Justice Without Her Blindfold Is Just Vengeance

[Ravioli]

It seems like the overall punishment of criminals has gone to far in some cases and has leaped into the realm of vengeance. Punishment should be blind justice, justice without any emotional inputs. What do you think? Heres an intressting video just to get it kinda in perspective, pretty much sums up my views about the thing, please watch before posting!


Lots of cursing and anger, but whatever, you get the point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bcKBjaph9Y

 

[Irksome]

What revolution?

As for the kid being sentenced to 60 years...boo hoo - maybe it's excessive if he doesn't have the possibility of parole in say 10 or 20 years but he kidnapped and raped a 6 year old - thats enough to send anyone, regardless of age, away to prison for a lengthy period of time.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Umm, there's some moral and ethically problems I have with Irksomes statement.

Criminals should be fixed -- murder is the only thing I'd say warrants an extreme, but first, a case must be review extensively.

 

[Solaris]

The perpetrator of a crime is also a victim.

 

[repiV]

The perpetrator of a crime is also a victim.

No.

Also, people who blame everyone else for their own problems are ****ing wankers. Boo-hoo, mister criminal has a hard life. So do I, who cares?

 

[Tagaziel]

The perpetrator of a crime is also a victim.

Please die.

 

[Llama]

No.

Also, people who blame everyone else for their own problems are ****ing wankers. Boo-hoo, mister criminal has a hard life. So do I, who cares?

Couldn't have put it better.

No, someone who kidnaps and rapes a six year old is not a victim. Any previous problems they may or may not have had does not make them any less human for taking part in an action such as this.

If you rape anyone, let alone an utterly defencless child, you are less than human, so therefore you should be punished.

To be honest, I'm thrilled that he got 60 years. Seems like an appropraite sentence. None of this "let's give a life sentence of less than 20 years" bullshit. Life should be life. Infact, I'm disgusted at this prick for being so stupid in the video.

I hope he rots there until his last few years when he's too old to survive on his own, let alone commit a crime.

 

[repiV]

Couldn't have put it better.

No, someone who kidnaps and rapes a six year old is not a victim. Any previous problems they may or may not have had does not make them any less human for taking part in an action such as this.

If you rape anyone, let alone an utterly defencless child, you are less than human, so therefore you should be punished.

To be honest, I'm thrilled that he got 60 years. Seems like an appropraite sentence. None of this "let's give a life sentence of less than 20 years" bullshit. Life should be life. Infact, I'm disgusted at this prick for being so stupid in the video.

I hope he rots there until his last few years when he's too old to survive on his own, let alone commit a crime.

Quite. Major gripe of mine though is the amount of money the state spends on prisoners, something ridiculous like 25k per year. You go into hospital and you have to pay 3 quid a day to have access to a crappy selection of TV channels, go to prison and you get ****ing Sky Digital for free.
Three times as much money is spent per head on prisoners' meals than school dinners.
What gives?

 

[Eejit]

If you rape anyone, let alone an utterly defencless child, you are less than human, so therefore you should be punished.

To be honest, I'm thrilled that he got 60 years. Seems like an appropraite sentence. None of this "let's give a life sentence of less than 20 years" bullshit. Life should be life.

I'd be fine with the sentence if it wasn't passed on a ****ing minor...

There's a goddamn reason minors are treated differently by the law, or are meant to be.

 

[Llama]

Quite. Major gripe of mine though is the amount of money the state spends on prisoners, something ridiculous like 25k per year. You go into hospital and you have to pay 3 quid a day to have access to a crappy selection of TV channels, go to prison and you get ****ing Sky Digital for free.
Three times as much money is spent per head on prisoners' meals than school dinners.
What gives?

Stupid decisions all round.
I mean hell, there is one prison in the USA that keeps it's prisoners fed on (the equivalent of) roughly 10 pence a day, yet we are paying thousands of dollars for Ian Huntley.
It's ridiculous

I'd be fine with the sentence if it wasn't passed on a ****ing minor...

There's a goddamn reason minors are treated differently by the law, or are meant to be.

Bullshit.

