Flashlight fixed/improved in HL2?

[oopsmaster]

I've tried searching around for the answer to this, but haven't seen anyone mention this issue yet. I honestly don't remember reading anything about this in any article or interview either....

Does anyone know if the flashlight is implemented better in HL2? One really annoying thing you get in games like HL and AvP is the super-narrow flashlight beam that illuminates absolutely nothing except that tiny spot you shine it on. This gives a very claustrophobic and frustrating effect in a dark room.

On top of that, the light doesn't shine on to the background if it is partially stopped by an object. Shining the light on half a box, for example, will make it so that nothing behind the box is lit up (at least, that's the way I remember it...).

I'm guessing that this will be fixed, but just wanted to know if anyone heard something solid about this.

 

[XenoSpirit]

I've tried searching around for the answer to this, but haven't seen anyone mention this issue yet. I honestly don't remember reading anything about this in any article or interview either....

Does anyone know if the flashlight is implemented better in HL2? One really annoying thing you get in games like HL and AvP is the super-narrow flashlight beam that illuminates absolutely nothing except that tiny spot you shine it on. This gives a very claustrophobic and frustrating effect in a dark room.

On top of that, the light doesn't shine on to the background if it is partially stopped by an object. Shining the light on half a box, for example, will make it so that nothing behind the box is lit up (at least, that's the way I remember it...).

I'm guessing that this will be fixed, but just wanted to know if anyone heard something solid about this.

its probly guna be fixed

 

[Rupertvdb]

well with a dynamic lighting system that we shall be seeing in HL2 then i really doubt the flashlight is going to be wank.

I think they do mean to have it scary in dark rooms in the games you mentioned but with regards the stopping light i figure that the engine should be able to work out exactly whats lit and when.

 

[Wesisapie]

Project Eden had a pretty good flashlight (and was a pretty cool game too).

 

[moppe]

In a email I read (valve info thread) it states that the flashlight will bounce off light reflecting surfaces like a mirror or polished steel.

 

[Novar]

If you watch the "wall.mpeg" video that got released some time ago (the one where the guy makes the wall out of 1 polygon) the guy playing turns on the flashlight and shines it on the cave wall and it looks pretty good.

 

[Sparta]

hmmm......where may i find this wall.mpeg ?

 

[Rupertvdb]

yeah? post a link i haven't heard of that

 

[OCybrManO]

I'm not sure if that addresses the problems being discussed in this thread... but it's been a while since I watched it.

 

[Skull]

I'm quite sure you can find it on www.fileplanet.com
just do a search for half-life 2

 

[Novar]

http://files.filefront.com/963105

Im pretty sure thats the same one but it has a slightly different name.

 

[Sprafa]

it's not dynamic lighting, it's HDR (high-dymanic range rendering). If I'm not mistaken, HDR is too heavy for real-time.
So no flahlights at all.

 

[ray_MAN]

Yes, flashlights. it was in the video they called "Wall". As far as I know, HL2 does not have dynamic lighting or any fancy lighting what-so-ever. They have nice lights and shadows. DooM has nice shit though. Nice lights. I bet you it has a flshlight.

 

[Axyon]

Splinter Cell: PT Multiplayer implements the flashlight well, looks very good with the projected shadows.

 

[The Dark Elf]

HL2 DOES have dynamics lights. and the flashlight has feck all to do with HDR

 

[Sprafa]

ahh..well just watched the "wall" vid. In fact, there is dynamic lighting.

now I've read WTF is HDR I understand why.... the example is - you have the Sun aside a candel. In not HDR, a candle and the Sun are equal in luminosity, kase there's a limit that you put in for fire and pure light. in the true world this is not true. HDR proporcionates that - Sun 1 000 000 000 more luminous than the candle.

 

[Spiffae]

sprafa - you are correct about what HDR is, just not when it is used.. HDR is not a constant lighting system, it is only used from time to time, for example when the sun is in the scene. throughout most of the game, you'll be seing regular lightmaps and dynamic lighting, just like you'd see in most games today.

 

[Sprafa]

sprafa - you are correct about what HDR is, just not when it is used.. HDR is not a constant lighting system, it is only used from time to time, for example when the sun is in the scene. throughout most of the game, you'll be seing regular lightmaps and dynamic lighting, just like you'd see in most games today.

