Holocaust denier jailed

Is his sentence justifiable?

  • No, he as the right to express his views.

    Votes: 53 85.5%

  • Yes, he has no right to express these views.

    Votes: 9 14.5%
  • Total voters
    62
baxter

baxter

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm

Historian David Irving has been jailed fro three years for denying the holocaust. This is a crime in many countries including France, Germany and Israel.

My gut reaction was "great" but upon refection I find I have a moral dilemma.

That being I believe in freedom of speech. So I would like to gage people’s views with a simple poll.

The poll is not whether you agree or disagree with his views but whether he has the right to express them.

Should he be allowed to express his views under the banner of freedom of speech or is his jail sentence justified?
 
the problem here, to me, is that it's something he denied back in 89 and has later changed his mind on(according to him)... so I think bringing it up now is living in the past and serves no good really...granted I don't know what exactly was said back then...but it seems silly.
 
Just because what he says is pretty much fundamentally abhorrent (not to mention stupid) does not give anybody the right to stop him from saying it. Outlawing the beliefs of extremist groups (a good example of this is the BNP) gives legitimacy to claims that Jews/Blacks/Lefties are in a conspiracy to shut them up.
 
but as a state you have to take responsibility to whats being said. I also have a moral dilemma, but if kids start believing this stupidity, then perhaps the state should protect them against it...
If he actually had valid points and mocked upon idiocy ( like the cartoons ), i'd say let him continue to say it ( as another opinion ).
In my country 2 laws contradict each other: freedom of speach and the law against racism...
The same arguments could be applied to that example..
(ps i voted no to jailing him, for all thats happening now is cartoon protestors are "fed" more arguments,.. they should have just publically humiliate him with facts)
 
As long as he wasn't inciting violence or inciting racial or religious hatred, then it's fine - but due to the controversial nature of his statements, he should backup his views with factual evidence though.
 
My gut reaction on this is disbelief and disgust over the fact that such a minor exercise in free speech could be punished in this way.

But now I've started to rationalize, and, while the prison sentence may be a little extreme, freedom of speech is not a universal right. While it may be an essential "right of man" for some, it is not an actual right in many areas of the world. Also, after seeing the destruction wrought by those comics of Mohammed, well, perhaps a little restriction isn;t so bad.
 
Icarusintel said:
My gut reaction on this is disbelief and disgust over the fact that such a minor exercise in free speech could be punished in this way.

But now I've started to rationalize, and, while the prison sentence may be a little extreme, freedom of speech is not a universal right. While it may be an essential "right of man" for some, it is not an actual right in many areas of the world. Also, after seeing the destruction wrought by those comics of Mohammed, well, perhaps a little restriction isn;t so bad.
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Exactly, yes, Freedom Of Speech is a right but some things just go too far and should be stopped.
 
What a total dickweed. And an idiot, too.

I am an Austrian official. Hmm, who's this entering our country? David Irving, the well-known holocaust denier! How odd. Well, since we have laws against denying the holocaust he'd better not be doing any holocaust denying! Wait, I wonder what he's doing here? Better keep tabs on him just in case.

Frankly the bastard deserves it just for being so ****ing stupid. But that's besides the point. I think free speech should win.

But then again I don't live in a country where neo-nazism is on the rise among young people. Bit of a sticky situation. :/
 
The state shouldn't limit free speech. That is the job of the citizenry.
The state shouldn't make a Nazi Speech illegal, that is the job of the citizens to prevent it.
 
If you're talking to me, I said he deserved it. Not that he actually should be put in prison.
 
Sulkdodds said:
If you're talking to me, I said he deserved it. Not that he actually should be put in prison.
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No, i was just commenting on the subject. Denying the Holocaust is just stupid, but 3 years in prison for it... :/
 
I believe in the freedom of speech.

But just not after speech.
 
Septih said:
No, i was just commenting on the subject. Denying the Holocaust is just stupid, but 3 years in prison for it... :/
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Fair enough. I agree, it is a bit much.
 
