Did Kurt Cobain kill himself?
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oldagerocker
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yes. ya fool.
Stigmata
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Well, since he apparently had 70 times the lethal dose of heroin in his bloodstream, I'd say no. He'd have been dead two seconds after the needle went into his arm.
Unless that fact is wrong, in which case I will retract my earlier statement.
Unless that fact is wrong, in which case I will retract my earlier statement.
oldagerocker
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I think he did it, other people say Courtney Love did, but why would she?
PoeticRocker
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His music was so damn depressing, i bet it just kept bringing him down and down. Also hating the fact that he had to play smell like teenage spirit over and over again.
f|uke
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I'm a huge Nirv fan. I cried when Kurt died. Their music was my salvation back then.
I dont know if Kurt killed himself. I guess yes. He did seem to be suicidal and depressed. The man pioneered a whole new movement in the music scene.. he really was larger then life. Writing Nevermind was easy, because he was nobody,. it just came naturally. But with HSB the pressure was on,. and you can tell he really tried to grow as a musician,. but in some ways it really wasnt as good. I think the pressure of living up to his image was more then he could take,. he just didnt think he could keep it up. And so going out with a bang was better then fading away.
The silver lining of this, of course, was the Foo Fighters. Dave Grohl would never have taken the spotlite if Kurt hadn't died,. and Dave has some serious tallent. He might not be as revolutionary as Kurt, but he's a better musician.
I dont know if Kurt killed himself. I guess yes. He did seem to be suicidal and depressed. The man pioneered a whole new movement in the music scene.. he really was larger then life. Writing Nevermind was easy, because he was nobody,. it just came naturally. But with HSB the pressure was on,. and you can tell he really tried to grow as a musician,. but in some ways it really wasnt as good. I think the pressure of living up to his image was more then he could take,. he just didnt think he could keep it up. And so going out with a bang was better then fading away.
The silver lining of this, of course, was the Foo Fighters. Dave Grohl would never have taken the spotlite if Kurt hadn't died,. and Dave has some serious tallent. He might not be as revolutionary as Kurt, but he's a better musician.
Stigmata
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Oh, and to clarify for those in the dark about this whole issue, Kurt apparently jacked up on heroin, and then shot himself in the face with a shotgun. That's why I voted no; you can't pull a trigger when you're on a suicidal high.
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Wraith
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reasons for courtney to kill him:
first keep this in mind, according to her own father, she has been saying "im going to marry a rich and famous guy" since she was like 12 years old
1. the marriage was spoiling, kurt planned to take her out of his will and leave her
2. he was going to take francis bean with him (their daughter)
3. by killing him, she would gain somewhere around 3 million dollars
first keep this in mind, according to her own father, she has been saying "im going to marry a rich and famous guy" since she was like 12 years old
1. the marriage was spoiling, kurt planned to take her out of his will and leave her
2. he was going to take francis bean with him (their daughter)
3. by killing him, she would gain somewhere around 3 million dollars
Javes
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Wraith said:
The cherry on top is the suicide note, it was a good-bye note to courtney from cobain *apparently* originally, then the handwriting changes quite a bit and things were added to make it sound like a suicide note.
Oh and the shotgun had no prints on it, would someone who didn't give a flying fiddle about much (including his own body) wear gloves while killing himself, and then take them off and hide them after his own death...Me thinks not!
SupremePain
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He_Who_Is_Steve said:
"Wax my anus!"
Anyway i was thinking if the evidence was right ****ing there, then why the hell was love never a serious suspect?
We're just internet nerds throwing our thoughts out there. We may have a little knowledge on some parts.... but not enough to come to a final conclusion. Though ofcourse we're all intitled to our opinions.
I would say, following the evidence, no he did not kill himself.
(i voted yes by mistake though, lol)
KagePrototype
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CadetFrench
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Even if he died from the heroin, he still killed himself by taking so much. Why do you guys debate facts? The justice system would have had Cort as a suspect, she is a f*cking idiot and would not be able to cover her tracks so good that she would not even be a suspect in the trial. What are yall going to debate next? "Do you think the sun is a star?"
MuToiD_MaN
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The one hole in the logic here is that Courtney is too much of a crazy drugged up bitch to remember to remove the prints.