I got that from the definition of HDR...thx anyway Spiffae.

 

[Apos]

It's currently not clear whether the flashlight will actually cast dynamic shadows, like in Doom3, and chances are, it won't. HL2 supports that kind of shadowing, but it very rarely does it dynamically because the performance hit is too crippling to all the other things they want to do. But the flashlight will most definately:

1) work like a real lightsource in multiplayer (i.e., no more glowing players instead of flashlight beams)
2) fall on all surfaces it's pointed at (i.e. solves the problem the OP is talking about)
3) affect normal maps, giving it the feel of depth and shadow even if it doesn't cast full shadows

 

[Lobster]

ok so they loose a few shaddows, considering all the fresnel and refraction effects you get on some of those sweet shaders, the smooth animation system and of course the physics system, full dynamic lighting is a tremendous drain on resources, if u use it, u have to be prepared to have it in ur players face 24 / 7, such as Doom3 (where it works well), half-lifes gameplay is focusing on other things, so it just doesnt need to waste the cpu power, if u see what i mean.

 

[Varsity]

If you watch the wall video, the fl is shone on a bumpmapped wall with proper ray tracing. It doesn't show it over actual polygons, though.

 

[BuddMan]

Of course there is dynamic lighting in HL2. Any DX7 game has dynamic lighting...seesh. And HDR might be a problem for NV3x since it requires PS 2.0 to work properly (it would work on PS 1.1, but you would see terrible banding), but it shouldn't be a problem for an ATI 9700 or above, so "real-time" rendering won't be a problem at all at least with ATI. NV40 has improved shader performance as well, so HDR shouldn't be a problem with it if nVidia fixed their PS 2.0 problems. One game I wished we could have seen HDR in is FarCry...disappointing it doesn't use it. I don't know of any game that currently uses HDR lighting effects, so HL2 could very well be the first one.

 

[Apos]

Nope, it indeed seems like a good tradeoff. Keep in mind that HL2 objects and characters will have static shadows and light cast on them in realistic ways: it isn't just a matter of keeping the old HL system of entire models or objects lighting up or anything like that. If you watch the lab video, the way the light moves across Alyx and Kliener is very realistic, and even does things that Doom3's focus on shadows alone does not.

 

[Varsity]

But on the other hand, when you watch the strider moves the tram is either completely lit or completely in shadow. I guess that will be fixed though.

 

[BuddMan]

If you watch the lab video, the way the light moves across Alyx and Kliener is very realistic, and even does things that Doom3's focus on shadows alone does not.

What do you mean by that statement?? HL2 uses precaculated light maps for the lighting of the environments combined with simple dynamic lighting effects to make shadows move, etc - something any DX7+ game can do (what most games do). Doom 3 uses perpixel lighting with stencil shadows - again, nothing really that fancy, but no game except for maybe Deus Ex 2 (not completely sure) uses this method of lighting. The reason it hasn't been done yet is simply because there hasn't been a consumer video card capable of handling this until recently. In short - Doom 3's lighting system is way more advanced than HL2's.

EDIT: To put this in simpler terms, Doom 3's lighting is totally dynamic meaning there are no predetermined lightmaps. HL2 from what I understand still uses perdetermined lightmaps, just like HL1 did. I could be wrong about that as things could have changed since the last E3, and I guess we'll have to wait and see what this year's E3 will show us. But I doubt they went the "Doom 3" direction with their lighting system.

 

[Letters]

Splinter Cell: PT Multiplayer implements the flashlight well, looks very good with the projected shadows.

Let's just hope Half-Life 2's lighting doesn't hurt performance as much...

 

[Asus]

D3's dynamic real-time lighting in use isn't that much different from HL2's precalculated dynamic lights.
It's not a visable difference for the end user. It is a feature for the developer to use and understand more, I would think.

IMO That's like "In this game the cars driving will beable to move feely but the parked cars are glued to the ground. But in this game none of the cars are glued to the ground."
Does it really mater if those parked cars are glued to the ground?
Those shadows that will never change because that light mounted on the wall wont change the shadow. If you had a swinging light then that would show dynamic light on top of the other static shadows in the room (E.I. Farcry).

