iRAQ

[Solaris]

Iraq was a venture of heros
the iraqi people are now free

it was totally justified

I apologise for my previous anti war stance, I am ashamed that I stood between freedom and oppresion.

The facists must not win

SUPPORT OUT TROOPS/HEROS

 

[The Monkey]

D:

I think the Iraqi people would rather be alive than free.

 

[Emporius]

I think America needs to learn that "Freeing the shit out of them" is a bit of a paradox :hmph:

 

[Thandurin]

Iran's turn next.

 

[Sheepo]

It would be nice if all middle eastern countries joined up so we could attack them all at once. I mean, it's only polite

 

[Mr Stabby]

While freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam was a noble idea, that's not why we went in and the whole operation has been managed very incompetently.

 

[Absinthe]

Bush was a great man.

A great man whose vision was hobbled by freedom-hating peaceniks.

 

[Escaep]

Even though you may not support the war you should still support the troops that are fighting it.

 

[Solaris]

Even though you may not support the war you should still support the troops that are fighting it.

No you shouldn't.
If the war is immoral, you should support those who kill our troops.

However, the war is just and that is why I support the troops.

 

[15357]

I think Solaris must have had an epiphany and now is seeing the truth.

 

[Solaris]

Solaris...are you being sarcastic or joking around with the comment



I seriously hope you are. :|

No, I was being fully serious. I, in fact, used to support the insurgency, to my shame.

If you believe the Coalition went into Iraq for steal it's oil, imposed puppet governments, occupied and oppressed the people, tortured and killed them almost indiscriminately. Then to state that, whilst still supporting the troops is intellectual cowardice. You must draw out your conclusions to the end and that is, supporting the insurgency.

 

[15357]

Well, even if you have yet to turn into a freedom-loving right-winger, at least you aren't now one of those people that protest "SUPPORT IRAQI ARMED RESISTANCE!"

Do you not have any respect for what our boys have been doing out there? You may not have supported the war or whatever, but you can't be so bloody ignorant as to support those people who attack our troops.

Didn't he say that he "used to"?

 

[Asknoone]

Try again.

 

[Solaris]

Do you not have any respect for what our boys have been doing out there? You may not have supported the war or whatever, but you can't be so bloody ignorant as to support those people who attack our troops.

Read what I said:

Solaris: I, in fact, used to support the insurgency, to my shame.

I'm not going to flame black, but lets keep the 'bloody ignorants' to a minimum, don't ignore what I post and flame me, grant me that courtesy at least.

 

[Solaris]

Ahem, sorry Solaris

So, how can you support those who attack and kill our troops? Or do you not care about their lives? Honestly I cannot understand this position.

I don't and I've clearly stated that I do not.

Please re-read what I posted.

 

[Evo]

I don't and I've clearly stated that I do not.

Please re-read what I posted.

I have and have withdrawn my comment.

 

[Gray Fox]

Solaris is right, it doesn't make any sense to support the troops
if you disagree with the goals they have.

If a politician tomorrow would say we are going to send our
troops to china to rape their woman and kill their children.
Would you support them, just because they were your troops?
Would you have supported the nazi soldiers if you were a German?
I wouldn't. I would rather see them defeated and killed then
for them to succeed and do what was ordered of them to be done.

This does not mean I want our troops to die, it doesn't mean I
hate them. But I have weighed in of what is worse, our soldier
dying or our soldier killing many innocent civilians/or being
responsible for the deaths of many civilians. To use the Iraq war
as an example, I was against it because I believed it would harm
a lot of people. And indeed I did not support our troops. And yes
that meant that I would rather have see them defeated by the
enemy then the other way around. Not because I hate them,not
because I'm unpatriotic. But because the deaths of innocent
civilians weighed more on me then the death of our soldiers.

If the job at hand requires our soldier to kill to win, then you
cannot support the troops without supporting them killing then
enemy and all that it brings with it.
Unconditional support support of troops is morally deplorable. As
is the fact that the same people who are so quick to call people
like me stupid or cowards, are the ones that put our troops in
the morally deplorable place to begin with.

