Iraq War Showdown On Hill -- Pullout Vote Set For 7pm

[Last One In]

This is it forks, The ultimate showdown in congress. Hopefully this god awful war will end tonight. http://drudgereport.com/ This will be more exciting then watching the superbowl.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Pull them out now? That would be horrible. We have to finish what we started or else Iraq won't be any better off than when we went in there.

 

[Last One In]

This will set a time frame hopefully.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Well that sounds better then. A plan to get them out is much much better than nothing.

 

[Last One In]

If they vote on a pullout though, that means that we'll leave no matter what, unless some circumstance comes up in which it would be impossible or idiotic.

 

[gh0st]

i hope we completely pullout within the next 6-12 months. for some reason i get the inkling that iraq and the region as a whole are better off without us there. we have the broad basis for government and have neutralized saddam hussein lets just get the **** out.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I say the US should finish what it started.

A plan to keep at least the country's government and police workers safe from assassination should be thought up and fully realized before a pullout.
Hell, that should have been thought out before the war even started.
Some sort of solution to all the carbombs as well.

All in all, they need a freaking solid plan. Something more than 'as we leave we will be saluted as liberators'.

As for the plan's cost, the US should spend as much as they've got. It's pretty selfish to go frugal before the job is done, and it's not like debt and overspending stopped them before.
Finish it!

 

[Milkman]

Ah yes, the democratic process at works; the executive battling the legislative, and the legislative battling the executive.

 

[Last One In]

If there was a good reason for this war we would have been able to finish it in a matter of months, as we did in afganastan. But as it is most people view it as an oil war.

 

[RabidMeatloaf]

Pull them out now? That would be horrible. We have to finish what we started or else Iraq won't be any better off than when we went in there.

I completely agree. Pulling out the troops now would be utterly disastrous for Iraq.

It would also mean 2,079 (last count I heard) soldiers have died in vain.

That is not acceptable to me. :|

 

[Last One In]

If they vote for a no pullout, they should have a joint session of congress to overview the strategy for Iraq.

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

Pull them out now? That would be horrible. We have to finish what we started or else Iraq won't be any better off than when we went in there.

100% Right! QFT.

 

[Last One In]

Bush's lack of plan is what is causing this war to look so bad. If we got someone in there who actually knew what the **** they were doing, like McKane, this might turn out for the best.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

A plan would be nice.

I'm just sick of the entire middle east. I'm sick of trying to understand the rationale of the islamic jihadists, i'm sick of the complete pointlessness of trying to change cultures and force our ways onto theirs. Why weren't there suicide bombers attacking Saddams regime every week of the year? Surely his rule was so evil and bad that there would have been a consistent rebellion? Where was it? Frightened of being captured and tortured? Well the U.S capture and torture as well, it's just the same.

I'm sick of Iraq, i'm sick of the region.

Gtfo.

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

Bush's lack of plan is what is causing this war to look so bad. If we got someone in there who actually knew what the **** they were doing, like McKane, this might turn out for the best.

Yes continue to blame Bush even tho it went through congress before we actually went to war...

 

[gh0st]

It would also mean 2,079 (last count I heard) soldiers have died in vain.

That is not acceptable to me. :|

id rather another 2000 troops LIVE than to somehow honor those that have died. waste of our time. NO gain for the american people.

 

[Bait]

Where the hell were these comments 2 years ago?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

A timetable is a very stupid idea. A pullout plan is completely necessary though, and must be presented. That way by saying "November 15, 2006" or something like that you don't create the situation for more death and enemy forces to consolidate and sleep until then.

 

[OCybrManO]

Well... once they have a fully functioning government (progress is being made on that front), a large enough standing military force to both protect themselves as well as train enough new people to maintain it (sadly, we're failing miserably in this aspect), and we've rebuilt as much as we've destroyed (I don't know the progress of rebuilding)... there's not much more we can do by occupying Iraq. From there, we can continue to send things like humanitarian aid and experts to do any other kind of civilian training (medical, architectural, etc) necessary. Once they can handle it we have to let them take care of themselves. If not, what does all that "spreading freedom" crap mean if we continue to occupy the country? We need more of a checklist for leaving Iraq than a timeline. Once we satisfy all the basic needs... we leave.

 

[Ikerous]

I've been watching them discuss it since they started at 7:30.
Should be funny when only three people vote for it

 

[Glo-Boy]

So it's been 3 and a half hours. When will we know the outcome?

