Global Warning Worriers... Say A-Men

[Sgt_Shellback]

An MIT meteorologist Wednesday dismissed alarmist fears about human induced global warming as nothing more than 'religious beliefs.'

"Do you believe in global warming? That is a religious question. So is the second part: Are you a skeptic or a believer?" said Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Richard Lindzen, in a speech to about 100 people at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.

"Essentially if whatever you are told is alleged to be supported by 'all scientists,' you don't have to understand [the issue] anymore. You simply go back to treating it as a matter of religious belief," Lindzen said. His speech was titled, "Climate Alarmism: The Misuse of 'Science'" and was sponsored by the free market George C. Marshall Institute. Lindzen is a professor at MIT's Department of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences.

Once a person becomes a believer of global warming, "you never have to defend this belief except to claim that you are supported by all scientists -- except for a handful of corrupted heretics," Lindzen added.

According to Lindzen, climate "alarmists" have been trying to push the idea that there is scientific consensus on dire climate change.

"With respect to science, the assumption behind the [alarmist] consensus is science is the source of authority and that authority increases with the number of scientists [who agree.] But science is not primarily a source of authority. It is a particularly effective approach of inquiry and analysis. Skepticism is essential to science -- consensus is foreign," Lindzen said.

Alarmist predictions of more hurricanes, the catastrophic rise in sea levels, the melting of the global poles and even the plunge into another ice age are not scientifically supported, Lindzen said.

"It leads to a situation where advocates want us to be afraid, when there is no basis for alarm. In response to the fear, they want us to do what they want," Lindzen said.

Recent reports of a melting polar ice cap were dismissed by Lindzen as an example of the media taking advantage of the public's "scientific illiteracy."

"The thing you have to remember about the Arctic is that it is an extremely variable part of the world," Lindzen said. "Although there is melting going [on] now, there has been a lot of melting that went on in the [19]30s and then there was freezing. So by isolating a section ... they are essentially taking people's ignorance of the past," he added.

A new perspective on global warming to consider.

 

[GhostFox]

There has always been a lot of dissention in the scientific community, although it is often ignored. One climatologist stated that there was universal support in the scientific world for Global Warming and its dire effects, and plenty of people were willing to believe her.

This is any other article like it will be dismissed by global warming activists, because like I have said before, people believe what they want to believe.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Yeah, I once believed that global warming was real, because you couldn't step two feet without hearing a news report about it, and some scientific talking head saying how the planet was doomed.

It was all full of crap though. There's probably four times more misinformation about 'global warming' then there was about the Iraq war when it started.

 

[Hot Soup]

Climate change is a fact nothing more nothing less.

 

[GhostFox]

Climate change is a fact nothing more nothing less.

Natural; yes. Man-made; no one really knows yet.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Climate change is a fact nothing more nothing less.

Point I've been arguing for years

 

[burner69]

Natural; yes. Man-made; no one really knows yet.

Agreed.

And regardless, the global warming issue tends to be used as a shock tactic ti get us to sort out our pollution levels. Whether it's warming the planet or not, pollution is no good thing - look at the rate of lung cancer in busy cities compared to small villages. If we need shock tactics to get us to sort out pollution, then let us use shock tactics, whether they're lies or not is irrelevent.

 

[Icarusintel]

do any of the people who talk about global warming actually look at the facts and opposing info? it might help, thanks for the article

 

[oldagerocker]

It is interesting that the government can change infromation or if not the gov. atleast the media. At the start of the iraq war most of us were in belief that Suddam was going to attack Britain, the US or anywhere via his own arsenal or terrorists at any time.... and was all misinformation.

Maybe the same is happening with the information on global warming, afterall, all we hear about is how the ice caps are melting and the dire effects this will have on our environment. I've personally not heard through media sources any information to the contrary. This states one of two things, that the scientific evidence shown is 100% fact with no argument against it or the media just arent reporting anything against it.

This is a bad thing, we are doomed either way, being dragged into this false sense of fear about our own planet and actions or the way we can be manupulated by the media as soon as they jump on some scientific theory bandwagon wihch may not even be entirely true.

The world is so huge, there's so many sinks of CO2 that its very inaccurate to predict the effects of anthropogenic changes and thier effects. I guess we'll see though...

 

[Icarusintel]

Has anyone else here read Michael Crichton's State of Fear? It's a great book on the topic and it's Crichton, so it's good period, he talks a lot about how all the contrary evidence is suppressed and supporting evidence is molded by the people supporting the research. And only some of the ice caps are melting, others are expanding

 

[gh0st]

"Please America, return to Kyoto! Please!"

 

[Icarusintel]

"Please America, return to Kyoto! Please!"