 

[15357]

Solaris is right, it doesn't make any sense to support the troops
if you disagree with the goals they have.

If a politician tomorrow would say we are going to send our
troops to china to rape their woman and kill their children.
Would you support them, just because they were your troops?

But that's not actually the case for most of the time. No sane person would say that, instead they would have some other justification.

Would you have supported the nazi soldiers if you were a German?

Are you talking about the Wehrmacht, or the SS? Because not all German soldiers were Nazis; they were just commanded by them.

I wouldn't. I would rather see them defeated and killed then
for them to succeed and do what was ordered of them to be done.

Eh, quite a lot of them were conscripts, and many of the Volkssturm and Volksgrenadiers were 10 ~ 16 years old. So, wut?

This does not mean I want our troops to die, it doesn't mean I hate them.

Wut?

But I have weighed in of what is worse, our soldier
dying or our soldier killing many innocent civilians/or being
responsible for the deaths of many civilians. To use the Iraq war
as an example, I was against it because I believed it would harm
a lot of people. And indeed I did not support our troops. And yes
that meant that I would rather have see them defeated by the
enemy then the other way around. Not because I hate them,not
because I'm unpatriotic. But because the deaths of innocent
civilians weighed more on me then the death of our soldiers.

But their victory would have meant less deaths and suicide bombings :rolling:

If the job at hand requires our soldier to kill to win, then you
cannot support the troops without supporting them killing then
enemy and all that it brings with it.

Yes, of course.

Unconditional support support of troops is morally deplorable. As
is the fact that the same people who are so quick to call people
like me stupid or cowards, are the ones that put our troops in
the morally deplorable place to begin with.

I am not going to call you a coward, nor stupid (because it wouldn't actually make sense, and I have a good deal of respect for you) but we uh... seem to have conflicting standards of morality.

 

[repiV]

WTF kind of twat doesn't support his own country's troops?
They're there to do whatever the nation requires, they don't get to decide what that job is. And their primary job is and always will be to protect YOU. They are not a ****ing political party.
If you "support those who kill our troops", you're a traitor and deserve nothing less than to have your citizenship revoked.

 

[Solaris]

WTF kind of twat doesn't support his own country's troops?
They're there to do whatever the nation requires, they don't get to decide what that job is. And their primary job is and always will be to protect YOU. They are not a ****ing political party.
If you "support those who kill our troops", you're a traitor and deserve nothing less than to have your citizenship revoked.

I have a little technique I like to employ when deciding whether a piece of reasoning is correct or not.

If the reasoning, allows two people to try and kill each other, and be morally justified for it according to the reasoning, the reasoning is obviously false.

Your reasoning obviously fails that test. As it justifies the Nazis.

According to ReprV, the brave Germans who sabotaged the Nazi war effort due to their consciences are twats.

Thats disgraceful. It is clear repiV is amoral; he puts illusions of country and patriotism above all other concerns.

I have no doubt in Nazi Germany he would have gladly signed up and fought, even knowing what he knows now.

 

[repiV]

I have a little technique I like to employ when deciding whether a piece of reasoning is correct or not.

If the reasoning, allows two people to try and kill each other, and be morally justified for it according to the reasoning, the reasoning is obviously false.

Your reasoning obviously fails that test. As it justifies the Nazis.

According to ReprV, the brave Germans who sabotaged the Nazi war effort due to their consciences are twats.

Thats disgraceful. It is clear repiV is amoral; he puts illusions of country and patriotism above all other concerns.
I have no doubt in Nazi Germany he would have gladly signed up and fought, even knowing what he knows now.