I think it's warrented if it's inciting hate/violence which does seem to be the case here at least on the surface:


The British author was sentenced to three years in an Austrian prison yesterday after pleading guilty to charges that stem from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989. He claimed that Anne Frank could not have written her famous diary, that Hitler never gave an order to exterminate the Jews and that Kristallnacht -- the infamous Nazi assault on synagogues around Germany in November, 1938 -- was carried out by "unknowns," not Nazi storm troopers. He also said that "Auschwitz is a legend, just like the Turin Shroud," and that the only proof for the Holocaust was the testimony of survivors who were "psychiatric cases."


but was it enough to convict him? I dont know, it's up to the austrain authorities to decide and they seem to have a strong enough case that he broke the law


also I cant help but feel there is something hypocritical in this in that I remember the harsh criticism when the president of Iran denied the holocaust. Freedom of speech didnt seem to matter in his case
 
Irving is a descredited acedemic who has persistantly denied the holocaust.

This is not a one off occurance.

I'm not sure if he should be jailed, but no-one will publish him these days.
 
I totally agree that he should be free to express his opinion, no matter how insane and ignorant it is. (Its a shame, though, that he wasted so much of his life and writing on such garbage that he now knows is totally wrong.)

That said, if speaking about this sort of nonsense is a crime in Austria, DON'T DO IT IN AUSTRIA! Fuggin' idiot.

And I can't imagine this would apply to the president of Iran because he doesn't have to worry about such laws in his country. Now if he said this in Germany or France or Poland, we might not have to worry about him for a few years! :thumbs:
 
CptStern said:
I think it's warrented if it's inciting hate/violence which does seem to be the case here at least on the surface:


The British author was sentenced to three years in an Austrian prison yesterday after pleading guilty to charges that stem from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989. He claimed that Anne Frank could not have written her famous diary, that Hitler never gave an order to exterminate the Jews and that Kristallnacht -- the infamous Nazi assault on synagogues around Germany in November, 1938 -- was carried out by "unknowns," not Nazi storm troopers. He also said that "Auschwitz is a legend, just like the Turin Shroud," and that the only proof for the Holocaust was the testimony of survivors who were "psychiatric cases."
Click to expand...

I dont think that it was inciting hate or violence at all. If he'd said what you've just posted above, and followed it up with something like 'therefore we must destroy all jews to preserve the white race' then that would be inciting violence. As it stands, he was just being an idiot, which shouldn't be illegal.
 
gick said:
I dont think that it was inciting hate or violence at all. If he'd said what you've just posted above, and followed it up with something like 'therefore we must destroy all jews to preserve the white race' then that would be inciting violence. As it stands, he was just being an idiot, which shouldn't be illegal.
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yes but he obviously broke some law ..and we cant go by what I posted because it's not the real deal ..a list of charges and maybe a quote from the actual speeches would shed some light on this issue ...but again we're judging it by laws that are relative to our countries ...In canada there's an ambigious fine line between incitement and hate rhetoric ..but that's not the case in the US (as an example) so I'm judging it by what's current in canada
 
VictimOfScience said:
And I can't imagine this would apply to the president of Iran because he doesn't have to worry about such laws in his country. Now if he said this in Germany or France or Poland, we might not have to worry about him for a few years! :thumbs:
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Diplomatic immunity?
 
gick said:
As it stands, he was just being an idiot, which shouldn't be illegal.
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However, that sort of idiocy (Holocaust Denial) does happen to be illegal in the following countries:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

Like Stern said, we are judging by our own country's standards where free speech is a right. And like I said, if its against the law in another country, don't do it in that country. Our laws don't apply everywhere we go on Earth. Once you set foot in another country, you are expected to abide by their laws. Its pretty simple actually, but I guess this guy is so dumb that he didn't realize this.

JellyWorld said:
Diplomatic immunity?
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At least we could get a little persona non grata going to keep him out of our country and limit his hateful rhetoric to countries that will put up with it. And depending on how heinous the offense, his rights might be waived by his country, though that might be intersting if he is the president of that nation. Let's hope he does something like that so we can see how it would play out! Let's see how well his diplomatic immunity protects him in Israel!
 
When over 50 million ppl die in Europe because of some ****face who hated jews and became territorial, its only logical there are laws that ban nazi's and holocaust deniers in these effected countries...
I agree with freedom of speech, but there are limitations, there have always been ( the line = presentation. "A joke?" or "are you serious?")

