Fallout 3 lead designer tackles why Bethesda's ignoring fan outcries

[Nabobalis]

While he did explain how open-endedness would be portrayed in-game, Pagliarulo also addressed another more important concern surrounding the game. Why is Bethesda shunning the fanbase? Pagliarulo answered:

That?s always the toughest question. You listen to the fans and respect their ideas, but once you start designing a game that they want to make specifically, then you can get yourself into trouble.

So Bethesda's focusing on making a game that they want to play. He later said that because of the Fallout 3's momentum, and now that its release is on the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC is inevitable, they really couldn't worry anymore about what fans are complaining about.

From Here

So heres their reason for ignoring the fans, do you agree or should he be bitch slapped and told to redo Fallout 3?

Me, I don't know. I have never really played the games nor know any lore, so I'm not to fussed as long as its a good game. However if they butcher it so much that its not really fallout anymore then it might just flop and potentially end the franchise unless they do a massive u-turn for the 4th one.

 

[Jintor]

What selfish bastards!

 

[Tagaziel]

Frankly, fans almost always want the same damn game all over again. Fallout 3 is going to be different, because it's being made by different people, in a completely different time period, with completely different market conditions. It might be excellent, or even better than the earlier games in the series, or it might be terrible. But if you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to play it. You can keep on sucking off the first Fallout if you like (you know, because real fans think Fallout 2 is crap); the rest of the world is going to be playing a fun game. The developers should have the creative power to make the decisions that they feel will produce the best game possible; whining and bitching at them because it's not 1997 all over again won't get you anything.

We've been over this.

If Bethesda wants so bad to create a post-nuclear retro-fifties FPS with RPG elements, then why take an existing hardcore RPG franchise to mutilate?

All design elements of Fallout were chosen conciously. The isometric view wasn't a technical limitation, to claim that is to be an ignorant moron. First/third person gaming has existed for a long time before Fallout and had a much longer history, including the Wizardry series, Dungeon Master, Ishar series, hell, even Bethesda's own Daggerfall and Arena (back when the studio was creating breathtaking, innovative games).

But even the change of the viewpoint and mechanics (to a realtime FPS) can be ignored, IF Bethesda actually cared about the Fallout's lore and setting. Their environment art is good, but what populates it ranges from average to downright abysmal.

Seriously. Why didn't they create their own franchise instead of taking one that is for all intents and purposes non-marketable since most of their target demographic (kids with consoles) has absolutely no ideas what Fallout is?

But still the studio took the bad rap and now are poised to complete the less RPG, more FPS Fallout 3, ignoring fan outcries altogether. This wouldn't be the first time Bethesda's pulled that trick on thousands of players when the studio performed a similar handstand during the bickering over The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

Yeah, when they took everything that made the TES unique, replacing it with "generic fantasy adventure #4541".

 

[Naph]

Then it turns out their ideas are better and everyone ends up loving the game.

 

[Absinthe]

Fan wants and concerns can only be taken into account so much. The fact is that most gamers are not game designers themselves. Fans of any game often have no clue what they want and/or what's good for it. Anybody who thinks this is somehow denigrating or needlessly dismissive should check out our own resident HL2 sections. Many fan suggestions lack insight into how a game actually works, are unreasonable, or sometimes flat-out dumb. Of course you always find people who are more level-headed and reasonable; who have developed an acute understanding of what works and what doesn't in the series. My point is only that we would get far more hamstrung, messy titles if developers had to cave in to fans.

But Fallout 3 is different. Different enough from previous entries that I think it warrants criticism. It could go one way or the other, as its not yet proven itself in my eyes. And some changes, like to the conversation system, just leave me asking "Why?". While I do believe much of the backlash it's received is ridiculous, there's some valid concerns resting beneath it all.

You can only hope that when the title's finally delivered you can enjoy it despite previous expectations. If they've done their job well, you won't even notice, or may find yourself wondering why you wanted X feature in the first place. Although I imagine this will be almost impossible in Fallout's case, where the fanbase has had a decade to settle into it and develop their thoroughly comprehensive ideas and expectations of what makes a Fallout game.

 

[Kyorisu]

If Bethesda wants so bad to create a post-nuclear retro-fifties FPS with RPG elements, then why take an existing hardcore RPG franchise to mutilate?

Because maybe the like Fallout but want to create a Fallout game they whey they would like it. Jeez cry more.

All design elements of Fallout were chosen conciously. The isometric view wasn't a technical limitation, to claim that is to be an ignorant moron.

Who ****ing cares.

