FGM or seriously messed up shit

[jverne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

In a study of infibulation in the Horn of Africa, Pieters observed that the procedure involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora. The labia majora are then held together using thorns or stitching. In some cases the girl's legs have been tied together for two to six weeks, to prevent her from moving and to allow the healing of the two sides of the vulva. Nothing remains but the walls of flesh from the pubis down to the anus, with the exception of an opening at the inferior portion of the vulva to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass through; see Diagram 1D. Generally, a practitioner recognized as having the necessary skill carries out this procedure, and a local anesthetic is used. However, when carried out "in the bush," infibulation is often performed by an elderly matron or midwife of the village, with no anesthesia used.

come on! of course i knew about female genital mutilation, but i didn't know it is CATEGORIZED!!??

i have a better categorization proposal.

Type I: people who made up this shit/practice it/condone it should be beaten up and thrown in jail

Type II: people who made up this shit/practice it/condone it should be stripped naked and thrown in the middle of the african bush (let them enjoy some animal company) and if they survive...thrown in jail

Type III: people who made up this shit/practice it/condone it should be stripped naked, given a map of Antartica and thrown out in the middle of the Sahara. (for irony sakes)

Type IV: mixture of the above


either that classification or:

Type I,II,III,IV: why the **** is this even categorized??? all of these acts are barbaric and should never be condoned by anyone. categorizing them seems to me like they have some legal value.

 

[<RJMC>]

why dont you go yourself to somalia and tell them that?

 

[jverne]

why dont you go yourself to somalia and tell them that?

cause they'll probably cut my penis off, damn primitives (by primitives i mean those who condone this shit).

 

[VirusType2]

It's a part of their culture.

Years ago there was a guy I worked with who was from Africa (really nice guy and pretty cool BTW) and he said that boys get circumcised as a ritual to signify their becoming of a man.

I've seen tribes of people that walk on fire, stuff all of their clothes with thousands of venomous ants, stick wood and metal through their ears and nose, lengthen their necks using braces as they grow, growing up with their feet in small shoes to force their feet to remain smaller, etc.

It is their choice to do what they want with their bodies, no?

It's no different than something like ear piercing, tattoos, or other things like that, but we are just used to that.

 

[Raziaar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ6rFKhyn0



To be honest, I have a complete double standard with things like this. I have considerably less issue with tribal peoples practicing what they do as they have for hundreds or thousands of years, while still remaining for the most part in their culturally intact tribal environment.

That, contrasted with my less accepting view of people who take these sorts of things and apply them to children who live in our modern civilized world, when everything else in their lives is completely removed from their original cultural environs.

I dunno. It's just a double standard I have. I don't feel like I need to thrust myself in the lives of these tribal people doing what they do, compared to how I feel about say... genital mutilation coming to the United States and being practiced there where I would surely fight it.

 

[jverne]

It's a part of their culture.

Years ago there was a guy I worked with who was from Africa (really nice guy and pretty cool BTW) and he said that boys get circumcised as a ritual and part of becoming a man.

I've seen tribes of people that walk on fire, stuff all of their clothes with thousands of venomous ants, stick wood and metal through their ears and nose, lengthen their necks using braces as they grow, growing up with their feet in small shoes to force their feet to remain smaller, etc.

It is their choice to do what they want with their bodies, no?

i.e. primitive cultures?

from a moral point i take "human rights" as a basis of evaluating any culture. sure ours is not that great, but compared to forceful mutilation for no medical or other valid reason it's ****ing light years away from those.

 

[Warped]

I'm sure they'd say something similar about the rest of the world drinking large amount of alcohol, snorting coke, shooting Heroin, and ****ing people with AIDS. every country/culture has something taboo that the other countries can't stand but i guess thats what makes everyone unique

 

[jverne]

I'm sure they'd say something similar about the rest of the world drinking large amount of alcohol, snorting coke, shooting Heroin, and ****ing people with AIDS. every country/culture has something taboo that the other countries can't stand but i guess thats what makes everyone unique

i take consensual alcohol drinking to being forcibly mutilated any day!!