No, idiot. The military is not a force for right or wrong, it's responsible for national defence. If you have a problem with what they are called to do, take it up with your MP. Soldiers have no choice in the matter.
It's only because better people than you are willing to put their lives on the line for ungrateful bastards like yourself that you have the freedom to talk shit on the internet at all. Much as your hippie delusions would tell you otherwise, the free world would not survive without military force to defend it.
It's not about "illusions of country" or "patriotism", the simple fact is the military is the institution that protects our nation at the cost of their lives. If you're an enemy of the troops, you're also an enemy of the nation. You demonstrate that you have no loyalty whatsoever to your fellow countrymen, the people who you live with and the people who pay their taxes so you can go to college. You and your clueless moral relativism makes me sick.

 

[Eejit]

But, amagad, Bloody Sunday.

 

[Solaris]

No, idiot. The military is not a force for right or wrong, it's responsible for national defence. If you have a problem with what they are called to do, take it up with your MP. Soldiers have no choice in the matter.
It's only because better people than you are willing to put their lives on the line for ungrateful bastards like yourself that you have the freedom to talk shit on the internet at all. Much as your hippie delusions would tell you otherwise, the free world would not survive without military force to defend it.
It's not about "illusions of country" or "patriotism", the simple fact is the military is the institution that protects our nation at the cost of their lives. If you're an enemy of the troops, you're also an enemy of the nation. You demonstrate that you have no loyalty whatsoever to your fellow countrymen, the people who you live with and the people who pay their taxes so you can go to college. You and your clueless moral relativism makes me sick.

No, you don't get to make it about defending democracy. It's about fighting for your country, and if you don't support those who do, you are a 'twat'.

Those who fight in Iraq and Afghanistan have my full support, they are fighting a brave cause. But I do not support them because they are 'our troops' it's because their cause is just. If the UK invaded venezuela, I'd hope I'd have the courage to go over there and fight defending Chavez, I would have no qualms about fighting my own countries soldiers. No decent man can.

There are many occasions in our countries history when I think the most just side, was that which was fighting and killing British soldiers. Just because this country is mine, does not make it right. No country is worth dying for purely out of patriotism. Instead it must be for a just cause such as: Socialism, Preventing Genocide, Freeing a people etc. You have have different causes. But to simply say we should support our soldiers, no matter what they do, because they are ours, is incorrect and demands you support them, even if they waged a war of rape and murder like the Nazis did.

So to answer your question:
"WTF kind of twat doesn't support his own country's troops?"

A kind of man who puts Human rights, freedom, the right to self determination, anti racism above patriotism.

 

[kirovman]

I think I've fallen into another dimension, where Solaris is a capitalist pig.

 

[Asknoone]

I hope that doesn't include Solaris knowing what he's talking about? Because that would be a very frightening dimension indeed.

Anyway, less “twats”, less “idiots”, less “**** off” and less “dumbass.” I know this is politics and usually we'd throw eggs at each other but this is a forum and I'd like you to keep it civil. No matter how dense the opposition is. There are far subtler ways of ridiculing people than outright flaming them.

 

[repiV]

No, you don't get to make it about defending democracy. It's about fighting for your country, and if you don't support those who do, you are a 'twat'.

It's about both. Our democracy and way of life cannot exist without a strong national defence. Are you really too stupid to understand this concept?
The military's primary purpose is to defend our country, and that will never change. If the UK was invaded for any reason, THEY would be the ones dying to save your unworthy arse.

Those who fight in Iraq and Afghanistan have my full support, they are fighting a brave cause. But I do not support them because they are 'our troops' it's because their cause is just. If the UK invaded venezuela, I'd hope I'd have the courage to go over there and fight defending Chavez, I would have no qualms about fighting my own countries soldiers. No decent man can.

