Israeli soldiers speak out

BREAKING NEWS: NOT EVERYONE RETARDED

FILM AT 11

Seriously though, I'm getting pretty tired of treating Israelis and Palestinians as these homogenous groups.
No shit that not everyone agrees with the policies of their governments. I'm not one to drop the R-Bomb (although I do, constantly) but why on Earth would this surprise anyone who isn't retarded?

Like I'm going to make a thread right now with a Youtube video and the title "SWISS MAN DISLIKES CHOCOLATE, CHEESE".


That being said, I'm glad this isn't an extremely blurry .jpeg with a red arrow pointing to one of the pixels and JEW? underlined beside it.
 
Ah the obligatory poke fun post. But yes this is legit and they are part of a wider group of Israeli's speaking out on some very disturbing behaviour within the Israeli government. I'm not saying that the Palestinians havn't done some horrible stuff but I watch this and it is particularly indicting testimony.
 
clarky003 said:
Ah the obligatory poke fun post. But yes this is legit and they are part of a wider group of Israeli's speaking out on some very disturbing behaviour within the Israeli government. I'm not saying that the Palestinians havn't done some horrible stuff but I watch this and it is particularly indicting testimony.
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The difference between the Palestinians and the Israeli's in this conflict, is that the Israeli soldiers are doing their job, what they are told to do by being a member of their military forces. In such a situation, you are undoubtedly going to find protestors within that don't want to do what they're doing.

With the Palestinians... you're talking about a group of pure volunteers here, that only take things as far as they want to go with them in their violence. Thus... you're not going to have any complaints of lack of morality coming from the bombers themselves... just the innocent non militant civilians that might speak out against what they're doing. In a sense, not the actual people doing the warfare on the part of the palestinian side.
 
Nice to see some Israeli soldiers speak out against what's happening because it's horrific, I just wish these soldiers had the courage to refuse to follow orders because what Israel is doing is indefensible. Sure, I don't condone suicide bombings but I am not surprised that so many people are driven to it given the hell hole Israel have made of palestine.
 
Cowardice counts as courage in your world?
 
Solaris said:
Nice to see some Israeli soldiers speak out against what's happening because it's horrific, I just wish these soldiers had the courage to refuse to follow orders because what Israel is doing is indefensible. Sure, I don't condone suicide bombings but I am not surprised that so many people are driven to it given the hell hole Israel have made of palestine.
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Although you have in the past said suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic.
 
Raziaar said:
Although you have in the past said suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic.
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I have NEVER said military action against civilians, people have again and again accused me of it, yet I've never said it because its a despicable thing. Innocent civilians are not a legitimate target.
 
Yet Hezbollah routinely used human shields in the Lebanon conflict, which is the primary reason for the civilian casualties in that war.
Furthermore, they continually fired rockets indiscriminately into Israeli population centres.
They are directly responsible for the majority of the civilian casualties, and actively set out to murder innocents, and yet you champion them as heroes. Hypocritical, ignorant or both?
 
repiV said:
Yet Hezbollah routinely used human shields in the Lebanon conflict, which is the primary reason for the civilian casualties in that war.
They are directly responsible for the majority of the civilian casualties, and yet you champion them as heroes.
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Yes, because I support Hezbullah... not.

Stop throwing your damn lies onto me, I have never supported Hizbullah or Suicide bombings or any murder of civilians. I have sympathized with them, explained how I believe the blame lies with Isreal, defended their right to to fight back, but I do not condone there targeting of civilians.
 
Solaris said:
Yes, because I support Hezbullah... not.

Stop throwing your damn lies onto me, I have never supported Hizbullah or Suicide bombings or any murder of civilians. I have sympathized with them, explained how I believe the blame lies with Isreal, defended their right to to fight back, but I do not condone there targeting of civilians.
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You think Israel is the aggressor?
Nemesis6 quite soundly destroyed you on that topic with indisputable factual evidence, and yet you still cling to your fantasies. Why even bother discussing anything if you ignore facts?
 
Solaris said:
I have NEVER said military action against civilians, people have again and again accused me of it, yet I've never said it because its a despicable thing. Innocent civilians are not a legitimate target.
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This is all I said... It can't be disputed. I didn't say the other thing. Though in the past I have questioned your moralities by saying it's a legitimate tactic to bomb soldiers like that... when those very bombers prefer to target civilians indiscriminately. At least... their record speaks for themselves anyways.