![[w0f]Oblivion](https://valvetime-data.community.forum/avatars/m/22/22191.jpg?1330940210){kind=avatar}
[w0f]Oblivion
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I dont believe he did, for several reasons
1 Too much heroine, Theres no way he would of been able to do anything
2 A credit card was taken from his wallet and used the day of his murder, AFTER he was dead.
3 no fingerprints were found on anything, not even kurts.
4 The "suicide note" didnt even talk about suicide it was all about him leaving the music industry, not untill a small footnote did it talk about suicide , and that was determined "Unconclusive" to whether or not it was his handwriting. (if you look at it yourself you can tell it just doesnt look right) look for yourself
http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/c/Kurt Cobain/Cobain note.JPG
notice at the bottom three lines or so, written big and unlike the rest of the letter.
1 Too much heroine, Theres no way he would of been able to do anything
2 A credit card was taken from his wallet and used the day of his murder, AFTER he was dead.
3 no fingerprints were found on anything, not even kurts.
4 The "suicide note" didnt even talk about suicide it was all about him leaving the music industry, not untill a small footnote did it talk about suicide , and that was determined "Unconclusive" to whether or not it was his handwriting. (if you look at it yourself you can tell it just doesnt look right) look for yourself
http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/c/Kurt Cobain/Cobain note.JPG
notice at the bottom three lines or so, written big and unlike the rest of the letter.
StardogChampion
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If you would read what Kage posted:[w0f]Oblivion said:
1. "the Kurt Was Murdered site claims that Cobain ingested between 225 mg and 240 mg of heroin that day and that it should have killed him, no matter what. Let's grant the 240 mg number. A study conducted in the 1970s reveals that some heroin addicts were able to survive "doses as high as 1800 mg without even being sick" (emphasis mine). (5) This is more than 7 times the dosage purported to have been taken by Cobain and nearly 25 times the fabeled 75 mg. Where this 75 mg number came from, I have no idea, but there is scientific data to support the fact that one can (and that many routinely do), in fact, survive such a dose."
2. Married couples let each other use their credit cards, especially when one of them has millions of $ on theirs.
3. "Beyond that, fingerprints won't stay on a surface for all eternity. The duration of time for which a fingerprint will remain on a surface depends on (a) what created the print, (b) what surface the print was on, and (c) what the environmental factors surrounding the surface were. (3) Rub your forehead with the fingers on your right hand and then go touch your mirror with your fingertips. Now wash the fingers on your left hand, dry them, and wait about five minutes without touching or handling anything. Now touch the area next to the place where your right-hand fingerprints are with your left hand fingertips. See the difference? For the sake of your personal hygiene, I hope so. Fingerprints are left on surfaces because of naturally-secreted liquids in the human body. This can include sweat or secretions from the sebaceous glands or any number of things. (4) Looking back at your mirror, which of the two sets of prints do you suppose will clean off easier? If you guessed the left hand prints, you're correct. The different chemical compositions of the different bodily fluids have differing degrees of water solubility (among other things) and since we have no idea what Cobain was doing before he killed himself, we don't know what fluids were on his fingers when he killed himself. Because we don't know what fluids were on his fingers, we can't make a judgment as to how his fingerprints would have shown up on the surface of the gun and what it would have taken to get the prints off. That said, we don't know what conditions surrounded the custody of the weapon for the month between it was used and when it was examined. Any number of things might have caused the prints to disappear or be smudged in such a manner that they were not useable for the purposes of the examination."
KagePrototype
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[w0f]Oblivion said:
It explained why he was commiting suicide and is effectively his last communication with the rest of the world, it doesn't actually have to mention the word "suicide" or anything (I think it's very fitting for his "last words"). And the big words look exactly like the smaller words, just a lot larger, likely for emphasis. Though I wouldn't be suprised if COurtney added them herself to gain attention (because she's an attention whore, not because she apparently killed Kurt).
I have had this discussion many times on forums before. I am still not sure what to believe. However, I put this piece together for a forum where the general opinion was that he was murdered. I like arguments.
The 1.52 mg/l figure is the amount of morphine that was injected into Cobain's body. This included free morphine and the conjugated morphine. Only the free morphine level shows if Cobain was incapacitated, or even dead. The police reports detail two injections, one in each inner elbow.This meant that he injected himself twice. Since morphine has a half-life of 2-3 hours, this could have meant that the free morphine level had dropped sufficiently by the time he injected himself for the second time, that he was still able to move.