 

[Ikerous]

So it's been 3 and a half hours. When will we know the outcome?

Lol, the guy just offered, in jest, to give up his time if everyone else did so they can vote right now (Since they know it won't pass). I dont think it works that way though They should have like a half hour more to debate the subject before they vote. So about an hour i assume

 

[Ikerous]

right now its 3 yea and 381 nay. Then again it was just a political stunt meant to reassure the troops that, despite what the media portays, america is still behind them. It was never meant to pass.

It was a proposal by the REPUBLICANS saying that we should have the IMMEDIATE pull out of troops from iraq. That obviously wasn't going to do well on either side.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I'm so happy it was rejected -- and yet, stunned. I thought the anti-war people surely would've made their last stand in a congressional vote, and yet ...

Several Democrats abstained from voting. I think they costed the liberals they're pullout plan.

 

[Solaris]

Damn.

Immediate withdrawl ftw.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yeah, because it'll really help. Honestly, OCybermanO and others are right - the US needs to make things good before they leave or else they prove their 'we're here to help the country' schtick is just a load of hot air.

 

[Last One In]

We just need a new president now.

 

[Top Secret]

God damnit. We'd better finish what we started or I'm going to be ****ing ticked.

Once again ->

England + Africa = No no.

 

[mortiz]

The U.S. should get out of there. In the 31 months since the war ended there's been more violence than actually during the war and things don't look like they're improving. They should have a vote, with Iraqi's voting on whether the U.S. should leave, after all it's their country and don't they have a democratic right now to ask their occupiers to leave?

You may not understand the Iraqi mentality and you're not alone, my Dad has an Iraqi friend and even he says he doesn't understand his own people sometimes, however since Bush keeps banging on about democratic freedoms it's up to him to realise the Iraqi's democratic freedom not to be occupied by an external force.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Mortiz, your just a mouthpiece for the liberal media. Did you know that 40,000 Americans died last year in their own country, from violence alone? How about that 120,000 that died last year from automotive accidents?

How about we, "pull out" our teenagers from bad drinking habits, and stop them from driving until they're disciplined enough to handle the responsibility?

How about we, "end this war" and help to stop the violence that last year, took 40,000 American lives?

What about those dying from disease, or starvation within their own country?

I ask you this final question -- can you honestly state or at least make the suggestion, that Iraq is somehow worse off then it ever was, without knowing in full the cost of people over here from just sheer stupidity and emotional pride?

What of others?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Kerberos, your just a mouthpiece for the conservative media.

Fixed. Maybe. Or maybe it's just a ridiculous thing to say!

There's a difference there, you know. The things you're talking about are results of a failure to run your own country properly, whereas Iraq is another country that you invaded. Now everyone's saying 'oh we invaded so we could make things better' - well if you're going to make things better, go the distance and actually do it. There are two potential problems with this plan:

- if America pulls out
- if America sucks too much to actually fix the country

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Sulkdodds, think of this logically. To say that one attrocity is worse then the next, is an attrocity itself.

My point was, if someone wants to make a big deal out of death, why not start with his own people first?
Has he forgotten, or has he not CARED? And, if he would apply the same "logic" to his own people: "well, the people here are stupid, they can make choices and they choose poorly", -or- "that person had it coming" -or- "I could'nt do anything about it", then why not apply it to someone else's people, wartime situation or not?

If he feels he has the power to preach and protest a situation thousands of miles away from his Personal Computer, but not the power to preach and protest a situation thousands of inches away from his Personal Computer, then what is power? I call that powerless.

- if America pulls out
- if America sucks too much to actually fix the country

America is staying, and its not pulling out. Problem?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Well okay then, if they're staying, they only have one problem to worry about: the second. It's arguable that they haven't done that so far. But we don't know yet, do we?

My point was, if someone wants to make a big deal out of death, why not start with his own people first?
Has he forgotten, or has he not CARED? And, if he would apply the same "logic" to his own people: "well, the people here are stupid, they can make choices and they choose poorly", -or- "that person had it coming" -or- "I could'nt do anything about it", then why not apply it to someone else's people, wartime situation or not?

If he feels he has the power to preach and protest a situation thousands of miles away from his Personal Computer, but not the power to preach and protest a situation thousands of inches away from his Personal Computer, then what is power? I call that powerless.

