Embryonic Stem Cell Delirium

[gh0st]

No approved treatments have been obtained using embryonic stem cells. None at all. No human trials are being done. After 20 years of research, embryonic stem cells are not being used to treat people. Scientists have spent a whole generation to find out that embryonic stem cells are unreliable. Nature itself seems to react against their use since they tend to produce tumors, cause transplant rejection or form the wrong cells.

The record is extremely clear. These cells are not working and are even hazardous. There are no proven success stories in 20 years! There are no promising prospects for the near future. However, that does not stop the media’s cries. It does not stop celebrities infected with this delirium from demanding: embryonic stem cell research must be supported.

The worst thing is that ESC sufferers will not even rationally consider other alternatives. Adult stem cells have proven themselves time and again.

These cells can be obtained without killing human life. They are practical and ethical. Typically drawn from the bone marrow of patients, they have an excellent track record being used clinically over 30,000 times. Researchers are constantly making breakthroughs in this area.

And yet the conclusion from those with ESC delirium is not to pour public money into these very successful treatments but those that have failed. State governments across the country are climbing over each other to get on this failing bandwagon throwing good money after bad. Billions, not millions, of dollars are being invested on this pipe dream that is really fast becoming a nightmare.

You baby killing monsters should maybe have a read.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Stem cells are just latched on by the pro-abortion crowd to help their cause. Adult stem cells are their bane, it stops the 'usefulness' of a baby killing.

 

[bliink]

Embryonic stem cells are also obtained without killing human life... they are taken from the dead, but people are not killed for them. That article is just over the top.

I wouldn't call it a pipe dream... what about space travel? We havent left the area immediately surrounding us yet thats been worked on for more than 20 years. Ditto SETI.

What about cancer research? should we give up because we havent cured it in +50 years? AIDS?

If anything, we should increase research in areas that we can't make work yet.

20 years of fruitless research could be down to the fact that its being conducted by barely anyone and that its taboo in the non-scientific world.

What about string theory? nothing solid has come out of that yet but we keep trying.

Its silly to think that advances come just because the research on a subject exists.

 

[gh0st]

it doesnt make sense for a leftist media agenda to push cells harvested from corpses (i'm curious how cells live in dead tissue) while shut off other kinds of WORKING research, where great progress has already been obtained.

 

[bliink]

it doesnt make sense for a leftist media agenda to push cells harvested from corpses

Probably because they dont... I think this is just more OTT behaviour from the anti-research lobby, its easier to unite people for your cause if they have a common enemy.

(i'm curious how cells live in dead tissue)

Cells in tissue can live if the person is dead, but they're certainly useful in whatever state they must be in.

while shut off other kinds of WORKING research, where great progress has already been obtained.

Theres billions to be used for medical research thats being spent on utterly useless things like deep penetration nukes.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Theres billions to be used for medical research thats being spent on utterly useless things like deep penetration nukes.

Now that USEFUL. Use one of those and you wont care if your ill!

Anywho... Stem cells should be reasearched, i did a term paper on stem cells in relation to cloning, so i know roughly how it works. The "baby killer Save teh Unborn Chilldren!!!111one" people are just plain old fasioned morons that refuse to accept the truth.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Now that USEFUL. Use one of those and you wont care if your ill!

Anywho... Stem cells should be reasearched, i did a term paper on stem cells in relation to cloning, so i know roughly how it works. The "baby killer Save teh Unborn Chilldren!!!111one" people are just plain old fasioned morons that refuse to accept the truth.

"Adult stem cells have proven themselves time and again.

These cells can be obtained without killing human life. They are practical and ethical. Typically drawn from the bone marrow of patients, they have an excellent track record being used clinically over 30,000 times. Researchers are constantly making breakthroughs in this area. "

 

[Mechagodzilla]

OH GOD THE BABIES OH GOD.

http://www.allhatnocattle.net/embryonic stem cell.jpg

No, wait, stem cells are just cultured cells not unlike any other, except based in reproduction so they're suddenly and needlessly taboo.
Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. Get over it.

