Debate: The Guerilla Tactic thats behind the Massacres in Iraq and Afghanistan

[K e r b e r o s]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8a_1180675064&c=1

This is a real straw drawer for me in my moral hand book and will change my outlook on the future of "Civilian Casualties" in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess the question is: Do you shoot at them? According to the rules of engagement, yes. But at what cost do these insurgents hope it will come priced? They're neighbors children killed, intentionally? Passerbyers, shot at? Just recently we were faced with this incident that occured in Afghanistan:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030400553.html

Most of us already knew about the varying degrees of Al-Qaeda guerilla methodology in Afghanistan and Iraq which criminally and specifically doctrinates that they're own people are to be subject to attacks which aim at both recruiting new members and destroying the credibility of Coalition Forces as an apt security force against terrorism.

However, for almost certainly most of you who've been kept out of the information loop on they're tactics, what your about to see is where Coalition soldiers and leaders are everyday challenged in they're ability to remain combatants with a conscious, and a video tape that clearly demonstrates what may have been possible in the Haditha and Jalalabad attacks, at the risk of civilian casualties with the intent to kill them second after the Coalition.

 

[SAJ]

Its probably wise to start a debate with some kind of position to argue from and some evidence to back it up with.
All I see is a video of some very determined(perhaps even, brave) men throwing explosives point-blank at military vehicles, it doesnt support anything you (are trying to) suggest.
You follow that up with an article about marines going kill-crazy during an ambush and killing civilians indeterminately. Again, not really supporting your argument, what little I can make out beyond some vague assertions and "what if" questioning.

If your argument boils down to "they made us do it, we cant tell friendly gooks from the evil gooks" , then all I have to say to you is Vietnam old boy.
Vietnam.

 

[No Limit]

Dude, wtf are you talking about?

I did not understand a single thing you said but let me guess, pretty much what you are saying is nuke all those evil brown people, right?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Its probably wise to start a debate with some kind of position to argue from and some evidence to back it up with.

I've already backed up two relevant things with the video documented evidence I've provided. Those would be the following two supported and supporting reasons thus far in my debate:

1.) The Insurgents unabated, continue to wage a war that currently risks and intentionally gambles the saftey and livelihood of the people around them. Those people are the ones who are not involved in ongoing or passive combat operations against the Coalition and therefore would lack the responsibility of the attack. However, by dressing like them, moving with them, and then attacking from them, anyone with them would become a potential target for retalliatory fire.

I credit both Haditha and the Jallalabad massacres as having this same potential as we witnessed here.

2. Coalition soldiers who know they were attacked will instinctively return fire at the general direction from where the attack came, which is just simply the Rules of Engagement; something the Insurgency hopes to politically contradict and quagmire as they attempt to stress the Coalition forces ability to protect themselves and distinguish they're attackers. Which is secondly what I've established as one of they're potential gains.

This is evidence that the insurgency not only uses the civilian population as shields against Coalition combat operations but uses them passively for they're own suprise attacks when launched.

Look up the Tak'Fir doctrine.

I did not understand a single thing you said but let me guess, pretty much what you are saying is nuke all those evil brown people, right?

Uhm, no. Please read again and for the sake of your clarity please underline where I made the 'mistake' of generalizing and even ignoring the atrocities commited by both the United States and its coalition allies. Because as the one wrote it, I still cannot make the same connection as you did.

 

[No Limit]

Uhm, no. Please read again and for the sake of your clarity please underline where I made the 'mistake' of generalizing and even ignoring the atrocities commited by both the United States and its coalition allies. Because as the one wrote it, I still cannot make the same connection as you did.

So you don't think we should kill them all? All you are saying is US forces should be allowed to fire in to civillian crowds?

I'm still not understanding any of your points here, it seems like you are trying to justify the Haditha killings, are you not?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

All you are saying is US forces should be allowed to fire in to civillian crowds?

If someone is shooting at you from a crowd of civilians, returning fire indiscriminately would not be an acceptable military practise and is condemnable by all accounts for the deaths of those uninvolved. Proper practise would be to ID the right shooter and to get the shooter, not the bystander -- in Guerilla Warfare its hard, but not impossible.

