string of mistakes in life I must have made to get here.

So if you really want to not know where you'll be after 5 years... do that.


Oh by the way, if you want to be a really scummy rich bastard -- petroleum engineering. My dad worked for a company where they offered a job to some freshman girl in the major. Like, an actual full-time job. Screw graduating or actually learning anything -- let us give you $90,000/yr.
Petroleum Engineering -- You don't even need a degree; you just need to demonstrate willingness to be a terrible person.

 

[The Monkey]

I love uni, I find the intellectual atmosphere very character building. Plus, students party like none other.

 

[Mogi67]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

I don't intend to avoid college forever. I just don't want to go straight to college.

Just take a year off dude, a lot of people do it

 

[Raziaar]

Just take a year off dude, a lot of people do it

Yeah, do the most cliche thing possible... backpack in Europe for a year.

 

[Stigmata]

And by "backpack in Europe for a year" you mean "blow everything on booze and restaurants in the first two weeks, live in a hostel for another, lose your return ticket, then sell your body no less than four times to buy a flight back to the US", right?

 

[Qonfused]

transfer to outsourced/online university courses if you want a bachelors degree.

Online courses are such a joke. I really can't imagine someone walking into a corporation, handing over their diploma from Phoenix U and not being laughed out the door. Community college is legit, though. It's high school plus, but it makes for a smooth transition into university. My first semester was at a community college and it was an overall positive experience.

Which classes are those?

I'm an elementary ed. major, so most of my classes are finally aimed at that. I'm always having a good time in my classes, lots of laughter and moving around. This switch from lecture halls to small classrooms with tons of group work was a little jarring and I still ask myself "am I learning or am I just playing?" But that question shouldn't be weird, it should be the norm. Anyway, rambling now...

 

[Maestro]

Yeah, do the most cliche thing possible... backpack in Europe for a year.

Or backpack Philmont on Conservation Crew and use the credentials from that to work on other Cons crews through the southwestern states living on a stipend and in the backcountry more often than town. Working at Philmont means I'll add about 2500 to the existing 1700 in the bank, figure in a job during this school year and I'll have close to 5000 or 5500 if I save well. Most Cons crews don't pay, but the ones I was looking at were around 300 a week living stipend, which is plenty for me. I'll spend a maximum of time outside and away from people.

I'd kind of like to try being a ski bum, or something else. Don't know what I'll do in the winter months but it won't be spent at home.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

I don't intend to avoid college forever. I just don't want to go straight to college.

That might work out better in todays work environment if you are employed. Like I said experience speaks volume.

Also make sure you take into account what I said- college does not have to be a university. You sound like you'd thrive and enjoy more education from a city/community college and online courses.

It's the same EXACT credits and degree in the end- just verify the courses/credits towards your degree transfer from school to school and you're set.


Just don't be a ski bum or something like that crap. You need something that you can put on your resume if not doing school. Work experience, internships, and other 'jobs' even if not a 'traditional' job is so, so, so great on there.

 

[Ridge]

College is worthless. Studies have shown that, despite what you are told, a college diploma holder isn't any more likely to make more money in their lifetime than a high school grad.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It's definately not worthless and that depends totally on your field/degree.

It's also a lot easier to get hired and promoted within an organization with a degree. Even if you're smart and super efficient a lot of big companies and corporations are blind to that- they see the degree on paper and thats the candidate they'll choose for promotion, even if in reality a non degreed employee is more competent and a better choice for the job.

 

[Eejit]

College is worthless. Studies have shown that, despite what you are told, a college diploma holder isn't any more likely to make more money in their lifetime than a high school grad.

I thought you said you were a dentist or something. You kinda need to go to uni for that iirc...

 

[15357]

I thought you said you were a dentist or something. You kinda need to go to uni for that iirc...

Hi Everybody!





Hello Doctor Nick!

 

[Ridge]

I thought you said you were a dentist or something. You kinda need to go to uni for that iirc...

I'm a self-taught IT Administrator for a local company.

 

[Eejit]

Oh ok I got you mixed up with one of the other right wing nutcases that hangs around here sometimes.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Oh ok I got you mixed up with one of the other right wing nutcases that hangs around here sometimes.

You're thinking of SIGbastard. As am I, nightly. What? We are liberals. We don't mind admitting to the psychosexual frisson of the whole thing.

Anyway, university was the best thing I ever did, but if you that intensely don't want to go, good on you. I suppose it's not for everyone and it seems like going to university is a more expensive proposition in the U.S. than in the U.K (where one can almost afford, like Kiplingscat says, to go "oh well **** it let's just go anyway").

 

[Escaep]

College is worthless. Studies have shown that, despite what you are told, a college diploma holder isn't any more likely to make more money in their lifetime than a high school grad.

Depends on your degree and your field. If I have an mba and I flip burgers at McDonald's I'm not going to make more than the high school grad next to me. Some careers you don't need to go to college for, mostly fields in the arts and graphics. You don't really need a degree to be a graphics/visual effects artist as you can teach yourself that. But its going to be hard to teach yourself accounting or how to remove a spleen.

You're thinking of SIGbastard. As am I, nightly. What? We are liberals. We don't mind admitting to the psychosexual frisson of the whole thing.

Anyway, university was the best thing I ever did, but if you that intensely don't want to go, good on you. I suppose it's not for everyone and it seems like going to university is a more expensive proposition in the U.S. than in the U.K (where one can almost afford, like Kiplingscat says, to go "oh well **** it let's just go anyway").

How much is private and public tuition in the UK? The private school I'm going to now is normally ~$46,000/year but thankfully I'm getting $25,000/year in scholarships plus I only need to go for two years to get my degree (AA in high school ftw ). Public university tuition here is around $16-$18k. Private is anywhere from $35-$50k.

 

[phantomdesign]

Depending on where you go to school, typically you’ll spend enough to buy 1-2 brand new Dodge Vipers.... at some schools you’ll spend the equivalent of a Ferrari.

Statistics are often cited that college students earn more over a lifetime, however I attribute that not to the education, or what it does for your resume, but rather that someone who goes to college is likely to be more driven and motivated.

There’s a huge list of highly successful people... the most successful people in the world, who never finished (or never started) college.

Take a look at this list.... recognize any names?
http://www.retireat21.com/blog/the-most-successful-college-dropouts-in-history#

My personal experience? I’ve learned business, psychology, math, marketing, 3D, programming, and much more on my own.... and cannot tell you a single thing I learned in college that I use today.

 

[Dynasty]

I dont think you can really compare stats of success in relation to their education like that though, its not so plain.

They succeeded through being naturally gifted. Yes, experience and proof of greatness will get you very, very far. Its a fine line between being forcefully educated and being naturally educated.

Alot of fortune can also come down to just pure luck. You could find a watch in your attic worth millions, and not even know about it until the day you move home. And money shouldnt be a measure of success and intellect based on that conclusion.

Dont forget, college or Uni isnt JUST about getting educated. Its about the entire experience, the experience of living away from home, having to look after yourself financially, having to cook for yourself, do your own washing, manage your time successfully; all that sets you up for life. Its something you cant REALLY get by not going. Somehow it doesnt feel the same as just learning all that stuff by not going to Uni, but I can see why people think they shouldnt bother.

All I know is that I wouldnt be the man I am today, completely changed from the guy hiding in his shell before I went to Uni. That alone is worth the £9k bill.