In Case some of you may have forgotten, tomorrow is Monday.

[Barney Fife]

As you all know, Windows XP (The most popular and Gate's most successful OS) is on it's way out to make room for Vista. Tomorrow is 6/30/2008: The Date MS will discontinue shipping copies of XP to retail stores worldwide. You may still get what's left on the shelves or buy an inferior low budget XP preloaded system for the next few months, but once retailers inventory runs out, that's it.

MS will still continue to support XP for the next six years then XP will become obsolete. "If people won't give up what they love, we'll take it from them" is whats going on here. We will have to use Vista or "Vienna/Windows 7" whether we like or not.

Once a product becomes too successful, its bad for business.

Share your thoughts.

 

[Pesmerga]

Vista is a half step like Microsoft 2000. Windows 7 will be the real deal. I hope.

 

[CyberPitz]

People said 98 was gonna stop being supported, and you can't download the updates for it. You just have to browse to the old microsoft update link, and wam bam, 98 updates.

 

[Asus]

Vista is a half step like Microsoft 2000. Windows 7 will be the real deal. I hope.

Yeah. Although some seem to think of Vista as a half step sideways. Hopefully Win7 is forward.

 

[VirusType2]

In six years, a lot can change. But just because they won't create more updates and content for it doesn't mean it will stop working.

 

[giant384]

People said 98 was gonna stop being supported, and you can't download the updates for it. You just have to browse to the old microsoft update link, and wam bam, 98 updates.

not supporting it means nothing new will be released.....

 

[-Psy-]

They stopped support for Windows 98 two years ago I believe. 6 years is an awfully long time and I'm sure Windows 7 will be the most popular Windows OS by then.

 

[Blackthorn]

I've no problems with Vista, I've never run into a single issue, not one. And 6 years? That's plenty of time, by then whatever issues people had with Vista will be long since sorted, and 7 will be the standard. A few years after that we'll probably have a thread identical to this one, except XP will be Vista and Vista will be 7.

 

[Operational]

"If people won't give up what they love, we'll take it from them" is whats going on here.

Not it isn't. Windows 98 got 8 years of support, XP is going to end up with 13. No one really complained when 98 support ended in 2006, no one is going to complain when XPs support ends in 2014.
Software evolves, old software is obsoleted by new software that's the way things are for this industry and it doesn't just apply for Microsoft because the Apple and Linux OS's are the same way. It doesn't just apply to OS's either, most software evolves as the needs and abilities of modern computers (and their uses) change.

As for Vista there is no reason not to buy it when getting a new computer. I've been using it for about 6 months now, so far I haven't encountered a single thing that XP can do that Vista can't, it's more stable and there are many little features and interface improvements that I find really useful. Sure there were some driver issues when it first came out, but everyone should have known that was going to happen because XP started off the same way.

 

[CyberPitz]

not supporting it means nothing new will be released.....

Well, they tried to prevent you from downloading the 98 updates as well. When you go to Windows Update, it takes you to the 'new' location, which tells you there is nothing to install, as it's not a supported operating system anymore. You just have to put in the 'old' address, and you can download their updates.

I don't know why they would put a fake addy in there otherwise than they don't want you downloading the updates.

 

[Barney Fife]

Not it isn't. Windows 98 got 8 years of support, XP is going to end up with 13. No one really complained when 98 support ended in 2006, no one is going to complain when XPs support ends in 2014.
Software evolves, old software is obsoleted by new software that's the way things are for this industry and it doesn't just apply for Microsoft because the Apple and Linux OS's are the same way. It doesn't just apply to OS's either, most software evolves as the needs and abilities of modern computers (and their uses) change.

As for Vista there is no reason not to buy it when getting a new computer. I've been using it for about 6 months now, so far I haven't encountered a single thing that XP can do that Vista can't, it's more stable and there are many little features and interface improvements that I find really useful. Sure there were some driver issues when it first came out, but everyone should have known that was going to happen because XP started off the same way.

I understand that, but you missed my point, which is: I, for one am happy with XP and I have extremely no good reason to move onto another OS, which offers me no significant, better, more of anything now.
If you like to upgrade now, and start building or whoever's out there trying to buy and upgrade, we cannot use our current copy, single-pack XP as you know, (Unless we lie our way to legitimize it) we must buy new copy of XP, as of today, that option is gone; now we got one giant software company offering us one giant single software, which does not offer anymore than of anything before. Before you and I had two options: XP or Vista, now we have only one.
Sure people didn't mind 98 phase out in 2006, heck, I think we wanted 98 to leave us, by that time, we were well into XP and liking it, we didn't actually care about 98. Matter of fact, very few of us were using 98 at the time. Everything we used (Software and hardware) also preferred XP; for it's stability, better UI, security, and network infrastructure. XP was twice maybe three times better than 98: Installing simple driver was a trip in 98.
If I remember correctly, we demanded change from MS because none of us could stand the ever so many crashes, hangs, and BSOD, 98 did frequently: XP was Godsend.