And yet, if played right it can be. So, my question is -- how do you get the ones guilty? You either don't, or you try, thats how and its tactics like these that make it that much harder on everyone.

Even worse is with hand-held thrown explosives because the evidence of the attack is discarded after use and certainly they're won't be any physical evidence left on you after you've just thrown it all for detonation. However, if you ID the person that did throw the explosive after the attack had been made by them, do you or can you shoot? Is that acceptable practise is what I'm asking.

What that also brings into question is -- despite the atrocities, is it that same decision making quagmire that perhaps influenced or was the direct cause for the killings at Haditha or Jallalabad? Is it also acceptable practise for our opposing forces to dress exactly like you would going to a neighbor or friends house then from a crowd of everyday people, launch an attack on a armed column of soldiers who have the potential to not think BUT REACT?

Not only is it in my opinion an unacceptable and endangering practise of warfare but also one that aims to influence the recruitment levels through a very criminal means. To see this, puts a whole new spin to Jallalabad and Haditha. Crazy and wrong the atrocities were but its possible this same strategy was in application.

 

[Solaris]

So what you're saying is, some of the insurgents use despicable tactics?

wow, get BBC news, you've uncovered a gold mind of media.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Exactly. I can't say our interrogators use any better or that the current administration is made of Sunshine and Kittens, but I'm thinking of the conflict both sides have to go through as a result.

Its not fair, and especially so to those around you, uninvolved to make them targets of an attack they did not commit.

 

[Solaris]

^ Exactly. I can't say our interrogators use any better or that the current administration is made of Sunshine and Kittens, but I'm thinking of the conflict both sides have to go through as a result.

Its not fair, and especially so to those around you, uninvolved to make them targets of an attack they did not commit.

No-body supports the insurgents who do that here though.

 

[Tyguy]

I dont know about you, but if I was in that humvee, id turn around and shoot them if I knew who threw it.

 

[CptStern]

What that also brings into question is -- despite the atrocities, is it that same decision making quagmire that perhaps influenced or was the direct cause for the killings at Haditha or Jallalabad? Is it also acceptable practise for our opposing forces to dress exactly like you would going to a neighbor or friends house then from a crowd of everyday people, launch an attack on a armed column of soldiers who have the potential to not think BUT REACT?

yes but that's not what happened in Hadditha ..we've been over this before Kerberos ..the evidence clearly shows that the people killed were non combatants ..women and children and a few old people. The massacre was initiated when a nearby patrol detonated a landmine killing one of the soldiers ..they freaked out and walked through the nearby houses and killed everyone inside DESPITE THE FACT THAT 8 OF THEM WERE CHILDREN ..sometimes I want to beat some sense into you. if they were jewish kids you'd be foaming at the mouth demanding justice

The Marines moved to the house next door, Fahmi said.

Inside were 43-year-old Khafif, 41-year-old Aeda Yasin Ahmed, an 8-year-old son, five young daughters and a 1-year-old girl staying with the family, according to death certificates and neighbors.

The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died screaming

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html

are you truely that much of an inhumane bastard that you would try to justify that? ..even if the infant had an rpg strapped to her crib the marines had no justification in slaughtering innocent women and children

Not only is it in my opinion an unacceptable and endangering practise of warfare but also one that aims to influence the recruitment levels through a very criminal means. To see this, puts a whole new spin to Jallalabad and Haditha. Crazy and wrong the atrocities were but its possible this same strategy was in application.

what the **** are you talking about? WHAT SPIN ON HADDITHA? they rode over a roadside bomb and the soldiers in question took it out of innocent civilians that had NOTHING to do with planting that bomb ..ffs one of the children killed in their little ****ing murderous killing spree was a little older than my infant daughter ..are you truely that stupid and blind that you cant see beyond supporting your partisan ideology that you cant recognise when an injustice has been perpetrated in YOUR name? goddam it I hate the politics forums sometimes because it attracts people like Kerberos who see everything as either one side or another, black and white, us against them mentality that BLINDS them to the reality of what the **** is actually going on ..it allows the war machine to continually march forward because people are too busy with their partisan heads up their collective asses to notice the fact that really bad things are happening to innocent people because of american foreign policy ..you're pathetic attempts at explaining hadditha is just that: pathetic