Millions of those same BABIES OH GOD NO have been thrown away over the years without anyone batting an eye.
But once scientists try to use these things to cure diseases, oh shit there's an uproar.
Why? I have no idea. Maybe the fear is that someone might actually benefit from a dead cell? I don't know.
It's natural to heap these things en masse into the medical waste bin, I guess. But having it done more intentionally, and by scientists of all people? Call the police, 'cause it's murder all of a sudden.

You might as well say that people who get bone marrow transplants are bloodsucking vampires, or that pacemakers create heartless creatures. Sure, in the vaguest convolutions of the words you might have a semblance of accuracy. Hell, maybe you could say the inventors of the horseless carriage actually possessed their carts with fire demons.
However, plunging headfirst into irrationality is of service to no-one.

That article certainly put on a show, but it's simply a conservative chap yelling GIVE UP GIVE UP GIVE UP. You've got to do better than that. Especially when you're trying to convince me that Random Christian Website is somehow more valid than actual science.
Hay, maybe you could even maybe get information out of an honest-to-god medical journal or basically anything else.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of people calling ESC dubious science are also supporters of creationism or intelligent design or whatever the hell it's called now.

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go murder some babies and then praise Satan or something. Or maybe I'll just go read some sources that aren't the bible or one-sided political websites telling me exactly what I want to hear.
Same difference either way, right?

Show me a single acknowledgement of the other side's possible validity on that website and I will shit my pants.

"Yes! Liberals are now GOD [sic] and can create artificial human life! This is exactly why bush [sic] is opposed to you fetus gobbling monsters."
With that much blatant hatred for other human adults, it's a surprise to me that you could care so much about a miniscule lump of goo.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Read Mecha's post for my opinion.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[ríomhaire]

I may be against abortion but I know that it does happen so I see no problem in embriotic stem cell research, they may as well be put to use. And I read somewhere before that embriotic stem cells are more useful than adult.

 

[jondy]

"Adult stem cells have proven themselves time and again.

These cells can be obtained without killing human life. They are practical and ethical. Typically drawn from the bone marrow of patients, they have an excellent track record being used clinically over 30,000 times. Researchers are constantly making breakthroughs in this area. "

Maybe if you concentrated on the science, rather than the politics, you'd understand why stem-cell research is important.

 

[Ennui]

I agree with Mechagodzilla completely here.

Also I'd like to offer that treatments or methods that work are often ignored by science... and as an example I'd like to drag cannabis into this conversation.

 

[Solaris]

Exactly.


I support abortion and stem cell research.

Mechagodzilla has mu support also.

 

[Kangy]

I'd like someone opposed to stem cell research of any kind to look a man with parkinsons or similar, who has kids, grandchildren and a wife in the eye and say that they completely disagree with the efforts made to cure his condition.

 

[gh0st]

No, wait, stem cells are just cultured cells not unlike any other, except based in reproduction so they're suddenly and needlessly taboo.
Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. Get over it.

Thanks for the interesting factoid, I didnt know that girls have this "vagina". They are "cultured" from in vitro fertilization or other methods, all involving a zygote. Even your sarcastic ass should be able to figure out why that bothers people.

Millions of those same BABIES OH GOD NO have been thrown away over the years without anyone batting an eye.
But once scientists try to use these things to cure diseases, oh shit there's an uproar.

Did it occur to you that people happen to support the pregnancy process, but not the process of harvesting (culturing ) them from human feeder cells.

Why? I have no idea. Maybe the fear is that someone might actually benefit from a dead cell? I don't know.

Yeah, as long as humans are suffering I'm happy. Get a grip.

You might as well say that people who get bone marrow transplants are bloodsucking vampires, or that pacemakers create heartless creatures. Sure, in the vaguest convolutions of the words you might have a semblance of accuracy. Hell, maybe you could say the inventors of the horseless carriage actually possessed their carts with fire demons.
However, plunging headfirst into irrationality is of service to no-one.

What? Bone marrow transplants come from willing donors of their own tissue. No different than a blood transplant in that regard. I'm not sure what you're trying to say near the end regarding the fire demons.

That article certainly put on a show, but it's simply a conservative chap yelling GIVE UP GIVE UP GIVE UP. You've got to do better than that. Especially when you're trying to convince me that Random Christian Website is somehow more valid than actual science.