Thing is, that's not what he said. He said the US should leave Iraq because they've made it worse than it was before, and because they have no right to be there (or at least proposed a vote by the Iraqi people on whether they should stay). Personally, I disagree - I think America ****ed up by invading in the first place but to leave now, and not make good on their promises, would be irresponsible in the extreme (but does it seem that unlikely? Hmm).

As this is a thread about pulling out of Iraq I don't think you should read anything into the fact that he didn't say anything about the state of America on the home front.

Minimising casualties. It's hard to keep deaths low at home when you're fighting abroad.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

He said the US should leave Iraq because they've made it worse than it was before,

If you've understood all wars its that they bring violence and loss wherever they travel. United States invading Iraq, the Billabong region of Mars invading Mexico, its still going to be an epic center for the worlds worst emotions and judgements.

As this is a thread about pulling out of Iraq I don't think you should read anything into the fact that he didn't say anything about the state of America on the home front.

We finish what we start -- or we look stupid later when we have to do something else on the whim of Politicians or World Unity idealists.

 

[CptStern]

you've lost all credibility ..it'll take you decades to bring it back to respectable levels ...trust me the world wont be so complacent should you decide to go "crusading" once again

I've said it before I'll say it again ...the US has no right to be in Iraq ..immediate withdrawl of ALL coalition forces to be replaced with a volunteer group from different countries. I have zero faith the US will EVER do what's right for iraq...they havent in the past I dont see why they'd start now ...you really dug yourselves a grave (literally)

the only real way hostilities would cease would be if iraq erupted in an all out civil war, whomever comes on top would reign in the remaining groups just like Saddam did with help from the cia during the 80's

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I've said it before I'll say it again ...the US has no right to be in Iraq ..immediate withdrawl of ALL coalition forces to be replaced with a volunteer group from different countries. I have zero faith the US will EVER do what's right for iraq...they havent in the past I dont see why they'd start now ...you really dug yourselves a grave (literally)

Emotive propaganda. You can't judge whats right for Iraq in the position your in now (the, sitting at your dayjob's/home's personal computer position) -- we all have to wait and see what Iraq wants to become.

the only real way hostilities would cease would be if iraq erupted in an all out civil war, whomever comes on top would reign in the remaining groups just like Saddam did with help from the cia during the 80's

Iraq did'nt need the CIA to run but I'm interested to see a source for this claim. Oh, and for the sake of everyone's sanity here, let's go for something credible this time ... like CNN.

..it'll take you decades to bring it back to respectable levels

Maybe in the eyes of you, CptStern -- but America's not interested in being respected by you.

 

[CptStern]

Emotive propaganda. You can't judge whats right for Iraq in the position your in now (the, sitting at your dayjob's/home's personal computer position) -- we all have to wait and see what Iraq wants to become.

no I have every right to make a judgement because unlike the overwhelming majority of you I've actually researched this war quite extensively ..why isn tthe US qualified ..there's a multitude of reasons ..one in particular comes to mind ..the US is rewriting Iraqi law that's favourable to US businesses over Iraqi businesses. If that isnt enough of a justification there's always the charges that the US has used torture, secret prisons and Chemical weapons ...not too mention that they invaded iraq under false pretenses

Iraq did'nt need the CIA to run but I'm interested to see a source for this claim. Oh, and for the sake of everyone's sanity here, let's go for something credible this time ... like CNN.

how about official US declassified documents...is that acceptable?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Maybe in the eyes of you, CptStern -- but America's not interested in being respected by you.

please I couldnt care less about respect in this case ...credibility, kerberos ...completely different thing

 

[Solaris]

If we accept that America's reason for invasion was fueled by there own intrests, rather than that of Iraq's. Then it is logical to assume that they are still there, becuase they are still gaining something. Contracts, strategic positioning ect.

That is why they should leave, they are there for there own intrests. They have nothing to provide for the Iraqis, in Bagdad there lucky to get 2hours electrizity a day, where as they used to get it all the time. The healthcare is terrible, when it used to be pretty damn good, and free! People are scared to walk the streets.

People are angry at the Coalition for what it has done and is doing.
It is effectively raping Iraq.
An Immediate withdrawl, is essenctial, what happens next there are a few choices, but for god sake they need to withdraw!

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

but for god sake they need to withdraw!

Pussy, you don't start something then run away and not end it.

 

[Solaris]

Pussy, you don't start something then run away and not end it.

Well they have to right to be there.
Its like being caught robbing a house and then arguing that you might as well let him finish robbing it.