 

[Tyguy]

^ What he said

 

[No Limit]

K e r b e r o s, you're pretty ****ed up in the head. You say that our soldiers should not be allowed to fire at a crowd of innocent people and then in the exact same sentence you say that they should be allowed to as long as they are really careful :upstare:. Have you ever shot a ****ing gun? Do you have any ****ing clue as to what the **** you are talking about?

Sorry about my anger over this but people like him are the exact reason this world is so ****ed up.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

yes but that's not what happened in Hadditha ..we've been over this before Kerberos ..the evidence clearly shows that the people killed were non combatants

Conceded, as we also know the Insurgents who commited the ambush later returned to the site after fleeing from the initial attack which occured sometime in the afternoon and were later killed by an Airstrike at around 7:30 later that night when it was spotted they were carrying weapons and equipment for an IED. (What delivered the attack is still in question.)

The concern however, is that the Insurgents were in the area at the time of strike -- mines just won't detonate themselves unless activated by pressure, so then you have the problem of setting the explosive in just the right place so as to be run over, triggered by the vehicle activating its pressure plate, and then detonated when the weight releases.

The problem with that, is it will take so many mines to complete the operation in order to be effective, or not many at all because planting so many resources might get you caught by Coalition Reconissance Patrols or Drones.

We won't know for sure what it was but a mine it was'nt. They, the weapons controller, must've been within some kind of proximity to the blast because they were also allegedly recording the attack for propaganda purposes. I believe this recording might shed some new light on they're operation aswell as the atrocities that occured at Haditha.

For something so important to criminalize your enemy it makes little to no sense that this video has not been released over the internet.

The massacre was initiated when a nearby patrol detonated a landmine killing one of the soldiers

I've understood it as an Implemnted Explosive Device, if anything:

The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident where up to 24 Iraqi noncombatant civilians were allegedly massacred by the United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. Some allege the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of United States Marines with an improvised explosive device which killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[1]

A Marine Corps communique initially reported that 15 civilians were killed by the bomb's blast and eight insurgents were subsequently killed when the Marines returned fire against those attacking the convoy. However, evidence uncovered by the media contradicted the Marines' account.[2] The media reports prompted the U.S. military to open an investigation into the incident. The investigation found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians, including unarmed women and children", according to a Pentagon official.[3] On December 21, 2006, eight Marines from 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were charged in connection with the incident.[4][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre#Killings_and_immediate_aftermath

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5033648.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/13/america/NA-GEN-US-Marines-Haditha.php
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html

if they were jewish kids you'd be foaming at the mouth demanding justice

Personal Aside: It's my understanding that the steps taken to punish the Marines are a little slack in comparison to the rulings and punishments for the My Lai massacre. This still is'int over for them.

are you truely that much of an inhumane bastard that you would try to justify that?

You're going off topic here and I believe Solaris summed it up best for me: Insurgents use despicable tactics.

what the **** are you talking about? WHAT SPIN ON HADDITHA?

Please, CptStern. Either you calm down and explain to me where I used the word, "spin" or attempted its inferrence while describing the atrocities at Haditha or you simply calm down and move onto another topic. If you can't debate this with a cool head or you simply lack the skills nessecary to discuss something in a humane non-hot headed manner then I think you need to leave ... and take a breather.

Haditha was a massacre. End of discussion.

You say that our soldiers should not be allowed to fire at a crowd of innocent people and then in the exact same sentence you say that they should be allowed to as long as they are really careful

No. The question was do you fire into a crowd that has known enemy combatants in it, simply due to the fact they just got done hurling gernades at you and you've identified them for this purpose?

I also mentioned this: The Insurgents aim to quagmire that result by further protecting themselves through the use of nearby civilians as shields against retalliatory fire, so if any fire comes, it all looks indiscriminate and makes it the scene of a massacre, not an ambush. Thats all.