Further, morphine weighs 3 and a third the weight of heroin. Since 1.52 mg/l roughly translates as 225-240mg of morphine taken, Cobain "only" took around 70mg of heroin. This is excluding the Valium that was also included in the 1.52mg/l figure. A severe addict can inject around 70mg of heroin without it proving lethal (a lethal dose is normally around 75-80mg). Since, with the valium, Cobain probably only took about 65mg of heroin. This would have been toxic and would almost certainly have incapacitated him. However, since he injected this at two separate times, it may not have incapacitated him (especially if he waited over the half-life of morphine), still allowing him to pull the trigger.
Image courtesy of justiceforkurt.com
That was by the top Handwriting analysists in the world at the top. Grant, when he examined the handwriting, was only stating his own _opinion_ by using the word "apparently". He even admitted it was only his opinion, hence the proffesional handwriting analysists should be used.
Let us now look at the note:
Image courtesy of justiceforkurt.com
When you write a note, and definetely want to others to read a certain bit of it, you write it bigger, no? Also, when high on morphine, surely your handwriting's going to change. The way to test someone's handwriting, is not by the look, although that can help, but by how hard they press. Although it's not a good picture, the handwriting does not get harder or softer from what we can see.
Also, if you're forging a note, you do try and make the handwriting the same size, don't you? Obviously, that hasn't been done here.
Now, the content of the letter.
Grant claimed these four lines, if written separately would for a suicide note, and the rest of the note was about leaving the music industry. Reading those separately, and trying to ignore any other evidence, it sounds to me more as a leaving note. Also, the actual note is not about leaving the music industry, but more about how Cobain feels. The last lines only indicate Kurt Cobain had the intention of leaving Courtney and Frances for some period of time. It had been previously reported that when Kurt overdosed in Rome, he had left a note saying he planned to "run away and disappear".
Four latent fingerprints were found on the shotgun taken from the scene. Grants claims, incorrectly, that this solid evidence that the gun was wiped.
The police noted the shotgun and case as one item. This may have meant that they placed the shotgun inside the case while taking it back to the station.
The gun was left laying in Cobain's hands for three days before the police even got near the gun. This was in a greenhouse with open doors. During the day, the greenhouse would heat up and during the night the greenhouse would cool down. This would make the fingerprints morph, making them unidentifiable.
An oil coating is normally applied to guns these days to protect against oxidisation. This would have stopped fingerprints being left on the gun, due to the fact that it would settle out over the three days.
Hartshorne claims, in "Heavier than Heaven", that Cobain's body was stiff and so he had to forcefully take the gun from Cobain's hand. Surely this would have damaged any fingerprints on Cobain's hand...
The 1.52 mg/l figure is the amount of morphine that was injected into Cobain's body. This included free morphine and the conjugated morphine. Only the free morphine level shows if Cobain was incapacitated, or even dead. The police reports detail two injections, one in each inner elbow.This meant that he injected himself twice. Since morphine has a half-life of 2-3 hours, this could have meant that the free morphine level had dropped sufficiently by the time he injected himself for the second time, that he was still able to move.
Further, morphine weighs 3 and a third the weight of heroin. Since 1.52 mg/l roughly translates as 225-240mg of morphine taken, Cobain "only" took around 70mg of heroin. This is excluding the Valium that was also included in the 1.52mg/l figure. A severe addict can inject around 70mg of heroin without it proving lethal (a lethal dose is normally around 75-80mg). Since, with the valium, Cobain probably only took about 65mg of heroin. This would have been toxic and would almost certainly have incapacitated him. However, since he injected this at two separate times, it may not have incapacitated him (especially if he waited over the half-life of morphine), still allowing him to pull the trigger.
Image courtesy of justiceforkurt.com
That was by the top Handwriting analysists in the world at the top. Grant, when he examined the handwriting, was only stating his own _opinion_ by using the word "apparently". He even admitted it was only his opinion, hence the proffesional handwriting analysists should be used.