You have a very sick and twisted concept of "decent" and "just cause", and you're a very ****ed up person if you think it would be noble of you to kill people who may have been your classmates, your friends, your townspeople, in order to fight the cause of a brutal dictator on the other side of the world.
What you also fail to understand is that you owe this country a debt. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the decisions the politicians are taking at any particular moment, you grew up here. Your family raised you here. You were educated through considerable taxpayer expense, your ties are here. The collective wellbeing of our citizenry is not a political matter.
If you think some ****ing warped idea (and you are seriously gone in the head on your idea of a noble cause) is a just cause for you to desert the nation that has supported you all your life, and kill the people who defend it, you're really nothing more than scum of the earth. Lowest of the low.
And if these Venezuelans you fantasise about fighting for had any sense, they'd kill you when the war was over to prevent you switching loyalties again the moment something doesn't go your way.

There are many occasions in our countries history when I think the most just side, was that which was fighting and killing British soldiers. Just because this country is mine, does not make it right. No country is worth dying for purely out of patriotism. Instead it must be for a just cause such as: Socialism, Preventing Genocide, Freeing a people etc. You have have different causes. But to simply say we should support our soldiers, no matter what they do, because they are ours, is incorrect and demands you support them, even if they waged a war of rape and murder like the Nazis did.

You claim to know so much about the world, but you're so goddamn stupid. There is no such thing as a "just cause" in international relations. Each country has its own interests, acts in its own interests, and the military is the force which acts to protect that country's interests.
No country is perfect, and none are particularly good-natured either, but as far as nations go, ours comes out pretty well.
If your moronic, tragic, oppressive ideas of a "just cause" are more important to you than the well-being of your fellow citizens, you should just leave right now. You don't deserve to live here.

So to answer your question:
"WTF kind of twat doesn't support his own country's troops?"

A kind of man who puts Human rights, freedom, the right to self determination, anti racism above patriotism.

No, the kind of man who puts his own ridiculous concepts of right and wrong above personal loyalties. You're the kind of person who would befriend someone when it suits you and then stab them in the back when you have no further use for them.
You have a zealous, slightly insane obsession with communism in the UK, yet you have quite plainly shown that you don't give a shit about any of your countrymen. You're willing to kill them at the drop of the hat. So why do you care about "helping" us with communism? Evidently you don't, your questionable morals have nothing to do with helping people - and everything to do with spreading your communist bullshit at any cost, whether people want it or not.
Your true colours are really starting to surface. You're not only clueless and naive, but an immoral, untrustworthy snake.

 

[repiV]

I hope that doesn't include Solaris knowing what he's talking about? Because that would be a very frightening dimension indeed.

Anyway, less ?twats?, less ?idiots?, less ?**** off? and less ?dumbass.? I know this is politics and usually we'd throw eggs at each other but this is a forum and I'd like you to keep it civil. No matter how dense the opposition is. There are far subtler ways of ridiculing people than outright flaming them.

I'm trying my best, but when he pretty much boasts about how much he would like to turn against us all in an orgy of violence if the opportunity presents, it's pretty difficult.
We really don't need that kind of scum in the world.

 

[Eejit]

So the Republic of Ireland should still be part of the UK repiv?

 

[repiV]

So the Republic of Ireland should still be part of the UK repiv?

I don't much care either way.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Solaris, what made you change your opinion of the war in Iraq?

 

[Eejit]

I don't much care either way.

You seem to be completely against the kind of behaviour that occured during the war of independance though.

 

[repiV]

You seem to be completely against the kind of behaviour that occured during the war of independance though.

I think it's fair to say that civil war is a completely different set of circumstances with many more shades of grey.
Certainly not comparable to committing openly violent treason on behalf of a dictatorship thousands of miles away.

 

[Solaris]

It's about both. Our democracy and way of life cannot exist without a strong national defence. Are you really too stupid to understand this concept?
The military's primary purpose is to defend our country, and that will never change. If the UK was invaded for any reason, THEY would be the ones dying to save your unworthy arse.

And I would be eternally thankful for that. However, most of the wars Britian has been engaged in, in the last century have not been defensive wars against those who would take my freedom. Rather they were to defend British capital interests and as a socialist, that is not something I will ever thank someone for fighting for.