I remember having an argument with repiV about minors and the ability to understand moral concepts. I got a sound thrashing in that argument. (It was about choosing to have sex, or something or other)

However, this is the other extreme. The age of the kid (13) means jack shit. You do not need to be older than 13 to know that raping a small child is WRONG.

It's pathetic, trying to let the kid off because he was "only 13", that's ****ing bollocks to put it bluntly, everyone in the western world knows it's wrong by the age of 13.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

The fact that he knew what rape was, how to do it, and had the urges too means he must have known it was wrong. He's old enough to know.

 

[Llama]

The fact that he knew what rape was, how to do it, and had the urges too means he must have known it was wrong. He's old enough to know.

Thread over

 

[Mr Stabby]

He deserves to be hanged.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

He deserves to be hanged.

Or, he could just be locked up for life and we could not dehumanise ourselves.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Or, he could just be locked up for life and we could not dehumanise ourselves.

How is that dehumanizing, by sexually assaulting a child, he dehumanized himself.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Because we're only making ourselves as bad as him.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Because we're only making ourselves as bad as him.

No we're not, he attacked an innocent person, that's entirely different to punishing a criminal.

 

[Eejit]

The fact that he knew what rape was, how to do it, and had the urges too means he must have known it was wrong. He's old enough to know.

Get the hell off your high horse, how do you know that?

My father has worked as a social worker with abused children for over 30 years and that is not necessarily true. He's worked with kids who were so messed up by their dad that they would offer to have sex with anyone they formed a friendship with in school and think nothing of it. That's an extreme case but this kind of stuff does happen.


So NO just because someone is 13 doesn't necessarily mean they understand it is wrong and clearly none of you understand the degree to which a person's morals and understanding can be deranged by an abusive parent.

Yes it was bad, but again, he's a minor. The law sees them differently. It does and it should, and no matter how bad the crime you can't treat them the same as an adult.

 

[Pesmerga]

Punishment for crimes should be directed as specified by law. Justice should be blind. Infact, I'm not entirely sure why the defense needs to show his or her face in the courtroom- all it does is create a bias for the judge. The courtroom should be a lights out issue- or the defense and prosecution should be hidden from view.

Judges determine the punishments for criminals- they should be among the most honorable men in the country. They should judge without bias and without emotion.

But if the law says you can sentence a 15 year old boy to 60 years in prison, so be it. That's a matter you should take to the legislature.

 

[Gray Fox]

Generally I'm more disturbed by the laks punishments.
This does seem to steep, at his age you are still pretty impressionable. You still look for guidance in older people. And most people at that age aren't capable of knowing the full consequences of their actions.
Therapy and 10 to 20 would seem more fair.

 

[Llama]

Get the hell off your high horse, how do you know that?

My father has worked as a social worker with abused children for over 30 years and that is not necessarily true. He's worked with kids who were so messed up by their dad that they would offer to have sex with anyone they formed a friendship with in school and think nothing of it. That's an extreme case but this kind of stuff does happen.


So NO just because someone is 13 doesn't necessarily mean they understand it is wrong and clearly none of you understand the degree to which a person's morals and understanding can be deranged by an abusive parent.

Yes it was bad, but again, he's a minor. The law sees them differently. It does and it should, and no matter how bad the crime you can't treat them the same as an adult.

Oh for heavens sake, use some common sense.

Is there any mention of any abuse of the guilty party prior to the incident? No.
Is there any mention of the guilty party being mentally subnormal? No.

These would be helping factors for the defendant, so why are they not mentioned?

Because they don't bloody exist. This kid was not abused. He evidently understood what he was doing.

RAPE IS NOT A CONCEPT THAT REQUIRES AN ADULT MIND TO UNDERSTAND

The lad explicitly stated he decided to "rape her"

Why are you defending this scum?

 

[Gray Fox]

But there is a difference between being able to understand how to do something and the consequences to you and the other person in question. Seeing as his 13 years old 60 years seems to steep.

 

[Raziaar]

Maybe justice without her blindfold would stop ruining the lives of innocents. You ever think about that? You can't pick someone out on a lineup when you can't see!