First/third person gaming has existed for a long time before Fallout and had a much longer history, including the Wizardry series, Dungeon Master, Ishar series, hell, even Bethesda's own Daggerfall and Arena (back when the studio was creating breathtaking, innovative games).

All great games.

But even the change of the viewpoint and mechanics (to a realtime FPS) can be ignored, IF Bethesda actually cared about the Fallout's lore and setting. Their environment art is good, but what populates it ranges from average to downright abysmal.

Of course you could do a better job with your own design and a bag of money yes? Well you don't have that bag of money and at least someone is trying to continue Fallout.

Seriously. Why didn't they create their own franchise instead of taking one that is for all intents and purposes non-marketable since most of their target demographic (kids with consoles) has absolutely no ideas what Fallout is?

Seriously why does it matter to you so god damned much? Even if it's a flop you can still say "that was the one made by Bethesda." Constant calls against Beth saying they are ruining the Fallout name are just silly and a waste of breath. It's a video game for christs sake get over it. I couldn't care less about Fallout or Beth but jeez you do a good job of bitching over nothing.

Say Fallout 3 flops. How would that change anything? I don't think I've seen so much energy wasted crying about a video game.

 

[Tagaziel]

Then it turns out their ideas are better and everyone ends up loving the game.

If you approach it as an FPS game, then sure.

You can only hope that when the title's finally delivered you can enjoy it despite previous expectations. If they've done their job well, you won't even notice, or may find yourself wondering why you wanted X feature in the first place. Although I imagine this will be almost impossible in Fallout's case, where the fanbase has had a decade to settle into it and develop their thoroughly comprehensive ideas and expectations of what makes a Fallout game.

Don't forget about Van Buren. A game near completion, cancelled by Interplay management to fund the Craptics 2 and FOOS 2. And while it had it's share of criticisms (primarily over the merger of skills, which was a little weak in certain points), it was going to be a real Fallout 3.

It's kind of like dating a girl for years and when you are about to get laid, she steals your wallet and runs.

Because maybe the like Fallout but want to create a Fallout game they whey they would like it. Jeez cry more.

Then why bill it as the third part of the series, when it has *nothing* in common with the previous titles? Your hate doesn't make any sense.

Who ****ing cares.

Those who care about quality. You see, the mentality you represent is the reason of the overall decline in quality of gaming.

All great games.

Yeah, but a completely different type of RPGs. First person dungeon crawlers (for the most part). Where is dungeon crawling in Fallout?

Of course you could do a better job with your own design and a bag of money yes? Well you don't have that bag of money and at least someone is trying to continue Fallout.

Actually, yes, I would, since I'd hire developers who have experience in creating RPGs from way back. And Rosh.

As for continuing... it's better for the franchise to stay dead than be continued in a way that no longer resembles the original. FOOS and FOT tried to continue, but flopped in no small part due to switching the gameplay.

Seriously why does it matter to you so god damned much. Even if it's a flop you can still say "that was the one made by Bethseda"

Because I love Fallout as I love my books. Fallout FPS is like someone took the pseudonym of Kurt Vonnegut and started releasing pornographic novels.

 

[Kyorisu]

Don't forget about Van Buren. A game near completion, cancelled by Interplay management to fund the Craptics 2 and FOOS 2. And while it had it's share of criticisms (primarily over the merger of skills, which was a little weak in certain points), it was going to be a real Fallout 3.

It's kind of like dating a girl for years and when you are about to get laid, she steals your wallet and runs.

Welcome to the video game industry, it's a bitch.

 

[Tagaziel]

Welcome to the video game industry, it's a bitch.

And this somehow explains the decision to go bankrupt instead of releasing a game that can potentially save the company?

Puh-leaze.

 

[Kyorisu]

And this somehow explains the decision to go bankrupt instead of releasing a game that can potentially save the company?

Puh-leaze.

Bitch isn't it? See what I did there? Potentially awesome projects die all the time in and out of the games industry. Nothing to get upset over years later.

 

[Tagaziel]

Bitch isn't it? See what I did there?

High caliber stupidity rather.

 

[Kyorisu]

Or trolling whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

[Tagaziel]

Or trolling whatever you feel comfortable with.

If you could stop posting and think for a minute, you would see that I was referring to Caen's decision.

Which later resulted in selling the IP to Bethesda instead of quality studios like Obsidian.

 

[Jintor]

****ing quote wars.

 

[Gargantou]

I like Fallout 3, it will be bestest RPG ever, bester than all other Fallouts no matter what them polacks say.