F*ck Kyoto, the Kyoto treaty solves nothing, it just looks nice on paper and appeases the nature freaks

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Yeah, kyoto is ironically a huge case of waste. So many billions of dollars spent on a cause that probably doesn't even exist.
The only reason it's so popular is that the general public think global warming's going to send us into "the day after tomorrow" or something.

Climate change does exist, but it's incredibly minor. It's also not global. Lots of places are getting colder, and lots are staying unchanged.

It's just another case of rushing in without all the facts.

 

[GhostFox]

The main problem with Kyoto is that it does not force meaningful change in pollutants. Every country has a target goal to reach, but pollution credits can be bought from other countries. So non-industrialized nations have no signifigant pollutants, so all Kyoto does is force industrialized nations to pay a little bit and they still pollute just as much.

Kyoto in reality has nothing to do with enviromental reform and has everything to do with forced charity to 3rd world countries. It is insane that any country signed onto this load of hogwash.

 

[Hot Soup]

It is utterly irrelevant whether it's natural or man made. At the very least current levels and past levels of pollution, cfc's , co2 output et al ahve all contributed to climate change , which is gathering apace.

Shrinking ice caps - fact
Shrinking glaciers in Europe , Iceland and Greenland - fact.

Increased sporadic weather - numerous storms , flash floods , heat waves killing thousands of people in France all fact.
How many hurricanes this season for the US ? 5 or 6 ? Again nothing less than fact.

I'm not going to argue industrial output the sole cause of warming we are in a post ice age bounce, the temp always rises. But never this fast. The simple fact is pollution needs to be lessened , deforestation of the amazon , places like thailand and indonesia continue apace. We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot before long,

So sure it may not be as bad as all that , like some doom mongers say but if we don't change things now I really do hate to think what will be in store for our grand childrens generation.

Kyoto - flawed - sure
Perfect - no

But it's a start and it's better than nothing. Should it be disregaurded because it's not perfect and have everyone going about willy nilly doing nowt - nope.

 

[jverne]

Yeah, kyoto is ironically a huge case of waste. So many billions of dollars spent on a cause that probably doesn't even exist.
The only reason it's so popular is that the general public think global warming's going to send us into "the day after tomorrow" or something.

Climate change does exist, but it's incredibly minor. It's also not global. Lots of places are getting colder, and lots are staying unchanged.

It's just another case of rushing in without all the facts.

where i live there wasn't any snow for lots of years now everything is all covered with it! it even snowed in sicily!!

i belive that the climate is changing the natural way, we are just helping it to change faster.

 

[Hot Soup]

Yeah there is natural peaks and troughs , especially between ice ages. But the conjecture is now we're going to go well past that point and lead to permanent damage

 

[Icarusintel]

Yeah there is natural peaks and troughs , especially between ice ages. But the conjecture is now we're going to go well past that point and lead to permanent damage

But really, we know too little about the world and what we're doing to make any kind of judgement, for instance some glaciers are expanding, go figure, and ice melting at the caps? big whoop it's been happening for a while, i think the major problem lies within the research, as our tools for research get "better" we can start to see more of the picture, right now it looks bad, but there have been warming trends in the past, and we're in one right now, but it didn't just start with man, it's part of a natural cycle that's been going on for years, the tools and research haven;t caught up with that yet, though
I'm more concerned about a coming ice age, because from scientific "research" we're about due, global warming doesn;t scare me, though, it's just something the yuppies can whine about to get pollution down, and while that's nice it doesn;t help third world countries industrialize, so it's got negative effects too

 

[Hot Soup]

I said that already ... yes it's a natural cycle but the levels of pollution we have now are doing nothing but heighten the problem. Obviously a solution has to be met that will let less developed countires become more developed.

What I'm saying is yes it didnt start with man, thats a no brainer but we're not doing ourselves any favours whatsoever.

 

[Icarusintel]

I said that already ... yes it's a natural cycle but the levels of pollution we have now are doing nothing but heighten the problem. Obviously a solution has to be met that will let less developed countires become more developed.

What I'm saying is yes it didnt start with man, thats a no brainer but we're not doing ourselves any favours whatsoever.

So long as it's not a problem in my lifetime it doesn't really matter to me, I'm kinda expecting nuclear armageddon before anything else, now that would really be mankind f*cking himself over, this little changing the environment crap is child's play compared to a nuclear holocaust, or global biological warfare, another great one
I say if you're gonna do something, you should do it right, let's go out with a bang, not a whimper

 

[Gray Fox]

Has anyone here any supporting evidance. I mean it's nice that this guy and michael ceishton say it isn't true, but where is their evidance, most of what I have seen is evidance that global change is occuring more rapidly becasue of us, almost all I have seen on TV is that the polar cap is melting that glaciers are getting smaller, Icarusintel give me a link where it says that some glaciers are getting bigger.
All I have seen is ignorance from the side here that doesn't believe global change is occuring more rapidly because of us, you find out one little thing that most of us have known for years, that klimat actually changes over time naturally, and wow you think everything about global warming is bs. None of you ever stop to think that our acceleration of it is the thing that is making it in to a global disaster, maybe if you actually listen to people explain why they think global warming is occuring you wouldn't be so confused, besides you do not have to be a brainiac to see that when you put unnaturaly amount of co2 in the atmosphere and cut down a lot of trees that transfer co2 in to o2 you are ****ing up the planet.