Although you have in the past said suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic.
Click to expand...
 
Wouldn't surprise me if he was a member of Yesh Ha'Gvul or something. Anyway, these kinds of things do happen. That there's a minority of people who abuse that power is not uncommon anywhere. However, in the majority of the cases, like this here - http://onlyinisrael.blogspot.com/2005/07/story-of-phone.html
, the matters are handled sensibly. Well, as sensibly as a possible suicide bomber can be handled. I can't help but remember the boy that was sent to an Israeli checkpoint to blow himself and others up. He surrendered, and the Israeli troops disarmed the bomb, wrapped him in a blanket, and took him away. Why do I mention this you might be asking, well, those are the cases we do not hear about unless a photographer and/or a reporter just happens to be on the set when checkpoints are attacked.
 
repiV said:
You think Israel is the aggressor?
Nemesis6 quite soundly destroyed you on that topic with indisputable factual evidence, and yet you still cling to your fantasies. Why even bother discussing anything if you ignore facts?
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No he didn't. I remember that thread, he did terribly.
 
Who in the name of babyback Jesus gives a goddamn about who the initial agressor was anymore.

The Israeli government with its huge military is taking over the land in immoral ways. Palestinian people with pretty much shit for military are immorally suicide bombing against it. If Israel had no military, they're suicide themselves to shit. If Palestine had nukes, unlimited American support and cutting-edge technology they'd be throwing their weight around colonializing people's shit too.

Who cares who started it in the past when they're both tremendous douchelands here in this magical place I call the present day?

Nemesis et al, if there were no suicide bombers, would you still be so gung-ho about Israel illegally taking over chunks of other people's countries? Is this really your idea of a fun time? "Oh those dumb palestinians are killing themselves for no reason. They are so dumb and evil let's nuke Lebanon so that they won't hate us anymore, DURRRRR."
Oh what's that you say Raziaar? "They're just doing their job"?
Well shit you are right, no-one just doing their job has ever done anything evil. Ever.

Then Solaris & His Talking Car, when the hell is suicide bombing ever a bright strategy? It makes your freedom fighters look like the bunch of indefensible retards they are, because no scrap of land is worth over half a century of bloodshed, no matter how many angels shat their pixie dust on it. You want victory in Palestine? MOVE YOUR SELF OUT OF THAT HELLHOLE. There's a victory for you.

Israel too. Move the hell out and give the smouldering remains to Belgium because BELGIUM MAKES SENSE. They very well deserve it, which is more than I can say for either of your lost causes.

You're both cheerleading the losing team, when even the Special Goddamn Olympics manages to make everyone a winner.

Seriously.
 
Mecha,

I agree with you, whoever 'started it' is not really relevant seen as that was 40-50years ago. What is important is what's happening now.

Right now, Israel is effectively raping Palestine and the Palestinian people, the Palestinian economy is destroyed, people are living in poverty, Israel is grabbing land everywhere, creating settlements, setting up checkpoints splitting up family's, preventing access to hospitals, firing on ambulances. If I had my way the whole Israeli government would be tried for crimes against humanity. It's unforgivable what Israel have done, and continues to do.

And with regards to suicide bombing, what else can the Palestinian resistance do? Isreal gets an absolute fortune to spend on choppers, troops, all sorts of killing machines. They use these weapons to kill indiscriminately, many Palestinians fight back with whatever they get their hands on. Some of them, through religious extremism and living in such horrific circumstances choose to suicide bomb military and civilian targets. I don't condone the killing of civilians, but I support all those who would take up arms against the state of Israel. All people have a right to live freely, Israel deny Palestinians this right on a daily basis and I call those who fight such a brutal occupation just.
 
Solaris said:
And with regards to suicide bombing, what else can the Palestinian resistance do? Isreal gets an absolute fortune to spend on choppers, troops, all sorts of killing machines. They use these weapons to kill indiscriminately, many Palestinians fight back with whatever they get their hands on. Some of them, through religious extremism and living in such horrific circumstances choose to suicide bomb military and civilian targets. I don't condone the killing of civilians, but I support all those who would take up arms against the state of Israel. All people have a right to live freely, Israel deny Palestinians this right on a daily basis and I call those who fight such a brutal occupation just.
Click to expand...