I can make a mocking cartoon about black ppl, yellow and white people = no problem.
If i write a "serious" book and in it claim foreigners destroy the country and should be terminated = illegal.
The difference is in the presentation. Making a racial/discriminating joke is tollerated, but in a serious media-form = not, because civilised countries wish to avoid/ban discrimination -> ban its source...
 
I don't think he should have been jailed. They should have made him attend a month-long class on the Holocaust or something to that effect. Maybe the guy needs some psychiatric treatment.
 
He knew it was illegal in that country (for good reason), yet he CHOSE to go to a foreign country and break THEIR rules. The people of that country (who their representatives represent) PLACED those rules there. I say he deserved it.
 
If you don't want fundamentalist views to increase then you can't turn people who have those views into victims.

Jailing him is amazingly moronic, his views are terrible but by jailing him you are only going to cause more trouble than simply ignoring would do.

When we agree to have things such as freedom of speech and democracy you can't pick and choose. These philosophies are not perfect and this is proof of that, but you have to accept that they are not perfect and move on. You can't sweep it under the rug like they are trying. When we agree to democracy and freedom of speech we to accept both the benefits and the problems that come with it.
 
I would equate Holocaust Denying to Hate Speech, especially when no sane evidence can be brought to your defense. I would think it is the same as stating that Jews are lower life forms that should be killed, and justify it that way.

But actually, I suppose it cannot be directly related to hate speech, so I wouldn't think that jailing would be justified.

You have to look at the countries in which this is illegal, though. I mean, some of those countries probably have problems with rising Neo-Nazism, and this is one way they think they can stop it. I mean, when crazy shit like this happens, it might be okay to take away a few natural rights.



All that aside, what I would actually do to this guy, is dig everything up on him and charge him for something unrelated. If he is denying the Holocaust, I'm sure you can find something. Maybe something related to hate speech. Its like what police officers do to teenages when they don't like them, even if they didn't actually break any laws.
 
satch919 said:
I don't think he should have been jailed. They should have made him attend a month-long class on the Holocaust or something to that effect. Maybe the guy needs some psychiatric treatment.
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He's a former respected acedemic. He used to have quite a few books published, he is, now however a disgrace.
 
No, you have the right to free speach, even if you are a f*cking idiot.
 
ríomhaire said:
No, you have the right to free speach, even if you are a f*cking idiot.
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Not if it's illegal

And no, the right to free speech is only granted in certain places, and most of those places put stipulations on certain things that cannot be discussed
 
Icarusintel said:
Not if it's illegal

And no, the right to free speech is only granted in certain places, and most of those places put stipulations on certain things that cannot be discussed
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In my own opinion, its against natural given human rights to not allow people freedom of speech.
 
Now, I believe in free speech as something that really has the ability to change the world and is usually a boon to anyone who enjoys it. However people similar to this man, in that same part of the world, and less than a century ago, were able to use such freedoms to create such a problem that it effected the ENTIRE PLANET. Now these laws may seem restrictive, but when its a choice between a small loss of freedom and something like WWII, then I'm not going to tell Austria, or any other country, that it can't make a law against it.
 
Erestheux said:
In my own opinion, its against natural given human rights to not allow people freedom of speech.
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While I agree with this statement, there is the very real fact that it is not true in many countries. I know everyone wishes that it was true, but it's not, and people need to accept that. It's not even completely free in countries where it is supposedly free. This is a simple fact.
 
He should have the right to free speech, I don't agree with him being jailed
 
I believe you can express your opinion, just don't blow it up like that. And keep away from subjects like that.
 
If denying it is a law, then he got what was coming to him. Its like if you go into a police station and yell out "I killed someone and the body is in my car."
 
He doesn't belong in jail. He deserves the wrath of a million angry Jews, not incarceration.
 
Dumb Dude said:
If denying it is a law, then he got what was coming to him. Its like if you go into a police station and yell out "I killed someone and the body is in my car."
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That is the worst analogy I have ever seen.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
That is the worst analogy I have ever seen.
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Yeah, I'm busting synapese left and right to see what he's talking about.

This man's punishment shouldn't be a jail term, but a one-way ticket to Tel Aviv with "THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED" painted on the back of his shirt. After the plane ride, the Austrian police kick him out into the middle of a busy street and wash their hands of him. WUNDERBAR!!

But seriously, free speech is something people actually have to believe in, even when its not convenient. This is one case where the charges are based on a bogus law.
 
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