Secondly kyoto maybe flawed but it's certainly better than nothing at all, it is not just a charity in discuise, see global warming is a global problem, okay get that, GLOBAL, so if you instead pay a third wolrd country to invest in better and cleaner production means so that they can cut their emissions not only by how much they have to, but also with how much you would have to, you actually do help lower the emissions, second you invest in the country, so in other words you help the planet and you help the third wolrd country.

Thridly, rightwing religous fanatics trying to dismiss the people who beleive that global klimat change is occuring faster because of us, by saying that it's not sience but religion is rediculus and laughable.

 

[Icarusintel]

http://www.climateark.org/articles/2001/3rd/gesufind.htm
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSScience0110/04_glaciers-ap.html
there's a great one from the US, a couple years old but still valid as far as I know
http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm
http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Antarctic_Ice_Sheet.htm
possibly fanatic but discusses specific glaciers that are growing
http://omega.utu.fi/glaciers.html
some retreating, some expanding
http://www.imcool.com/articles/Enviro/Part3Man-madeHeat.htm
"Obviously, as the glaciers melted away, the sea level rise slowed. The rise has been about 5 inches in the last 100 years, with some scientists blaming the rise on the ocean bottom raising, since the largest glaciers were expanding in ice volume."
And I'm done for now, if you want more source all you need to do is google glaciers expanding, it's always nice to see some contrary evidence to all the "evidence" they pump out at us about global warming

 

[Sieg]

I just hope it doesen't happen in our lifetime......our our children's......if I had one

 

[Gray Fox]

http://www.climateark.org/articles/2001/3rd/gesufind.htm
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSScience0110/04_glaciers-ap.html
there's a great one from the US, a couple years old but still valid as far as I know
http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm
http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Antarctic_Ice_Sheet.htm
possibly fanatic but discusses specific glaciers that are growing
http://omega.utu.fi/glaciers.html
some retreating, some expanding
http://www.imcool.com/articles/Enviro/Part3Man-madeHeat.htm
"Obviously, as the glaciers melted away, the sea level rise slowed. The rise has been about 5 inches in the last 100 years, with some scientists blaming the rise on the ocean bottom raising, since the largest glaciers were expanding in ice volume."
And I'm done for now, if you want more source all you need to do is google glaciers expanding, it's always nice to see some contrary evidence to all the "evidence" they pump out at us about global warming

Thnx, now I do not need to find evidance for myself, anyway as you can see these links prove that the weather is getting extreemer which is what was predicted by the global warming hippies, becasue of teh curent changes and melting.

 

[CptStern]

So long as it's not a problem in my lifetime it doesn't really matter to me

that's pretty selfish of you ..oh and it WILL affect you ..it already has. Tokyo has oxygen vending machines! fgs, cant be outdoors without sunscreen, smog days almost outnumber clear days in summer, polar bears have toxic levels of mercury in their systems from contaminated water ..it's a freakin disaster ..a slow excrutiating one

 

[OCybrManO]

The only reason it's so popular is that the general public think global warming's going to send us into "the day after tomorrow" or something.

Well, if I thought it was going to send us directly to Saturday I think I would support it, too!

 

[clarky003]

So long as it's not a problem in my lifetime it doesn't really matter to me

I hope thats just youth talking

if you have children one day it will affect them, and it may affect you in your life time, infact If we are all in our late teens early twenties, theres a high chance we will see peak oil, and its eventual demise. Before then we will see tycoons burn more and more to keep up with increasing energy demand, and the thing is. the money their raking in wont be very valuable if the economy collapses at some stage because of energy shortages and gargantuan inflation prices, it doesnt appear as if we care.. it's more of a 'lets get as much out of it as we can in the now' motto (which is mental evidence of selfishness and egotisim that is out of hand), ultimately future generations could suffer, worst case cenario is always a possibility, if we keep telling ourselves in ignorance 'its all gonna be ok' nothing gets done, and our race will pay for it, when its too late.