I think HDR is a bigger impact that Realtime lighting.
I'm gonna steal a link from Nvidia.
Link

 

[Axyon]

Let's just hope Half-Life 2's lighting doesn't hurt performance as much...

Yeah, although I scratch Pandora Tomorrow up to a bad Xbox conversion job.

 

[PvtRyan]

Nope, it indeed seems like a good tradeoff. Keep in mind that HL2 objects and characters will have static shadows and light cast on them in realistic ways: it isn't just a matter of keeping the old HL system of entire models or objects lighting up or anything like that. If you watch the lab video, the way the light moves across Alyx and Kliener is very realistic, and even does things that Doom3's focus on shadows alone does not.

Yeah the subtle lighting is pretty good looking (see attachment).
But as far as I know, there's a single 'ambient' light in the map, that determines which way the shadows of all characters faces, and the shadow is not affected by other lightsources in the map.

 

[Apos]

What do you mean by that statement??

I mean that moveable objects are lit per-pixel. Light and shadow can slide across them realistically in a way that is absolutely nothing like the way HL1-type lightmaps work.

HL2 uses precaculated light maps for the lighting of the environments combined with simple dynamic lighting effects to make shadows move, etc - something any DX7+ game can do (what most games do). Doom 3 uses perpixel lighting with stencil shadows - again, nothing really that fancy, but no game except for maybe Deus Ex 2 (not completely sure) uses this method of lighting.

DeusEx2, Pandora Tommorow, etc. all use a verison of this.

The reason it hasn't been done yet is simply because there hasn't been a consumer video card capable of handling this until recently.

Doom3 will be playable on cards that existed two years ago, albiet at 680x480 with a lot of the detail turned down. But yes, it's a performance hog.

In short - Doom 3's lighting system is way more advanced than HL2's.

Nope, it just focuses on one feature above all others. There are tons of different directions to take lighting detail. HDR is one direction. Full unified lighting is another. None is really more "advanced" than any other. None really . I'd say that the Unreal3 vids we've seen are the first example of "bringing it all together." to be distinctly more advanced in every way. But then, I'm sure id and Valve will have updated technology by 2006 as well.

EDIT: To put this in simpler terms, Doom 3's lighting is totally dynamic meaning there are no predetermined lightmaps.

Yep.

HL2 from what I understand still uses perdetermined lightmaps, just like HL1 did.

They use a mix of both: lightmaps for static world geometry, more dynamic systems for moving objects.

 

[Apos]

But as far as I know, there's a single 'ambient' light in the map, that determines which way the shadows of all characters faces, and the shadow is not affected by other lightsources in the map.

Watch the lab video again. See how the beams of light "slide" over Kliener's balding noggin as he turns to mess with the computer? Watch traptown again: see how the light "slides" over the manipulator as the character walks from a lighter area into shadow?

 

[BuddMan]

Nope, it just focuses on one feature above all others. There are tons of different directions to take lighting detail. HDR is one direction. Full unified lighting is another. None is really more "advanced" than any other. None really . I'd say that the Unreal3 vids we've seen are the first example of "bringing it all together." to be distinctly more advanced in every way. But then, I'm sure id and Valve will have updated technology by 2006 as well.

Well, by more "advanced" I mean they are going away from the norm - the norm being that most games use predetermined light maps and then some dynamic lighting. But at the same time I agree and even said it wasn't anything fancy or new.

They use a mix of both: lightmaps for static world geometry, more dynamic systems for moving objects.

Exactly, like every game has done since DX7, so nothing new really. I'm not saying HL2's lighting effects are less "advanced" than Doom 3's, I'm saying their lighting system is not as advanced (aka lighting "engine" if you could call it that). HDR is something I would definately consider over a fully dynamic lighting system (if you had to make a trade off), but it's a PS effect. I think Doom 3 will be able to use it as well. (BTW, Does anyone know if Doom 3 will use HDR?)

Edit: Made some words bold.

 

[PvtRyan]

Watch the lab video again. See how the beams of light "slide" over Kliener's balding noggin as he turns to mess with the computer? Watch traptown again: see how the light "slides" over the manipulator as the character walks from a lighter area into shadow?