We as the consumer should dictate what we like to use, not the other way around, and operating systems shouldn't be treated as fashion. I believe Vista should be an expansion pack to XP and the option to upgrade should always be ours, till something big comes around and outsells XP. Like others before said "Vista is a half step" and XP was standing in the way, so to boost Vista sales XP has to be taken out.

 

[99.vikram]

I have to say Vista was a massive disappointment. It's much touted security is only half-working, the DRM is scary, and it offers absolutely nothing that I can't get by tweaking XP and downloading some freeware. And DirectX10 was a massive joke (at Crytek's expense).

It's pathetic how little Microsoft managed to do in the years since XP (remember, this is their flagship product). If Apple products weren't such locked-in pieces of sh*t, I might even have considered switching to a Mac.

I hope for MS's sake they can get their act together in 2 years. Otherwise, Linux will have beaten the crap out of them.

 

[Barney Fife]

If Apple products weren't such locked-in pieces of sh*t, I might even have considered switching to a Mac.
I hope for MS's sake they can get their act together in 2 years. Otherwise, Linux will have beaten the crap out of them.

I couldn't agree more. Now is the best time for the underdogs to sneak-attack the sleeping giant.

 

[99.vikram]

Having a guy like Steve Ballmer in charge doesn't bode well for MS.

 

[No Limit]

Most OEMs including Dell, HP, and IBM will be providing you with a CD that will allow you to downgrade the Vista installation to an XP one when you first turn on your new computer. For some reason them installing the program on your computer for you is against the license agreement they singed with Microsoft, allowing you to do the downgrade yourself isn't.

 

[Asus]

If I was getting an OS for a PC it most likely would be XP (downgraded from Vista I guess). Only if I had 4gb of ram and wanted Vista 64bit would I pick Vista over XP tbh. XP is just safer, even if the big Vista driver issues have been fixed. Why else do you think companies are sticking with XP?

Win 2000 did require companies to redo a lot of software when moving from Win98. But it provided so much in stability and security that they didn't mind. XP can be just as good as Vista regarding security if you set it up right and don't login via admin. So the hassle and compatibility of Vista drivers can stick out like a sore thumb without any compensation.

And just like 2000->XP, Vista and Win7 are pretty similar. And by the time Win7 arrives compaines will have had time to write better drivers/apps for both. So I would think Win7 will be a much more compatible platform when entering the market than Vista was (not talking about bugs in the OS itself). By then Vista will be too but since Win7 will be the new thing that is what users and businesses will probably buy.

 

[Eejit]

If I was getting an OS for a PC it most likely would be XP (downgraded from Vista I guess). Only if I had 4gb of ram and wanted Vista 64bit would I pick Vista over XP tbh. XP is just safer, even if the big Vista driver issues have been fixed. Why else do you think companies are sticking with XP?

I'm sure inhouse software compatibility and upgrading the memory on bajillions of workstations may have something to do with it, as well as the costs of retraining staff?

 

[Barney Fife]

Most OEMs including Dell, HP, and IBM will be providing you with a CD that will allow you to downgrade the Vista installation to an XP one when you first turn on your new computer. For some reason them installing the program on your computer for you is against the license agreement they singed with Microsoft, allowing you to do the downgrade yourself isn't.

Yes in their low-budget lineup, and you must pay for both XP and Vista; They'll preload XP and send you Vista as a side-order. Or vise versa.

If I was getting an OS for a PC it most likely would be XP (downgraded from Vista I guess). Only if I had 4gb of ram and wanted Vista 64bit would I pick Vista over XP tbh. XP is just safer, even if the big Vista driver issues have been fixed. Why else do you think companies are sticking with XP?

Win 2000 did require companies to redo a lot of software when moving from Win98. But it provided so much in stability and security that they didn't mind. XP can be just as good as Vista regarding security if you set it up right and don't login via admin. So the hassle and compatibility of Vista drivers can stick out like a sore thumb without any compensation.