 

[Maestro]

So?

Your Values != Their Values

 

[jverne]

So?

Your Values != Their Values

since there are no absolute universal moral values i'll restrain myself from using the > symbol.

but if there's anything common to most organisms is the avoidance of pain, physical or psychological. this is what i build upon, and guess what? primitive cultures normally fail at meeting this criteria.

 

[Krynn72]

So wait, does this result in a smooth mound of flesh where the vagina used to be?

I havent seen any pics of this on the internet, so im calling bullshit. According to that chart on there, theres almost an eighth of the continent with 95-100% of the female population had it done. Thats bullshit. There would be nobody left in those areas.

 

[jverne]

So wait, does this result in a smooth mound of flesh where the vagina used to be?

I havent seen any pics of this on the internet, so im calling bullshit. According to that chart on there, theres almost an eighth of the continent with 95-100% of the female population had it done. Thats bullshit. There would be nobody left in those areas.

i won't argue the statistics, but FGM doesn't necessarily mean infertility, or am i mistaken?

 

[Baal]

So wait, does this result in a smooth mound of flesh where the vagina used to be?

I havent seen any pics of this on the internet, so im calling bullshit. According to that chart on there, theres almost an eighth of the continent with 95-100% of the female population had it done. Thats bullshit. There would be nobody left in those areas.

My understanding is that the hole is still there, it's just that in most cases the women do not enjoy intercourse at all, and usually it is painful.

 

[Raziaar]

since there are no absolute universal moral values i'll restrain myself from using the > symbol.

but if there's anything common to most organisms is the avoidance of pain, physical or psychological. this is what i build upon, and guess what? primitive cultures normally fail at meeting this criteria.

A lot of the pain stuff tribal cultures do, like the bullet ant thing in the video I provided, is about bettering themselves in their own eyes.

 

[Maestro]

since there are no absolute universal moral values i'll restrain myself from using the > symbol.

So by your own logic your argument of being 'light-years ahead' is invalidated.

Stop trying to judge a culture that, at its base level, is nothing like yours.

 

[jverne]

So by your own logic your argument of being 'light-years ahead' is invalidated.

Stop trying to judge a culture that, at its base level, is nothing like yours.

well yeah...i did contradicted myself there. one thing is what my rational mind says and the other what my emotions tell me. so yeah i have no explanation, it all comes down whether we'd agreed to some common reference point.

 

[kineaesth]

It is their choice to do what they want with their bodies, no?

Technically yes. But realistically, that's a terrible view to take of this suject. Young girls don't choose for this to happen to them. They don't want or need it. It is mutilation; mutilation born from a cultural history of violence and oppression of women. My point being that it's not okay. Not even as a cultural tradition. It's cruel, unnecessary, and has a variety of possible negative effects on health.

My understanding is that the hole is still there, it's just that in most cases the women do not enjoy intercourse at all, and usually it is painful.

That's right. It's also in some ways to ensure a woman's virginity. Depending on the type of circumcision, of course.

 

[PvtRyan]

However, when carried out "in the bush,"

One could argue that genital mutilation is always carried out "in the bush". Badumtish. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Also, the cultural relativists here can go choke on a dick.

 

[Raziaar]

One could argue that genital mutilation is always carried out "in the bush". Badumtish. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Haha... oh man. That's terrible.

 

[Eejit]

Ugh, at least there's one form of multilating a child's genitalia which isn't considered acceptable in the West.

 

[jverne]

harsh cultural practices that actually have some useful effect...i could try to understand. but doing something that terrible and irreversible to someone because you want them not to feel pleasure i really have a hard time understanding.

 

[Maestro]

Also, the cultural relativists here can go choke on a dick.

I'm not a moral relativist, I consider everything relative. Including truth.

So choke on a dick.:|

 

[Stigmata]

Female genital mutilation is mutilation relative to a natural and complete human body.

How's that for relativism?

 

[Operational]

Far too much, "it's just their culture, man" in this thread. While I try to keep an open mind when it comes to values, cultures and traditions that are not my own in cases as clear cut as this (err no pun intended) where the rights of women are horribly low I am willing to say that our values and morals > thiers.

