Everybody should see this...

[Art_Crime]

With the new CSS out, I of course wanted to buy it as soon as possible, but was stopped for a moment by the mammoth "Suscriber Agreement". Me, being a first amendment guy, wanted to scan through it just to make sure there wasn't a "you give valve the right to give you viruses".

Well, I basically found one.

Part !V: Billing info

Credit Card Payment

I quote "For recurring monthly Subscriptions, each month that you use such Subscription(s), you agree and reaffirm that Valve is authorized to charge your credit card for the Subscription fee."

Um hello, basically valve just said.

1. We probably intend to have an "everquest-like" steam subscription fee in the future.

and

2. We can automatically charge you.

Also on the "quite disturbing" list.

Part 7

"'User Generated Information' means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Steam Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind."

Um, that means whatever you say can be used or modified in any way at their discretion.

Not to mention it says that whenever they want, they can change the agreement, and YOU, the user, must read the 10 page or so document every thirty days to avoid hidden fees.

If this doesn't prove the steam dissenters right I have no idea what does. Until now, I was okay with steam, now I think the future of my purchases on steam will be in jeopardy.

I hope you read this and respond, because this affects YOU.

 

[Steven Q Urkle]

this is really old news. people who dont play much can choose to pay 10 bucks a month to play halflfie 2/tf2, ect then cancel it and game/gamesgoes away

 

[Neutrino]

The subscription thing is optional. We've known about that for a while.

 

[Edge]

Interesting... but it does not sway my decision. Lawyers right those things and they put alot of fluff in to cover their ass. The pay2play would result in me immediately cancelling any such subscription.

 

[f|uke]

I quote "For recurring monthly Subscriptions, each month that you use such Subscription(s), you agree and reaffirm that Valve is authorized to charge your credit card for the Subscription fee."

This only applys to people who sign up for recurring monthly subscriptions.

1. We probably intend to have an "everquest-like" steam subscription fee in the future.

Not exactly. In EQ, you pay for the game and then its montly usage. With VALVe, you pay for the game or its montly usage.

"'you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind."

Well, they certainly need the right to have it broadcasted, otherwise you wouldn't be able to communicate. Now what does this mean in a practical sense? Perhaps you should not discuss your brilliant idea for a screenplay over the Steam network.

Not to mention it says that whenever they want, they can change the agreement, and YOU, the user, must read the 10 page or so document every thirty days to avoid hidden fees.

VALVe does not have the right to charge your credit card without your approval.

I understand, its good to be cautious. But it sounds pretty standard to me.

 

[Ownzed]

I don't know what he's saying so...

 

[SEAL-1]

VALVe does not have the right to charge your credit card without your approval.

I understand, its good to be cautious. But it sounds pretty standard to me.

Therein lies the problem; if Valve reserves the right to arbitrarily change the agreement as they see fit, they could (hypothetically) re-write the agreement to state whatever they want, and you are in agreement with it because you signed up for the service. Its up to you to keep up to date on what's in the agreement. Basically, you're "signing" a very flexible contract. In other words, they already have your permission regardless of what policy changes they make. Now I doubt that they'd do such a thing, the lawsuits would be numerous and would eventually end up destroying them in the end if they tried it, but its still a possibility. It does make me somewhat wary of what I agreed to when I clicked "I agree with the terms" when I bought my Silver pre-order tonignt.

 

[f|uke]

Therein lies the problem; if Valve reserves the right to arbitrarily change the agreement as they see fit, they could (hypothetically) re-write the agreement to state whatever they want.

There are obvious legal limitations to this. Its not like we just signed over our soul, and that VALVe could change the agreement to "You agree to turn over all your worldly possetions to us". No, they're limited in what they can do. They cannot charge you without your expressed consent, and we did not agree to future charges.

 

[Art_Crime]

There are obvious legal limitations to this. Its not like we just signed over our soul, and that VALVe could change the agreement to "You agree to turn over all your worldly possetions to us". No, they're limited in what they can do. They cannot charge you without your expressed consent, and we did not agree to future charges.

Ah, but it seems you do agree to future charges, unless you read the rather lengthy and dry document every thirty friggin days.

I think that's a little unrealistic.

Tell me, are you planning to do that?

 

[Narcolepsy]

I fully understand your paranoia.
We would, however, sue Valve into the ground if they ever tried to do such a thing.

 

[Orange]

They can't get you onboard with one set of agreements, change them, and hold you to the new rules without your agreement on the change.

edit: And it's not so much amatter of looking up changes, for you to use the service, they would have to bring it to your attention. Either you can't play the game and you look for it, or it pops up and they tell you of the changes.

Even if they did "trick" you into agreeing with the new rules, you would be able to cancel the new agreement. There is almost always a way to cancel something.