/notserious

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

pointless stuff

Yeah, but he wasn't abused; he doesn't have mental problems; and he specifically wanted to rape her. Perhaps you should read the article before telling people to get off their high horse.

 

[Eejit]

No, someone who kidnaps and rapes a six year old is not a victim. Any previous problems they may or may not have had does not make them any less human for taking part in an action such as this.

It's pathetic, trying to let the kid off because he was "only 13", that's ****ing bollocks to put it bluntly, everyone in the western world knows it's wrong by the age of 13.

I was mainly thinking of this. Which is 100% wrong.

Nothing I've read says one way or another if he was abused. It seems likely to me though.

But if the law says you can sentence a 15 year old boy to 60 years in prison, so be it. That's a matter you should take to the legislature.

They decided to try him as an adult. And the sentence was 60 years because the little girl asked for that length of a sentence.

 

[RidleyRockets]

7 year olds understand when something is wrong or right. Should they be treated as adults in a court of law?

 

[Llama]

7 year olds understand when something is wrong or right. Should they be treated as adults in a court of law?

I wasn't aware of any 7 year olds raping people. Silly me, I guess you must have something of value to add to this discussion rather than silly sarcastic questions.

There is a massive increase in judgement between 7 and 13.
A 13 year old's brain =/= a 7 seven year old's brain.

I was mainly thinking of this. Which is 100% wrong.

Nothing I've read says one way or another if he was abused. It seems likely to me though.

I'll rephrase that.
Everyone of sufficient mental condition would know it's wrong. You can hide behind this as much as you want but the fact is there is no evidence to support abuse, so please stop relying on it.

 

[Solaris]

I challenge repriV to provide evidence for his claim that prisoners get 'Sky digital' for free. Sounds like BS to me.

When a 15 year old child commits a crime like rape, especially in such disgusting circumstances as this, it is clear that this child did not have a good upbringing. Children don't randomly chose to become rapists or murderers, it comes from years of neglect, poverty, sexual abuse and other things no child should experience culminating in twisting the psyche of a child to the extent where they have no moral principles or sense of right and wrong.

A society that produces such children is a sick and broken society and needs to be repaired. Whilst it would be easy to demonise the child and call for him to be hanged or incarcerated for 50 years we need to see past the veil of emotion that the circumstances of his crime has put over our eyes and see what we can do so that such a thing never re-occurs.

Any child that commits rape has been failed by society, society has not fulfilled it's obligations for the welfare and protection of children and the crime mentioned in this thread is a symptom of this that must be rectified.

 

[RidleyRockets]

I wasn't aware of any 7 year olds raping people. Silly me, I guess you must have something of value to add to this discussion rather than silly sarcastic questions.

It wasn't sarcasm. I was looking to see where you think the line is drawn.

9 year old charged with rape.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=708522006

There are also cases of kids as young as 8, 9 and 10 year olds killing other young children.

There is a massive increase in judgement between 7 and 13.
A 13 year old's brain =/= a 7 seven year old's brain.

Does the brain stop developing at 13? There is a difference between a 13 year olds judgement and a 30 year olds. Where is the line drawn? If it is drawn at the age where a sense of wrong and right is present then you should see no problem with 8 year old children serving life for murder.

 

[repiV]

I challenge repriV to provide evidence for his claim that prisoners get 'Sky digital' for free. Sounds like BS to me.

No idea where I would look such things up. It's no secret that modern prisons are almost like a holiday camp.

When a 15 year old child commits a crime like rape, especially in such disgusting circumstances as this, it is clear that this child did not have a good upbringing. Children don't randomly chose to become rapists or murderers, it comes from years of neglect, poverty, sexual abuse and other things no child should experience culminating in twisting the psyche of a child to the extent where they have no moral principles or sense of right and wrong.

A society that produces such children is a sick and broken society and needs to be repaired. Whilst it would be easy to demonise the child and call for him to be hanged or incarcerated for 50 years we need to see past the veil of emotion that the circumstances of his crime has put over our eyes and see what we can do so that such a thing never re-occurs.

Any child that commits rape has been failed by society, society has not fulfilled it's obligations for the welfare and protection of children and the crime mentioned in this thread is a symptom of this that must be rectified.

