Iraq Hostages

[Septih]

If you've been following the news lately you should have seen stories about the latest westerners that have been taken hostage with demands for withdrawl etc, etc.

I found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4506970.stm

rather interesting. Basically one of the guys held under terrorism charges in the UK has appealed to the hostage takers in iraq to release their hostages in accordance with the mercy in their religion. Supposedly voluntarily.

 

[Cooper]

I like how a post about terrorists taken western hostages is ignored and yet a post about Iraqi kids throwing rocks is all of a sudden extremely popular.

But then again, their the freedom fighters right?

It kind of reminds me of all the posts about US soldiers killing mostly women and children, as if, on purpose. When everybody likes to hide the fact that the "freedom fighters" used women as sheilds. Then again, I guess the words of people who have actually been in Iraq isn't as good as the guardian.

 

[Zeus]

I like how a post about terrorists taken western hostages is ignored and yet a post about Iraqi kids throwing rocks is all of a sudden extremely popular.

But then again, their the freedom fighters right?

It kind of reminds me of all the posts about US soldiers killing mostly women and children, as if, on purpose. When everybody likes to hide the fact that the "freedom fighters" used women as sheilds. Then again, I guess the words of people who have actually been in Iraq isn't as good as the guardian.

Lol...whoever told you the US soldiers are purposely killing women and children is an idiot and/or highly misinformed. The united states army is trained to avoid harming civilians and non-combatants. I don't agree with the Iraq war in the least bit but Im sick of the people disrespecting our soldiers saying they purposely kill women, children, and other innocent people..what a bunch of crap

why dont you ask a US army personnel if they are supposed to shoot at non-combatants in Iraq..instead of people who get all their sources from conspiratist websites

 

[sinkoman]

If you've been following the news lately you should have seen stories about the latest westerners that have been taken hostage with demands for withdrawl etc, etc.

I found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4506970.stm

rather interesting. Basically one of the guys held under terrorism charges in the UK has appealed to the hostage takers in iraq to release their hostages in accordance with the mercy in their religion. Supposedly voluntarily.

Was walking to practice, and was wondering why the flag was half mast.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Lol...whoever told you the US soldiers are purposely killing women and children is an idiot and/or highly misinformed. The united states army is trained to avoid harming civilians and non-combatants. I don't agree with the Iraq war in the least bit but Im sick of the people disrespecting our soldiers saying they purposely kill women, children, and other innocent people..what a bunch of crap

why dont you ask a US army personnel if they are supposed to shoot at non-combatants in Iraq..instead of people who get all their sources from conspiratist websites

It is amazingly interesting how people think we are over there to kill civilians and destroy their lifes.

Another note of interest is how the topic of kids trying to kill american soldiers is more popular. I don't care if your for or against the war/occupation or whatever. Respect the soldiers and hate the politicians who caused it. People disgust me...

 

[Adabiviak]

Bitter bitter bitter - I imagine that there are worse (better?) ironies than this all over that country. Wait, this country too.

 

[Llama]

Why dont we tell the insurgents holding our people hostage that if they harm them instead of releasing any Iraqies we'll just shoot them all?
This country does to much pussy footing around:farmer:

Obviously we wouldn't, but it would get a point across

 

[sinkoman]

Why dont we tell the insurgents holding our people hostage that if they harm them instead of releasing any Iraqies we'll just shoot them all?
This country does to much pussy footing around:farmer:

Obviously we wouldn't, but it would get a point across

What happens when they take hold of a good president (not bush)?

We tell them that we'll blow up a few thousand pow's, but they know we're just bullshitting?

 

[Solaris]

Lol...whoever told you the US soldiers are purposely killing women and children is an idiot and/or highly misinformed. The united states army is trained to avoid harming civilians and non-combatants. I don't agree with the Iraq war in the least bit but Im sick of the people disrespecting our soldiers saying they purposely kill women, children, and other innocent people..what a bunch of crap

why dont you ask a US army personnel if they are supposed to shoot at non-combatants in Iraq..instead of people who get all their sources from conspiratist websites

Oh so youre planes didn't bombs a good few thousand civillians in the invasion?
You didn't go into Falujah shooting indiscriminatly?
The soldiers don't want to kill civvies, but there told too and do so.

 

[Kangy]

The soldiers don't want to kill civvies, but there told too and do so.

Now I made sense of this sentence, er, what proof of this do you have, other than your bigoted and scaremongering hatred of the "CAPITALI$TZ!!!11"?

 

[Llama]

What happens when they take hold of a good president (not bush)?