Ok, then show me where embryonic stem cells have (lets say, in Europe if not the US) been used to treat diseases, or have success GREATER than adult stem cells. Could you do that? Gee maybe the article isnt so stupid after all.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of people calling ESC dubious science are also supporters of creationism or intelligent design or whatever the hell it's called now.

Well since I support embryonic stem cell research I cant speak for that. But I'm sure a reasonable amount of them are rather like you or me.

I'd like someone opposed to stem cell research of any kind to look a man with parkinsons or similar, who has kids, grandchildren and a wife in the eye and say that they completely disagree with the efforts made to cure his condition.

I did when christopher reeve was gobbling fetuses in front of congress. Embryonic stem cells are just not as developed as research involving adult stem cells, which have a far greater success rate.

Adult stem cells have successfully treated over 100 medical conditions including blindness [30], Krabbe's disease [31], diabetes [32], Parkinson's disease [33], acute renal failure [34], and sickle cell anemia [35]. Opponents of embryonic stem cell research have thus argued that embryonic stem cell funding restrictions in the U.S. are not significantly impeding the overall advancement of stem cell research, and that even without the ethical concerns regarding embryonic stem cells, public health funds should focus on extending adult stem cell research successes.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I'd like someone opposed to stem cell research of any kind to look a man with parkinsons or similar, who has kids, grandchildren and a wife in the eye and say that they completely disagree with the efforts made to cure his condition.

The point is you can accomplish stem cell research with Adult Stem Cells, which have yielded more results in the first place. You don't NEED a constant supply of abortions to supplement the research, you don't need abortion at all now.

The abortionists have lost a propoganda tool to use in support of the practice, and they won't fully let it go without fighting tooth and nail.

 

[diluted]

Isnt it ironic that the pro-life crowd was so vocal over the "murder" of Terry Schiavo, and yet they are the ones that oppose the research that in the future may help people in her condition. Oh, the irony.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Isnt it ironic that the pro-life crowd was so vocal over the "murder" of Terry Schiavo, and yet they are the ones that oppose the research that in the future may help people in her condition. Oh, the irony.

First of all, the pro-life crowd isn't the same crowd about Terry Schiavo, a lot were pro-life people, but the issue is a complicated one. I support a right to death if you want it, the problem was there was no living will that stated that, and you had her husband saying she did want it and her parents saying she didn't. Huge conflict there and thus the problem. If an old man with cancer wants to die and has made that clear, that's fine. But to act as if there wasn't an issue with complications is dumb.

Second, it's been stated MULTIPLE times in the thread, and in the damn original article, that there's nothing stopping stem cell reasearch. I don't get where you're getting that from whatsoever. You don't need fetal stem cells to do it now- that's the point.

 

[Beerdude26]

I'm confused. Do they get the stem cells from fetuses that are naturally grown (In the belly), or do they get them from 'cultivated' fetuses? Yeah, getting them from naturally grown fetuses is just a no-go, but 'cultivated' fetuses? If you care about them, you should also care about the millions of sperm cells that die when you masturbate, or the millions of animals that die each day because they are cultivated for their meat (OH THE HORROR)

 

[MjM]

I really dont see how you can get anywhere when you call people baby killers etc., gh0st.

In short im writing the article off as emotive and misleading bullshit ... here's why~

From your article:

It must be noted right from the start that even if embryonic stem cell research did help treatment and even cure diseases, it would be totally unacceptable since it kills human embryos.

From the University of Wisconsin-Madison:

Where do embryonic stem cells come from?
Human embryonic stem cells are derived from fertilized embryos less than a week old. Using 14 blastocysts obtained from donated, surplus embryos produced by in vitro fertilization, a group of UW-Madison developmental biologists led by James Thomson established five independent stem cell lines in November 1998. This was the first time human embryonic stem cells had been successfully isolated and cultured.

The cell lines were capable of prolonged, undifferentiated proliferation in culture and yet maintained the ability to develop into a variety of specific cell types, including neural, gut, muscle, bone and cartilage cells.

The embryos used in the work at UW-Madison were originally produced to treat infertility and were donated specially for this project with the informed consent of donor couples who no longer wanted the embryos for implantation.

In virtually every in vitro fertilization clinic in the world, surplus embryos are discarded if they are not donated to help other infertile couples or for research. The research protocols were reviewed and approved by a UW-Madison Institutional Review Board, a panel of scientists and medical ethicists who oversee such work.