 

[VirusType2]

ITT: The white knights ride again.

Nowhere did I read that this practice was forced. There was no link to the article, but I believe it is a part of their culture due to what I've heard about male circumcision in Africa. So, I believe the girls/women do this voluntarily. Therefore, I stand by what I said: their body, their rights. If they do it willingly, then it isn't a human rights problem.

Besides, in America at least, male circumcision is very common. A first world country doing the same thing. This is performed on newborns with their parents consent. Now this is something I could understand people being against, since obviously the decision is made for the child.

While at least in Africa, I as I understand it, it is not practice for children, it is a decision made by the person when they become an adult. Therefore, eat cock.

 

[kineaesth]

ITT: The white knights ride again.

:/ Because concern about people is TOTALLY white knight-ery

Nowhere did I read that this practice was forced. There was no link to the article, but I believe it is a part of their culture due to what I've heard about male circumcision in Africa. So, I believe the girls/women do this voluntarily. Therefore, I stand by what I said: their body, their rights. If they do it willingly, then it isn't a human rights problem.

A false assumption. Usually this happens to girls approaching adolescence, in an attempt to curb their sexuality and ensure they retain their virginity until marriage. Often they are taken to a local woman who performs it on them.

While at least in Africa, I as I understand it, it is not practice for children, it is a decision made by the person when they become an adult. Therefore, eat cock.

While it might be a decision occasionally made by adults (which begs the question as to why), it is forcibly done to young girls.

Even if it was hypothetically voluntary, do you think any informed person would choose this? Much like male circumcision, if it's due to the pressures of the society they live in, it's not really a choice. And even if it was a totally lucid choice, it's still a violent, unsafe practice that the world could do without.

The practice is mostly carried out by traditional circumcisers, who often play other central roles in communities, such as attending childbirths.

...

It is nearly always carried out on minors and is a violation of the rights of children.

...

Procedures are mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15, and occasionally on adult women. In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.

 

[Acepilotf14]

I saw this on the discovery channel.

It's forced, especially in tribes, once the girl reaches.. ether 10 or 13, maybe 16 or something, I forget. Lots of 'traditionalist' parents in the West have been known to do this too.

There is a LOT of trauma from this. Typically, they're kidnapped at night, brought to some hut with an old guy and a knife, and they just cut it right out. Ouch. No say, since women in non-modern societies HAVE NO SAY.

It's done so that the woman can no longer feel pleasure; that way, they aren't as susceptible to sex, and that African societies are VERY male-dominated, to the extent that they believe Women shouldn't feel pleasure at all. It's biased, sexist, and cruel all at the same time.

 

[xcellerate]

Stop trying to judge a culture that, at its base level, is nothing like yours.

While I agree we shouldn't judge, I can't help but wonder how they can look at the rest of the world and go, "yea, we're totally the one's who are normal."

 

[Polaris]

Quote from Phillip Pullman:

For all its history... it's tried to suppress and control every natural impulse. And when it can't control them, it cuts them out.... They cut out the sexual organs.... and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling.

This is not only about some African tribal culture, force behind this is indeed religion, Islam's hate and violence against women.

 

[Viperidae]

Quote from Phillip Pullman:

That quote mainly focuses on the institution of Church. I don't think tribes count.

Pullman admitted in interviews that he doesn't have anything particularly against the real institution, and that his portrayal of it in the books is highly exaggerated.

 

[Rizzo]

Probably worth mentioning that they are black.

 

[Danimal]

And blue.

A bit pink, and pretty red.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Probably worth mentioning that they are black.

What are yah, some kinda racist?

 

[Remus]

It's also worth mentioning that they are black primitives.

 

[Rizzo]

What are you? Some kinda ****** lover?

Spoiler

It says Burrito

 

[Danimal]

It's worth mentioning those Burritos are microwaved.

 

[Acepilotf14]

I do like a burrito now and then.

edit; microwaved? **** that.

 

[Danimal]

As ****ed as FGM, I deem it quite relevant to the thread's interests.