And just like 2000->XP, Vista and Win7 are pretty similar. And by the time Win7 arrives compaines will have had time to write better drivers/apps for both. So I would think Win7 will be a much more compatible platform when entering the market than Vista was (not talking about bugs in the OS itself). By then Vista will be too but since Win7 will be the new thing that is what users and businesses will probably buy.

Lol remember Winowds Me? Vista, How De Ja Vu of you.

 

[Asus]

Also, users like to stay with something they are comfortable with unless the newest thing provides a big boost. People stuck with Win98 through WinME and 2000. It wasn't until XP (or XP SP1) where people jumped from their safe platform (Win98) to the new thing.

I'm sure inhouse software compatibility and upgrading the memory on bajillions of workstations may have something to do with it, as well as the costs of retraining staff?

Yeah, it factors in. But going to Win2k/XP was like that as well but that didn't stop them then. The benefit that outweighs the cost is missing.

 

[No Limit]

Yes in their low-budget lineup, and you must pay for both XP and Vista; They'll preload XP and send you Vista as a side-order. Or vise versa.

That's not really true. I have not heard of an OEM that will charge for this. Legally according to the microsoft license agreement you have the right to downgrade to an earlier version of Windows using your XP key as long as the Vista version you purchased is the business or ultimate version.

If I was getting an OS for a PC it most likely would be XP (downgraded from Vista I guess). Only if I had 4gb of ram and wanted Vista 64bit would I pick Vista over XP tbh. XP is just safer, even if the big Vista driver issues have been fixed. Why else do you think companies are sticking with XP?

I just did a network installation where I had to upgrade 8 workstations to windows vista business, total ****ing nightmare. This morning all I wanted to do was isntall a printer on one of the workstations and I couldn't get the control panel to open on a fresh windows installation. Spent 2 hours on it on site and now I have to take it home and spend god knows how long to get it working.

I'm still debating on wether I should wait for the next release of windows or caugh it up and install Vista.

 

[Combine_Advisor]

i hate vista

 

[Barney Fife]

That's not really true. I have not heard of an OEM that will charge for this. Legally according to the microsoft license agreement you have the right to downgrade to an earlier version of Windows using your XP key as long as the Vista version you purchased is the business or ultimate version.

According to Technnewsworld.com:

However, after that date, users determined to avoid Vista will have to opt for Dell's XP downgrade option and pay for both XP as well as Vista. The hardware maker will install XP on the machine and send along a copy of Vista.

Read the complete article in the link of the original post: They will charge you for both OS. Vista as OEM and XP as stand alone OS and send you one of the OS in a CD. I don't know how exactly they're able to do that, but they are according to technewsworld.com.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

no one is going to complain when XPs support ends in 2014.

 

[Operational]

Before you and I had two options: XP or Vista, now we have only one.

And Apple doesn't sell Mac OS 9, only Mac OS 10. Why? Because Mac OS 10 superseded Mac OS 9 just as Vista superseded XP. It doesn't make sense to continually sell two products when one is a replacement of the other.

Sure people didn't mind 98 phase out in 2006, heck, I think we wanted 98 to leave us, by that time, we were well into XP and liking it, we didn't actually care about 98.

Going from XP to Vista might not have the huge obvious benefits as going from 98 to XP but it is the way of the future for Windows. I get the impression from this thread that most people go, "eww Vista, yay Windows 7", but Windows 7 at it's core is Vista, they'll even be using the same drivers.
I get that there is no compelling reason to upgrade to Vista, I know I didn't. But when getting a new PC I don't get why people (for home use) would downgrade to XP.

And DirectX10 was a massive joke (at Crytek's expense).

DirectX 10 hasn't had the room to shine yet due to companies being unwilling to spend the time coding for it due to the lack of Vista uptake. It's not the only Vista feature that has this problem.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I'm gonna try XP 64 bit. My friend who has almost an identical system to mine got a boost in a few newer games that I also have. He was also using x64 vista as I am at the moment. Depending on how things go, I might keep it just because I got a few new problems (probably fixable by system restore but w/e). Support is good.

 

[Barney Fife]

And Apple doesn't sell Mac OS 9, only Mac OS 10. Why? Because Mac OS 10 superseded Mac OS 9 just as Vista superseded XP. It doesn't make sense to continually sell two products when one is a replacement of the other.

You really think Vista sueprseded XP?

Going from XP to Vista might not have the huge obvious benefits as going from 98 to XP but it is the way of the future for Windows.