You have a very sick and twisted concept of "decent" and "just cause", and you're a very ****ed up person if you think it would be noble of you to kill people who may have been your classmates, your friends, your townspeople, in order to fight the cause of a brutal dictator on the other side of the world.

No I wouldn't, I don't think the British people would stand for that. But hypothetically, I am making the point that I will not support my country no matter what. I was born here by random accident, it's important to recognize that.

What you also fail to understand is that you owe this country a debt. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the decisions the politicians are taking at any particular moment, you grew up here. Your family raised you here. You were educated through considerable taxpayer expense, your ties are here. The collective wellbeing of our citizenry is not a political matter.

You wouldn't help someone murder someone else because you owed them money would you.

If you think some ****ing warped idea (and you are seriously gone in the head on your idea of a noble cause) is a just cause for you to desert the nation that has supported you all your life, and kill the people who defend it, you're really nothing more than scum of the earth. Lowest of the low.
And if these Venezuelans you fantasise about fighting for had any sense, they'd kill you when the war was over to prevent you switching loyalties again the moment something doesn't go your way.

I wouldn't switch loyalties, my loyalties lie, and always have with the welfare of my common man. Irrelevant of borders.

You claim to know so much about the world, but you're so goddamn stupid. There is no such thing as a "just cause" in international relations. Each country has its own interests, acts in its own interests, and the military is the force which acts to protect that country's interests.
No country is perfect, and none are particularly good-natured either, but as far as nations go, ours comes out pretty well.

Thats why I support an ideology rather than a nation.

If your moronic, tragic, oppressive ideas of a "just cause" are more important to you than the well-being of your fellow citizens, you should just leave right now. You don't deserve to live here.

No the well being of my fellow citizens is important to me, just no more than the well being of other people.

No, the kind of man who puts his own ridiculous concepts of right and wrong above personal loyalties. You're the kind of person who would befriend someone when it suits you and then stab them in the back when you have no further use for them.

That's totally false and pointless discussing as short of introducing you to my friends there's no way I can defend myself here.

Your true colours are really starting to surface. You're not only clueless and naive, but an immoral, untrustworthy snake.

Sigged

 

[Solaris]

Btw the writings of Christopher hitches made me change my mind.

 

[repiV]

And I would be eternally thankful for that. However, most of the wars Britian has been engaged in, in the last century have not been defensive wars against those who would take my freedom. Rather they were to defend British capital interests and as a socialist, that is not something I will ever thank someone for fighting for.

British capital interests pay for your education and your minimum wage. Stop being a hypocrite and taking advantage of the wealth you so despise.

It's one thing to disagree with the country's foreign policy, it's quite another to suggest that our troops deserve to die because you don't happen to agree with it at the time. You can disagree with the way the country is run and still support the country, but you on the other hand would rather turn against it.

In any case, you're a part of this country and British capital interests are also your capital interests. Britain's wars are fought to benefit you, whether or not they are misguided or whether you agree with them or not. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and give half your earnings to Oxfam?

No I wouldn't, I don't think the British people would stand for that. But hypothetically, I am making the point that I will not support my country no matter what.

You said you'd go and fight for Venezuela if we went to war with them. Stop flip-flopping.

I was born here by random accident, it's important to recognize that.

So what? It's the UK that's given you all your advantages in life. It's your British family that's raised you. It's British money that's funded your education and life of considerable luxury. You were also born to your parents by random accident, that doesn't mean you can just abandon them.
You are not entitled to just take, take, take without giving anything back - as so many of your generation seem to believe they have all the rights and no responsibilities. You have a loyalty to this country.

You wouldn't help someone murder someone else because you owed them money would you.

The point is, even if you have a difference of opinion with your friends, you don't turn against them.

I wouldn't switch loyalties, my loyalties lie, and always have with the welfare of my common man. Irrelevant of borders.

Evidently not, as you support ideologies that are a detriment to the welfare of "your common man", and you believe that these should be forced upon people whether they want it or not.
You don't care about anyone else, it just makes you feel good to be different and support something you see as "just". The actual effect it would have on the world means nothing to you, you think of yourself as some kind of fairytale freedom fighter.