We tell them that we'll blow up a few thousand pow's, but they know we're just bullshitting?

Then we would actually do it.
That or wipe the entirity of the Middle-East of the face of the Earth.

 

[Solaris]

Now I made sense of this sentence, er, what proof of this do you have, other than your bigoted and scaremongering hatred of the "CAPITALI$TZ!!!11"?

The troops are all directly and indirectly responcable for http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

 

[ComradeBadger]

No, you said they were ordered to shoot civilians.

 

[Solaris]

No, you said they were ordered to shoot civilians.

Okay.

The people in the planes who drop the bombs.
or

In total, Human Rights Watch collected credible reports of 94 civilian deaths in Baghdad, involving questionable legal circumstances that warrant investigation. This number does not include civilians wounded by U.S. troops. The precise number of Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. soldiers since the end of major military operations is unknown, and the U.S. military told Human Rights Watch that it keeps no statistics on civilian deaths.

Le source

 

[Septih]

I was obviously stupid enough to think that a thread about a held terror suspect that voluntarily appealed for the release of hostages in iraq would not turn into an argument about the actions of the occupying forces...

 

[Sulkdodds]

Hand 1: It's probably true that American and British soldiers are sometimes given orders to kill or abuse innocents AND/OR do it of their own volition.

Hand 2 (other hand): It's probably true that almost all American and British soldiers don't and that the majority of the orders given aren't 'kill some civilians, yo'.

Hand 1: Such ****ing stupidity. Yeah okay, maybe you've got a point about invasion of your country, Mr. Militant. It's just whatever point you may or may not have is completely undermined by such ridiculous, stupid, bastard, random evil acts like taking hostage the very people who have voluntarily come to Iraq to help you. Nice one.

Hand 2 (other hand): It's nice that someone has actually got some sense. If this guy in prison's appeal is actually genuine (hmm...no, there have never been any forced confessions in English legal history now have there?) then it's very nice to see him appealing for the release of innocents who have nothing to do with evil imperialism, or civilian-killing or whatever the hell else these Sword dudes are pissed about.

Hand 3 (vestigal third limb): I do hope they manage to secure the release of the hostages. Whether violently or non-violently.

 

[CptStern]

I like how a post about terrorists taken western hostages is ignored and yet a post about Iraqi kids throwing rocks is all of a sudden extremely popular.

But then again, their the freedom fighters right?

anyone with a gun is a potential hostage taker ...funny how you fools dont bother to mention that over 5000 iraqis have been taken hostage since january which leads me to believe that you've barely given this war a second thought except when legitimate criticism rears its ugly head, apologists, fools whatever fits the bill ...it's complete anarchy in iraq with lawless in every corner except for some little patch of ground heavily fortified by coalition forces ..and even then suicide bombers manage to get in

It kind of reminds me of all the posts about US soldiers killing mostly women and children, as if, on purpose. When everybody likes to hide the fact that the "freedom fighters" used women as sheilds. Then again, I guess the words of people who have actually been in Iraq isn't as good as the guardian.

had you bothered to look at FACTS you'd see that the majority of women and children killed were killed by coalition bombing not troops. And yes there are countless examples of coalition forces killing innocent people but then again they're there to help iraq are they not?

 

[Absinthe]

Another note of interest is how the topic of kids trying to kill american soldiers is more popular. I don't care if your for or against the war/occupation or whatever. Respect the soldiers and hate the politicians who caused it. People disgust me...

Trying to kill? What?

 

[Glirk Dient]

Rock in the face going 50 or so mph = death.

 

[Absinthe]

Except there's a windshield in the way.

I think you're going too far if you think they are actively trying to kill US soldiers. They're expressing anger, or at the most attempting to impede travel.

 

[Zeus]

Oh so youre planes didn't bombs a good few thousand civillians in the invasion?
You didn't go into Falujah shooting indiscriminatly?
The soldiers don't want to kill civvies, but there told too and do so.

LOL! Thanks...now that I'm done laughing at that last line (the laughter lasted a few minutes) I would like to know your source for you claiming the US soldiers were ordered to kill (innocent) civilians.

 

[lister]

ooh ooh, look what i found...ooh a bus by coalition...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4509376.stm

Look again matey, in the last few months there have been more deaths & casualties to the Iraqis from the iraqs than the coalition.

 

[CptStern]

ooh ooh, look what i found...ooh a bus by coalition...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4509376.stm

Look again matey, in the last few months there have been more deaths & casualties to the Iraqis from the iraqs than the coalition.

nope


"The survey indicated that violence accounted for most of the extra deaths seen since the invasion, and that air strikes from coalition forces caused most of the violent deaths, the researchers said.

"Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children," they added."



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html



yesterday morning I was listening to an aid worker in baghdad who said that he tabulated the dead coming into the morgue he worked at for the month of june. In 30 days he had counted 1000 civilians in that hospital alone ..every last one of them killed by voilence ...multiply that by the other hospitals in bagdad, Karbala, Basra, Mosul etc ...that's thousands upon thousands of dead in one month alone ..people said the Lancet figure of 100,000 was an exageration ..I'm starting to think it's was a conservative figure and that there's far more than that

 

[SAJ]

...that's thousands upon thousands of dead in one month alone ..people said the Lancet figure of 100,000 was an exageration ..I'm starting to think it's was a conservative figure and that there's far more than that

By jove, I think he`s got it!

 

[CptStern]

I always did ..just was weary of using it because even by their own admission it was an approximation

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Imho ...

Oh so youre planes didn't bombs a good few thousand civillians in the invasion?

Do you just lack foresight altogether?

First, the targets those bombs were after happened not to be civilians, but, infact: Concrete Palaces containing Munincipal and Military authorities, Concrete Bunkers and Military hardpoints containing Armored Vehicles and weapons, Concrete Underground Intelligence centers for the Baathist regime, meant to coordinate a ground resistance should a land army threaten the capital, and lastly, concrete and steel hardpoints meant for the safe keeping of the Baathist highest authorities, up to and including Saddam himself.

Our goal in hitting these targets was simple -- disable the heaviest centers for the coordination and distribution of a Baathist resistance, and ultimately, to eliminate their highest authorities to deliver a large amount of dissarray not only in the Baathist Military command structure, but amungst the troops aswell who'd have no intelligence on US movements as a result of these disabling attacks.

We all know what a confused army does, don't we? They bunch up, they spread out, they're fight is not strong -- and all of them eventually capitulate.

The Coalition needed to break the will of the army, the most loyal to the Baathist Ideal, to allow their visions amungst the Iraqis to take root, thereby uprooting the foundations of Saddams power in one swift stroke.

For the civilians that were killed, those happened to be of military families, and while that does'nt excuse they're being killed one must understand it was hardly unavoidable. Most of the Iraqi officers and leadership wanted their families or friends around the installations, simply to keep them from a front battling with the Americans they anticpated would occur in the foredeserts around Basra.

As for those others, one must understand that from the ground up to the sky, nobody except the Coalition knew where they're bombs were going. Those civilians had time to move, but they had no cognition that they were indanger. Most of the injuries and deaths caused by the high-level or missle guided bombings came not from the explosions themselves, but from the fragments of debris caused by them.

You can't argue the civilian population was targeted to instill terror -- the shock and awe campaign was dedicated against the Officer Corp and hit the most controlling and influential centers critical for Baathist power over Baghdad.

Lastily, civilian casualties in war cannot be avoided, and we have no idea what was happening around these zones at the times of the bombings.

But stupidly, we can assume many were asleep.

You didn't go into Falujah shooting indiscriminatly?

Do you excuse the 6th Armee during World War II for shooting indiscriminatly at the buildings in Stalingrad upon every advance?

You forget, Urban Warfare is like Trench Warfare times a tenth. Your enemy could be behind every corner, in every window, near every crawlspace or rooftop.

In most cases, thats a very true discription -- and its no secret that the Al-Qaeda resistance present in the city used every option at their disposal. I would too, but I would also learn the cost. The civilian cost that is.

Not every person is going to leave where they've been born and raised, and not everyone is going to trust that the scars of war won't touch their homes, or their property. In short, people might loot their belongings while they're away, or use their place of dwelling as a Resistance bunker.

Most of these people who stayed, were either caught in the crossfire, or killed by the nightly artillery. If you've watched any of the Fallujah battle videos, the US troops are'nt "shooting indiscriminately", instead, they're baiting fire and then returning fire on the people/vehicles that are shooting at them.

This means a low casualty cost of civilians, and which is why in these battle videos, you see mostly tanks and armored personel carriers. In Fallujah, the civilian toll was as it was, sheerly because of three reasons in a gathering summary from my post:

1st. They stayed to protect their belongings and life inside the city.
2nd. They got caught in the crossfire, or in the zones of heavy fighting while trying to leave.
3rd. They were likely killed during the nightly bombing exchanges between Insurgent and US Personell alike.