Somewhere up there I did mention Gates playing as fashion designer rather. We don't have to move on unless the benefit dictates it, which Vista failed to promise, and especially if where we are and what we have is just doing fine. I don't want to install Vista because its new and its got futuristic looks; I want to install it because it can supersede and offer more than I have. If that's the case, Gates would take his time discontinuing XP.

get the impression from this thread that most people go, "eww Vista, yay Windows 7", but Windows 7 at it's core is Vista, they'll even be using the same drivers.
I get that there is no compelling reason to upgrade to Vista, I know I didn't. But when getting a new PC I don't get why people (for home use) would downgrade to XP.

Remember XP was also based on Win2k. Why? Because of it's security features, stability and networking. And that's why we love it.
Vista is, another Windows Me; A disoriented Half-step OS.

DirectX 10 hasn't had the room to shine yet due to companies being unwilling to spend the time coding for it due to the lack of Vista uptake. It's not the only Vista feature that has this problem.

There, you just answered your own question.

 

[Saturos]

Vista is a half step like Microsoft 2000. Windows 7 will be the real deal. I hope.

Then that would make Windows Me a 1/3 step then. :thumbs:

Microsoft will continue full support for XP till 2009, then limited support till 2014, until eventually in 2015 or so, no support at all. (This is surely subject to change though knowing M$)

I'm gonna try XP 64 bit.

I though Microsoft dropped support for the 64-bit version of XP?

 

[Barney Fife]

I though Microsoft dropped support for the 64-bit version of XP?

No WaY!!!:O When did that happen? I either missed it or forgot.

 

[Sedako]

I've been using Vista 64-bit for a while now, and the single problem that I've had with it is that I can't get my sound card to work as well as it does in XP. Other than than, it works flawlessly.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Latest update is 6/10/08, its still being supported as far as I can tell from that.

 

[Operational]

You really think Vista sueprseded XP?

Yes I do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Windows_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista

I don't want to install Vista because its new and its got futuristic looks

Neither do I.

If that's the case, Gates would take his time discontinuing XP.

He is, 13 years compared to Win98's 8 years - how much longer do you want/need?

Remember XP was also based on Win2k. Why? Because of it's security features, stability and networking. And that's why we love it.

You speak as if Vista doesn't have those things, which it does and does them better. Have you actually used Vista?

Vista is, another Windows Me; A disoriented Half-step OS.

Windows ME isn't a fair comparison, Windows 95 or Windows 2000 are better ones - first steps into a new Windows enviroment.

DirectX 10 hasn't had the room to shine yet due to companies being unwilling to spend the time coding for it due to the lack of Vista uptake. It's not the only Vista feature that has this problem.

There, you just answered your own question.

How so?

 

[giant384]

i honestly think xp is here to stay until software will need over 3gigs of ram; then ill just move up to a 64bit OS which could be vista or whatever comes out. OS 9 to OS 10 had huge changes so you cant really compare xp to vista with that argument.

 

[VirusType2]

The only thing I could want is for my OS to be faster. I just want my folders and files to open instantly. I don't want all that flashy stuff and noises every time I click on things. I'm not even singling out any OS, I'm just saying - generally.

While I like the pretty graphics and everything - all that goes out the window if I have to wait longer for operations because it's rendering a stupid shadow or some slide animation. And it might only be a half-second more, but that stuff adds up and gets really frustrating.

In addition to what giant stated about RAM, I also think computers are mostly held back mainly by the current hard drive technology. I suppose that flash memory 'HDD's' will fix this.

HDD operation times are still way too slow for Minority Report kind of stuff, and spinning the disc faster and faster doesn't seem like it's going to be enough as evidenced by some of the newer - yet slower spinning drives being faster than 10K RPM drives.

Basically what I'm saying is that the magnetic platter type drives we use today are based on very old technology, and I think the future of mass storage is something completely different.

I was really routing for Holographic Optical drives, but I haven't heard any news since the conception.

 

[No Limit]

Read the complete article in the link of the original post: They will charge you for both OS. Vista as OEM and XP as stand alone OS and send you one of the OS in a CD. I don't know how exactly they're able to do that, but they are according to technewsworld.com.

Sorry, I didn't read the entire article before posting, I should have. But technewsworld is wrong on this, I don't know where they got their information. I guess it shows you that just because a "news" site on the internets says something it doesn't make it true.

http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/.../business/xp_smb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~tab=2

Legally Dell has no power here to charge you for both. According to Microsoft's own license agreement if you purchase Vista Business or Vista Ultimate you have every right to downgrade to XP using that license. This means you could download the XP iso off a torrent site if you wanted to and you'd still be in complicance with the license agreement as long as you didn't have that vista copy installed on any other machine.