 

[Icarusintel]

I hope thats just youth talking

if you have children one day it will affect them, and it may affect you in your life time, infact If we are all in our late teens early twenties, theres a high chance we will see peak oil, and its eventual demise. Before then we will see tycoons burn more and more to keep up with increasing energy demand, and the thing is. the money their raking in wont be very valuable if the economy collapses at some stage because of energy shortages and gargantuan inflation prices, it doesnt appear as if we care.. it's more of a 'lets get as much out of it as we can in the now' motto (which is mental evidence of selfishness and egotisim that is out of hand), ultimately future generations could suffer, worst case cenario is always a possibility, if we keep telling ourselves in ignorance 'its all gonna be ok' nothing gets done, and our race will pay for it, when its too late.

youth taking? sure, i'm young i guess, but I;ve thought things through, I'm no idiot, mankind has had his day on the earth, we've done more harm than good, highest on the food chain and all, maybe our run is up, and if so, well, fine, if we go the world has a chance to start over, and since we're the only ones who can really destroy ourselves we might as well do it, i just wonder where we went wrong
edit: CptStern: simply put i don;t want kids, and the air right here is fine, so, out of sight out of mind

 

[MjM]

You have to expect consequences of pumping crap into our atmosphere for the last 100 years. Its just no ones sure of what the consequences will be. Or how drastic they will be. But i think we have no reason to not take our pollution seriously, its only gonna reduce our standard of living, so what have we got to loose? Some economic productivity or growth? So be it.

 

[CptStern]

CptStern: simply put i don;t want kids, and the air right here is fine, so, out of sight out of mind

fine ..for my kids sake, try not to use up too much oxygen

 

[Icarusintel]

fine ..for my kids sake, try not to use up too much oxygen

i'll do my best, and i keep as much CO2 out of the atmosphere as I can, I eat at least one hamburger a day if not several and many other beef products, cows are the true enemy

 

[CptStern]

you're not helping here :dozey:

 

[GhostFox]

cows are the true enemy

I actually read a report on the enviromental impact of the methane released because of all the cattle ranching.

Apparently with their 3 stomachs and all, cows break wind an awful lot.

Anyway, I just found it funny.

 

[PvtRyan]

I actually read a report on the enviromental impact of the methane released because of all the cattle ranching.

Apparently with their 3 stomachs and all, cows break wind an awful lot.

Anyway, I just found it funny.

Methane is a much much more powerful greenhouse gas, and cattle is indeed a big exhaust problem funnily enough. Imagine how many cows there are on the world, billions?

OT: One thing I think is important, is that it's hard to trust anyone with global warming. And to be honest, what do the people who ring the alarm bell have to gain by it? I'm more worried about investigations who say it's nonsense, because petrol companies and the world industry in general have a lot to gain by that outcome. And investigations like that are sponsored too, not that it necessarily affects the objectivity, but still.

I don't know what to think, one the one hand this looks to be a normal natural cycle in which it has been going for millions of years, on the other hand, we may have given it a boost in intesity.

I know I'm screwed, being 8 meters below sea level on reclaimed land. There's been talk that our protection from the sea is not sufficient anymore for the coming future and in so many years the entire west part of the country could flood, to it's natural state again.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

That's exactly the problem, it could go either way. But the earth is at most going to get warmer by one degree in 1000 years, and the sea level isn't going anywhere.

Because there is no immediate concern, as far as i can tell, we have plenty of time to sit down and actually research this thing properly.

So instead spending billions of dollars on 'preventing global warming', I think it would be better to actually set up a good, quality scientific examination of climate, weather and so on.
Climate is so extremely complex that computer models have insufficient data by default. Those, and other guesses, have had a long history of being faulty.
What we need to do is actually understand climate before we start taking action against it. Otherwise, in the future, we may look as bad as the scientists who predicted that 1990 would be an ice age.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Hasnt anyone seen "Day after Tomorrow"? Jeesh it lays it all out right for us, global warming actually produces global freezing!

 

[azz0r]

Natural; yes. Man-made; no one really knows yet.

I dont think its a coincidence that the 100 years where the industrial revolution started and cars were invented is the same 100 years as the O-zone magically starts to get destroyed.

Lets face it, the weathers changed dramatically, ask any 40+ what christmas was like when they were a kid and compare it to todays kids responses.

 

[GhostFox]

Lets face it, the weathers changed dramatically, ask any 40+ what christmas was like when they were a kid and compare it to todays kids responses.

Weather patterns usually run on about a 50 year cycle, so your parents weather should be different then what you expirance.

Also, how do cars explain for examply the 13th century, which was much much warmer then the 20th?

I'm not saying climate change doesn't exist, but so far there are no definitive answers on it, so we can't really say if it does or does'nt.

 

[clarky003]

well, they measured a significant increase in freshwater introduced into the Atlantic conveyer, more pronounced changes over the time we have been pumping CO 2 into the air, there are factors that point clearly out , that we are having an influence.

 

[PvtRyan]

Hasnt anyone seen "Day after Tomorrow"? Jeesh it lays it all out right for us, global warming actually produces global freezing!

Never seen the movie, but it does actually. The melting icecaps will introduce lots of freshwater into the saltwater seas and that could disturb the Gulf Stream which feeds Europe with heat.