 

[Tagaziel]

I like Fallout 3, it will be bestest RPG ever, bester than all other Fallouts no matter what them polacks say.

I knew I could count on you, Gargie.

Much love, sweedie.

<3

 

[Gargantou]

<3 u 2 hun, cya later 2nite

 

[Tagaziel]

We're so...

Spoiler

Non-heterosexual.

 

[Krynn72]

Bethesda is on the verge of bankruptcy?

 

[PvtRyan]

Here's a tip Fallout fans, if you want a game that's exactly like the previous Fallout games, I have good news for you: those games exist and they're called Fallout 1 and Fallout 2.

 

[Tagaziel]

Here's a tip Fallout fans, if you want a game that's exactly like the previous Fallout games, I have good news for you: those games exist and they're called Fallout 1 and Fallout 2.

We went over this too. We don't want a carbon copy of Fallout (which is a stupid rumour invented by the media and Pete "Liez" Hines). We want a sequel that stays true to what makes Fallout tick.

 

[Laivasse]

While I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in Bethesda to make a worthy successor to Fallouts 1&2, I can't help but be irked by the "the game they're making is commercial suicide!" argument put forth by Fallout die-hards. The NMA crew would have people believe that Bethesda's creation of an FPS-RPG in Fallout's particular style is a blooper that will somehow sink the company, since supposedly it appeals to neither FPS fans nor RPG'ers. They say this because they want to attribute an element of commercial pragmatism to the entirely selfish (yet justified) desire to have a Fallout 3 that's replete with all the depth and complexity of the Fallouts of old.

It just isn't true though. People will buy an Oblivion-with-guns game, probably in large numbers, regardless of the fact that F3's just another instalment in an aging PCRPG series. The fact that Oblivion shared a similar heritage to Fallout 3 didn't stop it from becoming the fastest selling Xbox360 game ever upon release, nor from charting in the top 10 as late as the middle of last year. And while I share the widespread disappointment at the missed opportunity that was Oblivion - the most graphically immersive yet least substantive game I've ever played - I really don't think that most people shared that sense of disillusionment. The average console gamers who bought Oblivion probably got about as much as they expected to get from it.

It had plenty of widespread appeal, too. I had a colleague who bought Oblivion without having played an RPG before in his life. Consumers will likely give Fallout 3 the same positive response that they've given to other big, singleplayer, offline, story-driven games like Oblivion and Bioshock, because they're a prospect that appeals to a lot of people. Hell, even most of the people who hate what F3 is shaping up to be will probably still buy it just to see if Bethesda maybe pulled off a miraculous fluke.

 

[Tagaziel]

While I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in Bethesda to make a worthy successor to Fallouts 1&2, I can't help but be irked by the "the game they're making is commercial suicide!" argument put forth by Fallout die-hards. The NMA crew would have people believe that Bethesda's creation of an FPS-RPG in Fallout's particular style is a blooper that will somehow sink the company, since supposedly it appeals to neither FPS fans nor RPG'ers. They say this because they want to attribute an element of commercial pragmatism to the entirely selfish (yet justified) desire to have a Fallout 3 that's replete with all the depth and complexity of the Fallouts of old.

It just isn't true though. People will buy an Oblivion-with-guns game, probably in large numbers, regardless of the fact that F3's just another instalment in an aging PCRPG series. The fact that Oblivion shared a similar heritage to Fallout 3 didn't stop it from becoming the fastest selling Xbox360 game ever upon release, nor from charting in the top 10 as late as the middle of last year. And while I share the widespread disappointment at the missed opportunity that was Oblivion - the most graphically immersive yet least substantive game I've ever played - I really don't think that most people shared that sense of disillusionment. The average console gamers who bought Oblivion probably got about as much as they expected to get from it.

It had plenty of widespread appeal, too. I had a colleague who bought Oblivion without having played an RPG before in his life. Consumers will likely give Fallout 3 the same positive response that they've given to other big, singleplayer, offline, story-driven games like Oblivion and Bioshock, because they're a prospect that appeals to a lot of people. Hell, even most of the people who hate what F3 is shaping up to be will probably still buy it just to see if Bethesda maybe pulled off a miraculous fluke.

I hate to spoil your argument by pointing out that I was referring to the cancellation of Van Buren.

 

[Laivasse]

Be happy that you've spoilt nothing then, since I wasn't responding to you in particular but rather to the arguments I've seen whenever I've visited NMA.

 

[Tagaziel]

Be happy that you've spoilt nothing then, since I wasn't responding to you in particular but rather to the arguments I've seen whenever I've visited NMA.

Oh, true.