If they tried anything offensive, some jackass, or smart person, would file a law suit and get rediculously rich.

 

[MetalliMyers]

Ok, Art_Crime's new name is now Capt. Conspiracy Threory...

 

[Art_Crime]

Ok, Art_Crime's new name is now Capt. Conspiracy Threory...

And MetalliMyers new name is Sgt. Sucker...

 

[Gotter]

I have yet to read a EULA that DOESN'T say it can change at any time. Has that stopped you from buying any other software?

Valve is in business. Businesses do not make a habit of doing things stupid like changing agreements and changing someone's charges on a whim. They put that in there to cover their asses as any good contract lawyer would do.

But maybe you should keep your tin-foil hat nearby just in case, the government might be in on it.

 

[koncept]

quick! everybody buy the retail so you have it on cd! haha suckers!

...

hello! good day! cheers!

 

[lifebringer]

Alright, you guys overlooking this legal contract are freakin idiots.

1) Steam isn't a MMORPG or a pay-to-play over long periods of time sort of thing. As one person said earlier, Valve has said that will probably be an OPTION sometime in the future. Go read about it, quit your stupid bitching.

2) "User Generated Information" (UGI) is something I'm not familiar with, but I'm not surprised or pissed at it, either. As someone said earlier, it's common sense not to talk about your brand new idea for a great, money-making screenplay on steam. Now, Valve isn't likely to A) be monitoring your chat on steam anyway, B) give a damn about your stupid screenplay, or C) steal your damn screenplay...but it seems like since your idea falls under UGI from steam, it seems to me like they're legally the owners of any idea which originates from or is concieved upon steam. Live with it...are you a scientist chatting with your friend on steam on a genius way to cure cancer, or are you a hardcore gamer asking when the next HL2 LAN party will be? Good lord, get a brain.

It's common sense: if you've got a great ideal for some Valve game/merchandise, don't tell someone from Valve (or anyone) about it over steam...or via email, for that matter. (Your best bet in this highly unlikely scenario would be to write and sign two copies of the same letter, and send one to yourself and one to Valve. In the highly, HIGHLY unlikely that Valve tries to steal your idea (much less even uses it, ha!), you've got an unopened, postmarked letter to show that it's your idea.

In the end, though, this seems like a standard clause to me, and not something for Valve to try to **** you. They don't even give a damn about your chat over the friends network, anyway...I see this as mostly a way to claim ownership over the data you generate for them (surveys, usage patterns, account info).

3) I'm really amazed, Art_Crime, that you call yourself a "first amendment guy" and yet make such a damn stupid big fuss out of this. You imply that you frequently read contracts...well, as I see how you're acting, you must not. Go read just about ANY contract out there, specifically the ones between software companies and end users who have to agree to the terms of a license/contract. There is almost ALWAYS a clause saying something to the effect of "We reserve the right to change this contract at any time without notifying you [granted, sometimes they must notify you] and you agree it is your sole responsibility to stay up to date with the latest contract." This is common, common, common. Live with it.

Thanks very much for wasting my damn time, but you people needed this. Man, I wish I was a mod so I could close this thing. Goodness, what a dumb thread...

 

[merc]

its not like they are going to charge you without you knowing... im nto worried about it, i payed my 60 for my games and thats it they arent going to charge me randomly for other things

-merc

 

[Wicked Spider]

yes sounds pretty standart contract
BTW cellular companies can use your information to forward them to other companes its written in the contracts

 

[JaegerMaster]

I always use a Visa Bank-Card from an account with only like $75 in it at any given time, so I'm never worried about getting too ripped off when I use it... But, Yes Valve would have to have your consent, just like they did when they took your money today, to charge you any new fees.. You signed the agreement today as it stands, if it changes, they have to have your apporval...

 

[hasan]

Act_Crime, if you don't know, ask us, and we will tell you (sorry for rudeness, sometimes I'm just a know-it-all wannabe )

about over a year ago, valve announced that there will be an option for people to subscribe to steam for a monthly fee, which will give them acess to ALL steam games, that means if valve releases 10 games on steam, each one costing $30, you get them for just $10 a month.

Apparently, if you subscribe then you are giving them a consent to pull money off your credit card everyh; you don't expect them to send you an e-mail every month asking for permission or something. or how about suspending your account after 30 days until you pay the cost of this month?

Anyways, that was a long time ago, recently they announced that they dropped this option.

The section you quoted is obviously talking aobut that.

Now, there are currently three options, Gold, Silver, Bronze. None of them can be assosiated with that rule in anyway.

 

[Icarus]

Art_Crime, you completely misunderstood the Agreement.

*Closed*