In fact just to make absolutely sure I wasn't talking out off my ass I just went to dell.com and configured a pc. Going from Vista home to Vista Ultimate with XP preloaded was an additional $149 charge which is the standard cost for the Vista ultimate upgrade, you are not paying for 2 licenses. Their business workstations come with both operating systems at no charge. So no, you don't have to buy both copies, you are paying for the single Vista ultimate license.

 

[Barney Fife]

Yes I do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Windows_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista


Neither do I.


He is, 13 years compared to Win98's 8 years - how much longer do you want/need?


You speak as if Vista doesn't have those things, which it does and does them better. Have you actually used Vista?


Windows ME isn't a fair comparison, Windows 95 or Windows 2000 are better ones - first steps into a new Windows enviroment.


How so?

OK, obviously you like Vista and obviously I don't. My original point has always been: Unlike Windows 98, XP didn't really need to be replaced. Unless MS offered something twice the better, I don't like to move on while I like where I'm, and without a legitimate reason beside good looks and a fancy name.
You have stated (And Yes I did use and have a copy of Vista Home Premium, which I refused to use farther, somewhere here) That "DirectX 10 hasn't had the room to shine yet due to companies being unwilling to spend the time coding for it due to the lack of Vista uptake. It's not the only Vista feature that has this problem." And that's my exact point: No one wants Vista because people love and still use XP. Hardware/software manufacturers/developers don't like to support, took their time to support, or poorly supported Vista, because People like and still use XP.
I don't know if you guys can remember: XP release and driver support were almost instantaneous, Vista on the other hand refused to fly because XP is standing in the way. Unlike Win98, MS is forced to support XP for another six years, because even enterprises refused to be fetched by a billion dollar advertisements, they don't want to retrain their staff and invest more money for upgrades and such because they don't see the reason why, and MS doesn't want to risk a class-action.
Six years? Well, by then I'm sure something equally good or maybe better than XP will come along, and I'll be more comfortable to move on, until then, I'm going to wait it out and finish my six years, I have no reason to move on. And DX10 and Vista's Aura? Well, that's a small compromise I'm willing to trade.

I don't like MS to telling me when its over, while I still got some work to do. I'll tell MS when its over.

Take Care.

Sorry, I didn't read the entire article before posting, I should have. But technewsworld is wrong on this, I don't know where they got their information. I guess it shows you that just because a "news" site on the internets says something it doesn't make it true.

http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/.../business/xp_smb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~tab=2

Legally Dell has no power here to charge you for both. According to Microsoft's own license agreement if you purchase Vista Business or Vista Ultimate you have every right to downgrade to XP using that license. This means you could download the XP iso off a torrent site if you wanted to and you'd still be in complicance with the license agreement as long as you didn't have that vista copy installed on any other machine.

In fact just to make absolutely sure I wasn't talking out off my ass I just went to dell.com and configured a pc. Going from Vista home to Vista Ultimate with XP preloaded was an additional $149 charge which is the standard cost for the Vista ultimate upgrade, you are not paying for 2 licenses. Their business workstations come with both operating systems at no charge. So no, you don't have to buy both copies, you are paying for the single Vista ultimate license.

I was cynical about that. I think Technewsworld.com is wrong on that, that's why I said "I don't know how exactly they're able to do that, but they are according to technewsworld.com." So hopefully you're right.

Take Care.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

So, people are bent out of shape because obsolete software will become unsupported?

That's computer life.

 

[VirusType2]

Where have you been? Solid state drives have seen massive improvements lately and should be standard within the next couple of years.

maybe you missed this part of my post.

I suppose that flash memory 'HDD's' will fix this.

Right now, solid state drives are too small, and too expensive. I think it will be more than a couple years. Right now 750 GB magnetic HDD is probably the same price as a 10 GB solid state drive.

So, people are bent out of shape because obsolete software will become unsupported?

XP is obsolete? There isn't even a suitable replacement for it yet.

 

[CyberPitz]

I dislike Vista as much as any other Joe, but comparing Vista to ME is just..well, wrong. The only point I'm going to make is Right-Click on My Computer, and go to Properties. Does Vista say "Windows XP, SP 3"?

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

XP is obsolete? There isn't even a suitable replacement for it yet.

It WILL be at some point. That's the entire point of this thread.

 

[Eejit]

I don't like MS to telling me when its over, while I still got some work to do. I'll tell MS when its over.

How many Barnet Fifes does it take to change a lightbulb?