I dunno... adopt a life of peace, show your intentions for good will and living peacefully in cooperation... and hmm... maybe focus primarily on peaceful negotiations with the Israeli government? Every time there is a suicide bombing, it throws any possible favorable outcomes out the window.
 
Raziaar said:
I dunno... adopt a life of peace, show your intentions for good will and living peacefully in cooperation... and hmm... maybe focus primarily on peaceful negotiations with the Israeli government? Every time there is a suicide bombing, it throws any possible favorable outcomes out the window.
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A life on peace? How?

How do you negotiate with somebody whose expanding onto your land and shoots unarmed people without hesitation. Israel don't want peace.
 
Solaris said:
A life on peace? How?

How do you negotiate with somebody whose expanding onto your land and shoots unarmed people without hesitation. Israel don't want peace.
Click to expand...

Israel is not out there shooting unarmed people intentionally.

"Oh look... it's an unarmed woman and her child... it's happy trigger time! Wooo weee!" <fires up into the air, then at woman and child>


That's an example of what you describe basically, that doesn't happen. Accidents do happen... when you have two groups conflicting with each other, citizens WILL get hurt, and it is a very unfortunate thing. However, it is unavoidable if both sides won't work together completely peacefully.

It's obvious that the Israel soldiers, when a civilian is killed... it is a grave misunderstanding or genuine accident, rather than the intentional bombings that kill themselves and as many civilians around them, such as the palestinian suicide bombers do.

If Israel really did not want peace, and just loved to kill palestinian citizens willy nilly, you would hear of grave massacres constantly on the media. Israel has already shown they don't care what the world thinks, when they went and invaded Lebanon... what makes you think they would suddenly stay on the low side to avoid bad publicity? If the Israeli intent was really to just slaughter palestinians... there wouldn't BE any issue there, because all the palestinians would be long dead.

Very few people on this planet, all things considered... enjoy killing human beings, or go out of their way to do so. To believe that Israel somehow has an unprecedented percentage of wanton murderers, is insane. You have soldiers there that are doing their job, and are having to deal with unconventional warfare in urban environments. That is a RECIPE for disasters... and thus the reason you see accidental shootings and bombings of civilian targets. If the Israeli military set down all their weapons and just stood completely passive, it's not like the bombers would cease their aggressions. No matter what you think about the overall intentions of the Israeli Government, they at least deserve the ability to protect their citizens from unlawful attackers, but should also strive to keep down as much collateral civilian casualties as possible.

Using violence will NOT make Israel think about giving land back. if they stopped using violence completely, Israel would probably consider it. They'd rather have their civilians safe than continuing their defensive/aggressive campaign against the palestinian militants.
 
Raz, there you go again.

"It's not their fault that civilians die. They're just constantly throwing themselves into situations where civilian deaths are inevitable."
It's not our fault the areas we bomb are populated DRUUURRR.

And solaris, do you really give a shit about the holy land? It's a religious conflict, pretty much 100%. You can't in all honesty support the fundamentalist motivation and ignore the inevitable results. That's the same shit Raz is doing.
"I support the batshit fundamentalist Muslim holy war but not the constant suicide bombings which are pretty much their only (Quran-approved) tactics. Also we will keep clinging civilians to the area because we love martyrdom so much"

Seriously, give up. If Palestine just leaves the goddamn place and never fights again, Israel will be revealed for the land-grabbing nutzo-land it is. Not only that, but they'll lose american support when the rapture doesn't come.
Being equally nutzo helps abso****inglutely no-one.

Honestly now, who here supporting either side is actually a jew or muslim?

So then why the hell are you taking sides in what is quite possibly the biggest retarded religious fiasco the world has ever known?
 
"It's not their fault that civilians die. They're just constantly throwing themselves into situations where civilian deaths are inevitable."
It's not our fault the areas we bomb are populated DRUUURRR.
Click to expand...

Did I say it's not their fault, or that they shouldn't be held accountable? No... I said it's not their intent to actually kill the civilians.

Why do you think I've been saying that both sides should work together peacefully? I don't like all the deaths that happen, on either side of the conflict. They can be avoided, if both sides stop their endless cycle of aggression.
 
Palestine is not a side, it is a group of people too poor to move out.

What do you want the people to do? I'm sure if they had the money they would try and move for a better life, but they don't. Their homeland is under occupation, their freinds and family are killed, homes demolished and ambulances blown up.

What can they do? Why shouldn't they fight back?
 