Unless you are willing to also rile against in vitro, the pragmatist in me says this is a fundamentally better use of doomed embryo's.


I find this Ironic:

Such tactics are symptoms of what might be called an embryonic stem cell (ESC) delirium – a syndrome that causes patients to cling obstinately to such false conclusions and compulsively black out any other opinion.

Biblical religion delirium, anybody?
... a syndrome that causes individuals to cling obstinately to such fanciful beliefs and compulsively black out any other opinion.

From the United States National Institute of Health:

Why not use adult stem cells instead of using human embryonic stem cells in research?
Human embryonic stem cells are thought to have much greater developmental potential than adult stem cells. This means that embryonic stem cells may be pluripotent—that is, able to give rise to cells found in all tissues of the embryo except for germ cells rather than being merely multipotent—restricted to specific subpopulations of cell types, as adult stem cells are thought to be.

More recent news:

Tackling a pressing and controversial technical barrier in stem cell biology, scientists at the WiCell Research Institute and UW-Madison have crafted a recipe that allows researchers to grow human embryonic stem cells in the absence of mouse-derived "feeder" cells, long thought to be a source of potential contamination for the therapeutically promising cells.

After years of trial and error, scientists have coaxed human embryonic stem cells to become spinal motor neurons, critical nervous system pathways that relay messages from the brain to the rest of the body.

It would seem progress is being made ...

As for the other comments made; this is science not evrything is resolved in seven days.

Refer to this page for more: http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcells/

 

[Mechagodzilla]

MJM wins the post award for at least today. That's how it's done.

Read that post please, anyone who is against the research.
Then please read it again.

The cells are 'dying' anyways. All you're opposing is the process of salvaging them as possible cures for disease.

I'm confused. Do they get the stem cells from fetuses that are naturally grown (In the belly), or do they get them from 'cultivated' fetuses? Yeah, getting them from naturally grown fetuses is just a no-go, but 'cultivated' fetuses?

The cells are cultivated, but they're not fetuses at all. Think more like a petri dish.

 

[sinkoman]

If you ask me, that's a much too biased site to be worth anything accurate.

I mean, just look at the site title, then look at the ESC bash.

 

[DreamThrall]

I love how ghost can make references to the "leftist media agenda" while referencing an article from "The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property" and keep a straight face.

 

[CptStern]

Biblical religion delirium, anybody?
... a syndrome that causes individuals to cling obstinately to such fanciful beliefs and compulsively black out any other opinion.

too good not to add to my sig :thumbs:

 

[MjM]

Glad to be of service

 

[Apos]

There is nothing more bone-headedly insane than caring about the well-being of a clump of cells that has no nervous system, no feelings, no concerns, no prior existence, no hopes, etc. There's no sensible argument to be made. It's just pure madness. You might as well care about the well being of all the hair abandoned in barbershops.

 

[OCybrManO]

What we should really be concerned about is Stern cell research. Stern cells have the capability to cure any and all diseases known to occur in humans. Sadly, there is only one source for good Stern cells. Scientists have tried expanding to other sources such as Howard Stern, Mike Stern, or Isaac Stern... but their attempts have, so far, been fruitless. In the case of Howard Stern cells the patient's appearance and mind are significantly altered, turning him/her into disgusting, creepy-looking pervert and giving him/her several STDs. We need more sources of potent Stern cells. Write to your congressmen in support of cloning CptStern so that we can finally put an end to all illnesses... including conservativism.

 

[CptStern]

:O



/me runs before nerd types with petri dishes coming a calling

 

[Viperidae]

What we should really be concerned about is Stern cell research. Stern cells have the capability to cure any and all diseases known to occur in humans. Sadly, there is only one source for good Stern cells. Scientists have tried expanding to other sources such as Howard Stern, Mike Stern, or Isaac Stern... but their attempts have, so far, been fruitless. In the case of Howard Stern cells the patient's appearance and mind are significantly altered, turning him/her into disgusting, creepy-looking pervert and giving him/her several STDs. We need more sources of potent Stern cells. Write to your congressmen in support of cloning CptStern so that we can finally put an end to all illnesses... including conservativism.

That gave me quite a laugh. Now the people in my house are giving me funny looks.