If you don't believe, consult the mountains of video documented evidence available all over the Interweb. You'll find that most of this indiscriminate shooting was not, or if it appears to be occuring, its likely blind fire between Insurgent and Coalition, and not the other way around of killing civilians for no reason.

The soldiers don't want to kill civvies, but there told too and do so.

I have not seen an instance were this had occured, but I have heard some stories reminiscent of those from the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

And yet, these incidences appear to be minor, what with all the clamor of alledged and continueing US air bombings on "random civilians with no logic behind them".

Let me, ahem, let you in on a little secret. The mortars and artillery that is still in Insurgent hands, is being used ... and guess what against? Iraqi civilians!

If you've recently been watching several HBO Specials (and those several very important documents on Ogri -- I mean ... well whatever), you would see the Abu Masab Al-Zarqwai Islamic Facist propaganda machine at work.

First, they target a position of civilians with mortar fire. Then, in brief summary, ride in on several white knight horses (or Technicals with dirty M2 Machineguns) and say, "OMFG AMERICA TEH BOMBED J00!! BOO EVAL WESTERNERS!"

And the victims, as seen in the videos, know not the difference between the explosions and see no difference in they're type (kills lots of things). Given the messages about Americans indiscriminately targeting civilians, it takes little or no time at all for them to fall for Zarqwai's Propaganda snare trap. Rage consumes them, and with that bitter victims mentality they feel compelled to believe the Insurgetns. But, as seen since the videos documentation, Abu Masab Al-Zarqwai has been careful for what gets out about his forces, but its not hindered his operations aswell as you might think. (The truth anyway, falls short of acceptance due to some of the wars more fantastical concepts, like all US soldiers are from a Redneck Trailer zoo that poops out ignorance every seven seconds)

For some truth pages about the Insurgents, and not mockingly, here you go!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_resistance
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1583879,00.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/11/22/iraq6527.htm

Enjoy! Some good reading there.

Capi-tan Stern, for your reading:

funny how you fools dont bother to mention that over 5000 iraqis have been taken hostage

By the insurgents themselves, or the Prisoners of War captured during or after battles?

Or, for some inane reason, are you referencing those house raids? In this instance, and I'm assuming you are, I'll only say one thing.

I would do house raids against suspected targets. My reasoning; "I don't want my men to die tomorrow because a 17 year old boy had the honors of detonating a road side bomb in the middle of my convoy".

had you bothered to look at FACTS you'd see that the majority of women and children killed were killed by coalition bombing not troops. And yes there are countless examples of coalition forces killing innocent people but then again they're there to help iraq are they not?

Well, they're are also now countless and continually mounting civilian casualties coming from not Coalition bombing, but by Insurgent Suicide and Roadside bombings. They're killing more civilians then soldiers, that much we can be certain of.

In 30 days he had counted 1000 civilians in that hospital alone ..every last one of them killed by voilence ...multiply that by the other hospitals in bagdad, Karbala, Basra, Mosul etc ...that's thousands upon thousands of dead in one month alone ..people said the Lancet figure of 100,000 was an exageration ..I'm starting to think it's was a conservative figure and that there's far more than that

But these deaths are'nt all from Coalition bombings, now are they Stern? I'll answer for you, "Nope, but you see ..." No, no, Herr Stern, here's a new fact.

The violence thats continueing, even now as we speak, is being mostly perpetrated by your resistance against ... it's own people. If we were'nt there for the benefit of the Iraqi people now, its just suddenly become our agenda to protect them from themselves.

By jove, I think he`s got it!

Nobody has the complete picture, just tatters.

 

[Solaris]

It doesn't matter how you justify youre tatics and whom the bombs were aimed at.

They killed 30,000 civillians.
Irrespective of how careful the Coallition was, it killed 30,000 too many.
Thoose people were not killed in the battle for freedom, or liberation.
They were killed becuase of profit and greed by our leaders.

 

[dantewilliams]

Oh so youre planes didn't bombs a good few thousand civillians in the invasion?

Civilians die, however its saddams fault for placing his troops in the cities.

You didn't go into Falujah shooting indiscriminatly?

there were pamphlets dropped for days warning people of the impending invasion, there was plenty of time to evacuate.

The soldiers don't want to kill civvies, but there told too and do so.

please show me an order given by an american commander that says PVT. XXX go shoot some civis.

 

[satch919]

Yeah, I saw those on the news. Poor guys will either be shot or beheaded. :frown:

I still remember when I saw the video of Nick Berg being beheaded. That'll stay with me for the rest of my life. I cringe thinking about his and the other's last moments.