Solaris said:
Palestine is not a side, it is a group of people too poor to move out.

What do you want the people to do? I'm sure if they had the money they would try and move for a better life, but they don't. Their homeland is under occupation, their freinds and family are killed, homes demolished and ambulances blown up.

What can they do? Why shouldn't they fight back?
Click to expand...

See... that sort of mentality creates an ENDLESS cycle of violence. One group blows something up, or kills some people... then the other does the same, perhaps even at a greater level. This spurs the first group to do it again, and it just goes back and forth, back and forth.

The losers in all this? Innocent civilians. Israel should cease their aggression and seek to rebuild up their lands so that everybody can live peacefully together, with proper amenities all around. And Palestinian militants should stop blowing themselves up and as many innocents as they can take with them for some cushy seat in heaven surrounded by virgins. Spend that energy helping your family build a better life for themselves here, on earth.
 
I know what you meant Raz, but your point was that they were only intentionally creating accidents. That's pretty much criminal negligence.


Nobody is too poor to move. Surely they've got enough supporters around the world to just back that junk up. They aren't staying because they're poor. They are staying because this bloodstained wonderland is holy.

Why shouldn't they fight back? Because fighting back has failed, consistently, for well over 50 years now and has made them pretty much synonymous with "oppressed minority that goes way too far in defending itself."

Aw boo hoo their homeland. You know, I have a sentimental attachment to the teddy bear I had when I was six, but I'd still toss it into a wheat thresher if it would stop MASS-GODDAMN-MURDERINESS.
 
Raziaar said:
See... that sort of mentality creates an ENDLESS cycle of violence. One group blows something up, or kills some people... then the other does the same, perhaps even at a greater level. This spurs the first group to do it again, and it just goes back and forth, back and forth.
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There's no endless cycle of violence. Israel are not reacting in this conflict, they are seeking to expand their terrortories and are slowly building more and more settlements in Palestinian lands.
 
Raziaar said:
Did I say it's not their fault, or that they shouldn't be held accountable? No... I said it's not their intent to actually kill the civilians.
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yes it is, why else would they fire in heavily populated areas? they cant all be mistakes
 
CptStern said:
yes it is, why else would they fire in heavily populated areas? they cant all be mistakes
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Solaris is talking about the WHOLE of the Israeli arms forces.

We already know not all Israeli soldiers are the demons that certain people make them out to be, as this thread indicates. But those who don't speak out, aren't monsters either. They might just not have the courage to do so.

But with any large group, you're going to have nut jobs and just crazed people, as we have seen many times with the American military in Iraq and their treatment of prisoners, etc.

No doubt the Israeli armed forces have their own such people. But that doesn't make them all monsters seeking to accrue experience points by slaying that next biggest group of Palestinian civilians.
 
Raziaar said:
Solaris is talking about the WHOLE of the Israeli arms forces.
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I didn't say they were evil, I do however hold them responsible for helping maintain the Israeli occupation.
But with any large group, you're going to have nut jobs and just crazed people, as we have seen many times with the American military in Iraq and their treatment of prisoners, etc.

No doubt the Israeli armed forces have their own such people. But that doesn't make them all monsters seeking to accrue experience points by slaying that next biggest group of Palestinian civilians.
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It's not 'just a few' its the whole damn policy, have you seen the video?
 
Raziaar said:
Solaris is talking about the WHOLE of the Israeli arms forces.

We already know not all Israeli soldiers are the demons that certain people make them out to be, as this thread indicates. But those who don't speak out, aren't monsters either. They might just not have the courage to do so.

But with any large group, you're going to have nut jobs and just crazed people, as we have seen many times with the American military in Iraq and their treatment of prisoners, etc.

No doubt the Israeli armed forces have their own such people. But that doesn't make them all monsters seeking to accrue experience points by slaying that next biggest group of Palestinian civilians.
Click to expand...



artillery isnt fired by one person ...it takes more than one person to fly a gunship. Coordinates always come from central command
 
You shouldn't open your mouth, Solaris. You have stated that you believe ALL Israelis are "bastards" and that they have killed thousands of Palestinian children, which, of course, is a lie. So you're both a liar and an antiSemite. Plus you're a pinko which explains why you're oblivious to your own mistakes and stonewall all attempts to reason with you and anything that might prove you wrong, like RepiV's post.