However, I don't think it'll be a smash hit either. Moderately succesful, yes, but not a blockbuster.

 

[Cerpin]

Was Van Buren cancelled because Bethesda was interested in making F3?

It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a dick.

It's not like F3 will ruin the previous games in any way. To be quite honest, I doubt the game would even have been made if it wasn't for Bethesda. In that case, I don't see what the big deal is for the hardcore fans who don't like this new game. Just ignore it.

 

[Sedako]

In that case, I don't see what the big deal is for the hardcore fans who don't like this new game. Just ignore it.

Without Fallout 3, the NMA kids would have nothing left to bitch about, and their lonely forum would shrivel up and die. The series is almost literally the lifeblood of it's members, and mean old Bethesda is waving a scalpel dangerously close the heart of it all.

 

[Cornerstone]

Was Van Buren cancelled because Bethesda was interested in making F3?

It's an honest question, I'm not trying to be a dick.

It's not like F3 will ruin the previous games in any way. To be quite honest, I doubt the game would even have been made if it wasn't for Bethesda. In that case, I don't see what the big deal is for the hardcore fans who don't like this new game. Just ignore it.

Black Isle Studios look it up and pen and paper cRPG emulation look it up...

 

[Tagaziel]

Was Van Buren cancelled because Bethesda was interested in making F3?

No, ti was canceled because of in-company politics and Caen wanting to release a sequel to FOOS and FOT.

Without Fallout 3, the NMA kids would have nothing left to bitch about, and their lonely forum would shrivel up and die. The series is almost literally the lifeblood of it's members, and mean old Bethesda is waving a scalpel dangerously close the heart of it all.

Too bad we also cover general post-nuclear projects and independent games, such as Afterfall, Project Zero or FIFE.

 

[Kyorisu]

We're so...

Spoiler

Non-heterosexual.

I approve of this product and or event.

We went over this too. We don't want a carbon copy of Fallout (which is a stupid rumour invented by the media and Pete "Liez" Hines). We want a sequel that stays true to what makes Fallout tick.

I really do think it's just an impossible thing to wish for unless it's made by the original team. We've all seen sequels made by teams other than the original before and they fail to live up to the original. I'd hope with Fallout 3 that by not trying to be entirely like the original it can still be a good game.

It just isn't true though. People will buy an Oblivion-with-guns game

That should be the key advertising point.

Game reviewer X: "It's Oblivion with guns, highly recommended!"

However, I don't think it'll be a smash hit either. Moderately succesful, yes, but not a blockbuster.

Wait and see? Speculating on games sales at such an early stage without a playable demo available to the public is a tad silly.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Well bethesda had to rethink original game concept when they they started doing the IP in 3D. Different perspective, different gameplay

 

[Tagaziel]

I approve of this product and or event.

I can giver you a free trial if you want.

I really do think it's just an impossible thing to wish for unless it's made by the original team. We've all seen sequels made by teams other than the original before and they fail to live up to the original. I'd hope with Fallout 3 that by not trying to be entirely like the original it can still be a good game.

Well, Van Buren was shaping up to be a good, coherent and well planned sequel to Fallout, retaining it's atmosphere and expanding on the backstory and storyline of previous Fallouts. It didn't aim to be exactly like Fallout, it aimed to be a continuation of it.

That should be the key advertising point.

Game reviewer X: "It's Oblivion with guns, highly recommended!"

Heh, no better way to lose sales.

Wait and see? Speculating on games sales at such an early stage without a playable demo available to the public is a tad silly.

Seeing how it isn't a new studio developing a new game in a completely new franchise, I don't think what you say is true.

 

[Kyorisu]

Heh, no better way to lose sales.

That was a joke and I know far better ways to loose sales.

Seeing how it isn't a new studio developing a new game in a completely new franchise, I don't think what you say is true.

Regardless you still cannot predict sales figures at this time.

 

[Tagaziel]

That was a joke and I know far better ways to loose sales.

Like get the game an AO rating.

Regardless you still cannot predict sales figures at this time.

But we can say what the likely trend will be.

 

[Kyorisu]

Like get the game an AO rating.

Ding ding ding, that would automatically get it booted from the Aussie market for one.

But we can say what the likely trend will be.

Doing so would rely on the information we have about the product now. A problem arises because we don't know all the information, we don't know of any advertising campaigns, we don't know how public relations will change over time before release, we don't know a lot of things. I'm speaking broadly here but you get the idea. I really hate speculation. Leave it to be bean counters that work for Beth's publisher. As consumers the sales potential of the product shouldn't matter to us at all anyway.