Thats why I support an ideology rather than a nation.

Ideologies are fickle things. By abandoning the network of people that is our country in search of your "ideology", you put your personal beliefs above the needs of the people.
If your loyalty is to an ideology, and not to your friends/country/etc., you will never, ever be a person deserving of trust. For you would break that trust as soon as your friends deviate from your ideology.

No the well being of my fellow citizens is important to me, just no more than the well being of other people.

It's your fellow citizens that you owe a debt to. If you would turn on us to support your latest fad somewhere else, we cannot trust you. You are part of our group, but perhaps you should not be.
In fact if you were trying to immigrate to the UK, your beliefs would be more than enough to deny you citizenship.

That's totally false and pointless discussing as short of introducing you to my friends there's no way I can defend myself here.

You've said so yourself. You don't attach any particular importance to anyone, you'll run with whoever happens to be aligned with your twisted beliefs at the time. Your loyalties are to your own beliefs, not to anybody else.
That makes you untrustworthy. You don't abandon your friends just because they stray from your personal ideals.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with RepiV. I'm not particulary nationalistic, but to say that you would go and fight for venezuela instead of the country that has given you everything, your education, health care, career, etc. is not only astonshing, but a little upsetting.

 

[Solaris]

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with RepiV. I'm not particulary nationalistic, but to say that you would go and fight for venezuela instead of the country that has given you everything, your education, health care, career, etc. is not only astonshing, but a little upsetting.

What if I were in Nazi germany and wanted to leave to fight for the allies?

Clearly that reasoning is false.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Would you be willing to kill British soldiers if you disagreed with what the government sent them to do?

 

[mastapenguin]

This whole conversation hurts my brain.

Supporting troops? Thats a strange concept. Do you think the troops fight better based solely on the worded convictions of the people at home? If we really wanted to "support" our troops, if the Bush administration really wanted to "support" our troops, they would have reinstated war bonds and rationing. He could have stood in front of a nation and told us that this war would require sacrifice on everyone's part, and we would have followed. Instead, we throw vitriol at each other depending on the number of flags hanging outside our front door.

And "supporting" our troops certainly doesn't involve agreeing with what they're fighting for. "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it". Thats something the US was based on, its basically the principle behind the US armed forces. And, like it or not, our government decided to go to war. Fine. But the execution has been something appalling, with hundreds of thousands dead throughout the region to accomplish, according to most international sources, not all that much.

Citizens in a democracy owe it to their country to voice their opinions. I am opposed to the war in Iraq. But that is balanced by the understanding that the people fighting are fighting for me. Those men and women are still fighting and dying for the sake of the citizens of the US, whether those citizens wanted it or not. The question is not whether or not we LIKE the troops. It is a question of what can we, as civilians, do to bring as many of them home as is possible as quickly as we can.

Edit: The troops are never to blame for an amoral war. NEVER. Soldier, by definition, follow orders. Soldiers that DON'T follow orders, who have attacks of conscience on a regular basis, get themselves and their friends killed. So, when soldiers commit crimes of war, its always the Commanding Officers who should be blamed, because they were the ones who ordered the soldiers to commit those crimes. Nazi soldiers, the rank and file, were perfectly normal people. They fought in order to defend the glorious Fatherland and their families and friends, kind of like the US soldiers fight for Country and Mom's apple pie. So disagreeing with a cause is poor reason to kill the soldiers, because the soldiers have NOTHING to do with it.

Besides, your Nazi Germany analogy is deeply flawed. In Nazi Germany, you would certainly be killed for opposing the war. Britain? I don't know about your pride and your e-mail inbox, but the government probably won't kill you for expressing your opinion. Which isn't to say you shouldn't watch out for deranged radicals with opposing views, but you get those EVERYWHERE.

 

[Pesmerga]

No one's right. War is a business and if you think there are nobler causes than that, you've seen too many movies.