Mecha, you do not know the law, so you can't tell what's illegal. But I'll tell you this much - Taking territory from an aggressor after defeating him is not illegal.
 
i think probably all the suicide bombers, got nothing else to lose, so why not go bomb yourself.

the leaders say this is holy ground and we have to fight for it, while they sit miles away from the conflict.
 
Ok, Stern, the reason there's nothing left is because the state has already been created. Here's a crash course -

Orignally, Israel was to be much larger, including what is now Jordan. But this was cut off, and Trans-Jordan was created. Trans-Jordan implies that it's on the other side of the Jordan river. When Jordan took East-Jerusalem, the name was changed to Jordan because it was no longer on the other side, but on both sides. But anyway, Trans-Jordan was created on the majority of the landmass referred to as Palestine. Israel had lost over 50% of the proposed size. After that, the plan came to devide the rest of Palestine(the 25% that hadn't been given to Jordan.). This was during the late 40s. The Arabs launched their attacks against Israel from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They were then beaten back. And what happened after that was that the territory that was originally supposed to have been an Arab-Palestinian state, the West Bank and Gaza, were gobbled up by Egypt and Jordan. You wanna talk about illegal, talk about that. The Palestinians already have a state. They want one more. Their fellow Arabs could have created it for them. Yet, they didn't mind that Jordan stole the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip.
 
Nemesis6 said:
Ok, Stern, the reason there's nothing left is because the state has already been created. Here's a crash course -

Orignally, Israel was to be much larger, including what is now Jordan. But this was cut off, and Trans-Jordan was created. Trans-Jordan implies that it's on the other side of the Jordan river. When Jordan took East-Jerusalem, the name was changed to Jordan because it was no longer on the other side, but on both sides. But anyway, Trans-Jordan was created on the majority of the landmass referred to as Palestine. Israel had lost over 50% of the proposed size. After that, the plan came to devide the rest of Palestine(the 25% that hadn't been given to Jordan.). This was during the late 40s. The Arabs launched their attacks against Israel from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They were then beaten back. And what happened after that was that the territory that was originally supposed to have been an Arab-Palestinian state, the West Bank and Gaza, were gobbled up by Egypt and Jordan. You wanna talk about illegal, talk about that. The Palestinians already have a state. They want one more. Their fellow Arabs could have created it for them. Yet, they didn't mind that Jordan stole the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip.
Click to expand...



the maps dont support a word of what you just said, just compare the land mass from the original UN partition to the current one

UN partition:

http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png


current map:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/conflict/images/israel_map.gif


all the land that was formerly arab state is now in the hands of israel
 
I does understand this "law" phenomenemon. What Stern said, basically.


People have yet to provide a single reason why their particular cause deserves the area more than Belgium does.
(Remember: Belgium makes sense.)
 
Uh oh, Israel is going to try and takeover the entire world starting with their neighbors (who coincidently hated them as a race), and the palistinians are trying to annialate all the jews living in the small chunk of land that was designated for them called israel. Now which one sounds realistic honestly, israel is not on the offensive, they are unquestionably in a state of war, a war where the opposing side uses guerilla tactics and suicide bombings. How do you defend against that. In my opinion you have to strike fear into the opposers and in order to do that: "Big unit action may sometimes be necessary. If police action is not sufficient to stop insurgents, military sweeps may be necessary. Such "big battalion" operations may be needed to break up significant guerrilla concentrations and split them into small groups where combined civic-military action can control them."(wikipedia)
Sound familiar? Obviously some civilian casualties are inevitable, do you honestly think that Israel is competing with the palistinians, seeing if they can kill more civilians? I think we all know who the biggest contributer is...I understand was everyone is upset about and i think it's just due to the fact that in general people are not looking at the conflict as a whole, instead people are focusing on the stories that sell, like, "hashem killed the palistinian boy in the middle of a firefight." I hate to say this but amidst war some civilian casualties are somewhat inevitable, it's very sad but cannot be stopped, a treaty might temporarily solve this problem but how many middle-eastern treaties have lasted, I believe the eye for and eye mentality will never be broken in between Israel and the Palistinians, so what does it really come down to. Well, in my opinion one of the only things that sways my support either way is who is intentionally targeting civilians and who isn't? And the answer is, Israel isn't and the Palistinians are.

Absinthe: I'll admit I was, due to the fact that I said some hateful words; however i'm doing my best to abide by the rules now.:angel:
 
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