Let us now look at the note:
Image courtesy of justiceforkurt.com
When you write a note, and definetely want to others to read a certain bit of it, you write it bigger, no? Also, when high on morphine, surely your handwriting's going to change. The way to test someone's handwriting, is not by the look, although that can help, but by how hard they press. Although it's not a good picture, the handwriting does not get harder or softer from what we can see.
Also, if you're forging a note, you do try and make the handwriting the same size, don't you? Obviously, that hasn't been done here.
Now, the content of the letter.
Please Keep going Courtney
for Frances
for her life which will be So much happier
without me. I lOVE YOU I LOVE YOU!
Grant claimed these four lines, if written separately would for a suicide note, and the rest of the note was about leaving the music industry. Reading those separately, and trying to ignore any other evidence, it sounds to me more as a leaving note. Also, the actual note is not about leaving the music industry, but more about how Cobain feels. The last lines only indicate Kurt Cobain had the intention of leaving Courtney and Frances for some period of time. It had been previously reported that when Kurt overdosed in Rome, he had left a note saying he planned to "run away and disappear".
That's about leaving the music industry, supposedly. Surely, any person that you ask in the street will tell you that it is closer to leaving a family, than solely quitting the music industry.
Again, quitting the music industry or dying?
If he's feeling "sad", why not commit suicide?
Four latent fingerprints were found on the shotgun taken from the scene. Grants claims, incorrectly, that this solid evidence that the gun was wiped.
The police noted the shotgun and case as one item. This may have meant that they placed the shotgun inside the case while taking it back to the station.
The gun was left laying in Cobain's hands for three days before the police even got near the gun. This was in a greenhouse with open doors. During the day, the greenhouse would heat up and during the night the greenhouse would cool down. This would make the fingerprints morph, making them unidentifiable.
An oil coating is normally applied to guns these days to protect against oxidisation. This would have stopped fingerprints being left on the gun, due to the fact that it would settle out over the three days.
Hartshorne claims, in "Heavier than Heaven", that Cobain's body was stiff and so he had to forcefully take the gun from Cobain's hand. Surely this would have damaged any fingerprints on Cobain's hand...
Bleeder
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I don't care what happened at this point....can't we all just agree that the whole situation was tragic, and move on? Please? For the love of god....KNOW ONE KNOWS, and I doubt if all the combined might of the brains on this site will solve anything all of the brains on all of the other sites have not been able to. Can you not just let the man rest in peace? Unless you have information that the police are not privy to, then you are just metaphorically digging up his corpse and defiling his spirit, in the name of what? Your own satisfaction? I loved/love Nirvana, now can we please just respect him for the man he was and not let this half-baked/ reality-show american exploitational mindset overshadow their INCREDIBLE ****ING MUSIC?!?
Farrowlesparrow
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I think if he was shot in the head, he wouldn't much care either way.
VaKo
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Take it from someone who's done a lot of drugs (including heroin, it was a *big* mistake), you can take a lot more of any given substance than doctors say...
So its very likely that Kurt begin a smackhead, could of taken enough heroin to kill a non-user and been able to function on some levels. The same way an alcoholic could get threw a bottle of whisky in a day, a stoner smoke an ounce in a day or a fat guy eat a 3" thick side of beef, your body can just adapt to it after a while.
So its very likely that Kurt begin a smackhead, could of taken enough heroin to kill a non-user and been able to function on some levels. The same way an alcoholic could get threw a bottle of whisky in a day, a stoner smoke an ounce in a day or a fat guy eat a 3" thick side of beef, your body can just adapt to it after a while.
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kurtCOBAINliveON
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First of all his music was depressing(what do expect from a grunge band). He was three times the lethal dose of heroin and it is extremely rare for someone to survive that(even a big-time addict). He wasn't just doing that to get his normal afternoon high. He was filing for divorce. So obviously there was tension between Courtney Love and Kurt. My oppion is that Courtney love had a connection (with money) with the detectives because the shot-gun wasn't fingerprinted until 1 month after he was found. His fingerprints weren't even on it. The so-called suicide note never said he was gonna kill himself directly. The second one that Courtney had also said that he was leaving seatle, not earth. He wouldn't have taken the risk of his daughter seeing him with his head blown all over the carpet. He would have just O.D.'d if he did want commit suicide. In conclusion...he was murdered, with no punishment to the murder.
KagePrototype
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