Yeah I mean something else I think, let me show you with a pic:

Light 1: the 'ambient light'
Light 2: a scene light
Blue dots: objects/players
Red lines: shadows

You can see only light 1 casts shadows on the objects. The scene light doesn't affect those shadows.
I'm not sure, I think this was how it was done in HL2. You will still see lighting on the characters from scene lights, just no shadows cast in the right direction according to the scene light.

 

[Spiffae]

Don't forget radiosity... this is a much more realistic lighting calculation than pure lightmaps, when it comes to lighting entities. read the GDC PDF from ATI for more examples of what radiosity can do... that's why you see such realistic soft lighting on alyx in that vid... it's something that D3 simply does not have. all of D3 looks like it's shot on a set for a made-for-TV movie -- that's because every light is a spotlight, in terms of how it shines and casts shadows. It makes for a great horror atmosphere, but it doesn't make for everyday realism.

 

[Spiffae]

You will still see lighting on the characters from scene lights, just no shadows cast in the right direction according to the scene light.

Which I'd say is pretty realistic. look at yourself now, sitting in your chair. chances are, there's one light source casting shadows, be it a window, a lamp, whatever. there are other, secondary sources all around you (reflected light, the monitor, etc.) that are illuminating you, but not casting shadows.

i think that's what HL2 has approximated, and i think it's as close to reality as we've gotten in terms of real-time lighting.

 

[Lobster]

When im acctully gonna be playing the game, being moved at a steady pace by events around me, making decisions on how to get past the next obstacle, i am not gonna stop playing to sit there and count shaddows, and in multiplayer things move even faster, its just not one of those things that sells a game experience to me.

(Personal Opinion)

 

[Pseudonym_]

Some of the stuff you guys come up with about Doom³ is rediculous.

OFCOURSE every pixel on screen being lit by dynamic lighting where every light casts a shadow and every object casts a shadow, including on itself and other objects is more advanced than years old lightmap technology coupled with some models casting a simple projected shadow map on the ground, but not on other objects or on itself. Don't kid yourself.

The inferior lighting model will be the downfall of Source. Look at the new games coming out, Doom³, Thief3, and now the granddaddy on the horizon Unreal3, coupled with games already out like DE:IW and farcry, all excell in their use of lighting, their graphical prowess is in the way the engines light the world. And Source is no where near that level. Sorry, it just isn't. Sourc's rendering engine will have to be completely re-written to even try to compare. in a market where advanced lighting models are expected, no one will liscense Source. I predict maybe 5 games in total this year will decide to go with Source, but by that time is up Doom³ will be out and people will expect games to look as good or better from that point on. Developers will not liscense Source after that, it will be too dated within a year of hl2 being released.


To get back on topic. There is nothing particularly cool about the flashlight in hl2. One person said to watch the wall video because the flashlight looks so cool on normal mapped surfaces and what not, I don't see why. In the video look at the shadows on the wall, they dont dissapear with the addition of the new light source. Even when he shines the flashlight directly on a shadowed piece of the wall the shadow remains, there is nothing cool about that. Whats so cool about the "wall" video? To me it only hihglights Sources flaws even more.

 

[Apos]

Well, by more "advanced" I mean they are going away from the norm - the norm being that most games use predetermined light maps and then some dynamic lighting.

If what I mean by "pigs can fly" is that pigs wallow in the mud, I guess pigs can fly.

Exactly, like every game has done since DX7, so nothing new really.

No DX7 game's lighting looks like HL2's lighting.

I'm not saying HL2's lighting effects are less "advanced" than Doom 3's, I'm saying their lighting system is not as advanced (aka lighting "engine" if you could call it that).

This distinction doesn't exist. Both are effects, both are part of a complete lighting system.

HDR is something I would definately consider over a fully dynamic lighting system (if you had to make a trade off), but it's a PS effect. I think Doom 3 will be able to use it as well. (BTW, Does anyone know if Doom 3 will use HDR?)

No. OpenGl doesn't support it natively yet, and indeed doesn't really go over Dx8 level effects in general.

 

[Varsity]

There have been two confirmed lisences, and the engine isn't even finished yet. Lighting isn't everything - what Source is really focusing on is actual gameplay, which is quite revolutionary for an engine.

 

[Shuzer]

in a market where advanced lighting models are expected, no one will liscense Source.

Yet two companies (that we know of) have already licensed it and HL2's not even out :|