 

[sinkoman]

"Ok, Delta and Bravo squad, I want you two to raid encampment Alpha Lima Charlie at 0200

November squad, go kill some civilians"

"Aw, but sarge, I dun want too "

Nope, I just can't see that happening.

 

[CptStern]

"Ok, Delta and Bravo squad, I want you two to raid encampment Alpha Lima Charlie at 0200

November squad, go kill some civilians"

"Aw, but sarge, I dun want too "

Nope, I just can't see that happening.

it happens in isolated incidents:


"According to the Army, Saville, a West Point graduate from Virginia, ordered his subordinates on the night of Jan. 3 to drive two Iraqi detainees to a bridge over the Tigris River in the Iraqi city of Samarra, in the Sunni Triangle. Saville, 24, then ordered his men to push the detainees into the river as punishment for breaking curfew. One of the Iraqis drowned, the Army said."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24620-2004Jul2.html


the majority of coalition atributed casualties are from bombing

 

[Glirk Dient]

They were killed becuase of profit and greed by our leaders.

Wow you are done talking. Unless you can prove that this war was started so people could gain money while others die then don't talk. You comment was just stupid.

 

[Top Secret]

it happens in isolated incidents:

I'm sure you can recognize that this happens in every war, dispite who is fighting it... there will always be a jackass in charge somewhere.

 

[sinkoman]

it happens in isolated incidents:


"According to the Army, Saville, a West Point graduate from Virginia, ordered his subordinates on the night of Jan. 3 to drive two Iraqi detainees to a bridge over the Tigris River in the Iraqi city of Samarra, in the Sunni Triangle. Saville, 24, then ordered his men to push the detainees into the river as punishment for breaking curfew. One of the Iraqis drowned, the Army said."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24620-2004Jul2.html


the majority of coalition atributed casualties are from bombing

Well see, that's different from just ordering men to go raid the streets and kill all civilians, as the meatheads in this thread keep saying.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

It doesn't matter how you justify youre tatics and whom the bombs were aimed at.

It matters more to your arguement then it does mine. I'm not trying to justify there deaths -- you however have, with your own lacking, not going to call it evidence but ... assumed agendaic idea's on the role of America in Iraq.

You've been brainwashed by God knows who, and I would suggest that if you don't want to look stupid debating history in the future, that you give consideration to all the facts already available about this war.

If you have'nt got but one perspective on this war, then you don't have both -- and until you have both of these versions then you'll resume to being one sided.

They killed 30,000 civillians.
Irrespective of how careful the Coallition was, it killed 30,000 too many.
Thoose people were not killed in the battle for freedom, or liberation.
They were killed becuase of profit and greed by our leaders.

I don't think profit or greed had anything to do with the initial bombing campaign, and seeing as nobody factually knows a complete truth for this war, the only thing people like you and me can do is wait.

Your giving us an interpretation of what occured, and I've shared with you facts. Bombings are indiscriminate, and the bombings here were not meant to target civilians.

The 30,000 figure also came from people not even killed by bombs, but by crossfire, and according to several sources, disease and sickness, not nessecarly having to do with the bombs themselves.

I think Iraqi Body Count has a reasonable figure set, but they also have some reasons for the casualties themselves, and none of them say, "EVAL AMERIKAN CAME AND KILLED HIM WITH EXPLOSIVE".

93% of those killed as a result of the bombs explosions, died from the debris pushed away from the initial blast zone.

Which means a very low figure of deaths exists for the other 7% who happened to be caught in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

the majority of coalition atributed casualties are from bombing

... but not the explosions directly.

 

[ة الأسئلة الشائع]

lol you know you need to trim you beard when it can not fit in a picture!

 

[K e r b e r o s]

How do you get your name to display like that? [OT]

 

[ة الأسئلة الشائع]

How do you get your name to display like that? [OT]

Magic!

 

[hasan]

like this:

بابة هذي ملاعيب سحريه ههههه

 

[Psychism]

...30,000 civilians killed over oil? thats 30,000 more bodies turning into oil in a few hundred years you like driving right? you like electricity right? well keep killing people their bodies make more oil in case you were unaware the earth is almost out of oil at current consumption rates theres roughly a 26-32 year supply left so what would you do? I know what I would do first I would invade the countries with the most oil then I would train for free thousands of killing machines (view the free military training the US is supplying for afghani and iraqi citizens) then I would turn the oil harboring areas into giant warzones to cover up my intentions of burying the bodies in mass graves so they would make more oil for future generations just think if we were dinosaurs the oil we were burning right now would be made of our ancestors corpses... I hope I'm dead before my body is burned as fuel for my heirs