I suffered years of neglect, poverty, sexual abuse and many other things no child should experience and the only crimes I've ever committed are piracy and road traffic offences.
Yet for some reason, I'm not a ****ed up maniac who doesn't know right from wrong. I find your self-righteous blame-shifting both patronising and insulting.

 

[repiV]

Does the brain stop developing at 13? There is a difference between a 13 year olds judgement and a 30 year olds. Where is the line drawn? If it is drawn at the age where a sense of wrong and right is present then you should see no problem with 8 year old children serving life for murder.

Actually, the highest stage of brain development occurs at age 12.

 

[Warbie]

Just lock the kid up and let him out if/when he's deemed fit to reenter society. At 13 it's not too late to change.

 

[theotherguy]

Just lock the kid up and let him out if/when he's deemed fit to reenter society. At 13 it's not too late to change.

Agreed.

The purpose of law should not be to punish but to rehabilitate, and if rehabilitation is not possible, to protect society from criminals.

I don't pretend to protect rapists and murderers, but the law, as it applies to everyone, should be applied fairly. All crimes should be treated with simple jailtime. More dangerous criminals warrant more time and higher security because they pose a danger to society, while less dangerous criminals warrant less time and lower security.

A 13 year old who commits rape should indeed be in prison for a sufficiently long time, but shouldn't be given 60 years. I think 20-30 is a much better sentence.

 

[theotherguy]

Actually, the highest stage of brain development occurs at age 12.

That's a lie. Brains are constantly developing. I think what you mean to say is that at age 12 connections start being cut rather than grown, which is actually a very important part of brain development, which leads to impulse control and faster decision-making. At 17 a teenage brain is not even fully developed. Connections still need to be pruned and impulses controlled.

 

[repiV]

That's a lie. Brains are constantly developing. I think what you mean to say is that at age 12 connections start being cut rather than grown, which is actually a very important part of brain development, which leads to impulse control and faster decision-making. At 17 a teenage brain is not even fully developed. Connections still need to be pruned and impulses controlled.

No, it's not a lie. I learned it in my Psychology A-level, thank you very much. Unless of course the education system is just a massive government conspiracy to feed people lies. Yeah, that seems more likely.

Piaget's stages of intellectual development

That page claims the uppermost stage of development at 11-15 years, but our textbooks said 12.

 

[Solaris]

No idea where I would look such things up. It's no secret that modern prisons are almost like a holiday camp.

Cummon, that's bullshit. Prisons are nothing like a holiday camp. Prisons are shit places to be.

I suffered years of neglect, poverty, sexual abuse and many other things no child should experience and the only crimes I've ever committed are piracy and road traffic offences.
Yet for some reason, I'm not a ****ed up maniac who doesn't know right from wrong. I find your self-righteous blame-shifting both patronising and insulting.

Who knows why some children survive such things and others turn to maniacs?

There is obviously a reason for why these children do this, it's genetic or environmental. And it seems the vast majority of kids who do crazy ****ed up shit like rape other kids or shoot up a school have suffered some serious grievances and come from working class backgrounds with shit parents.

 

[Eejit]

I'll rephrase that.
Everyone of sufficient mental condition would know it's wrong. You can hide behind this as much as you want but the fact is there is no evidence to support abuse, so please stop relying on it.

The fact that he did what he did is somewhat indicative but yeah no way of proving it either way.

 

[repiV]

Cummon, that's bullshit. Prisons are nothing like a holiday camp. Prisons are shit places to be.

They're obviously not nearly shit enough, given that most ex-cons reoffend and we spend much more on feeding prisoners than feeding patients and schoolchildren.
Sky or not, you DO get a free TV in your room in prison. I had to pay a fortune for that privilege in hospital.

Who knows why some children survive such things and others turn to maniacs?

There is obviously a reason for why these children do this, it's genetic or environmental. And it seems the vast majority of kids who do crazy ****ed up shit like rape other kids or shoot up a school have suffered some serious grievances and come from working class backgrounds with shit parents.

Yeah, sure, there's a reason everything in the world happens. That doesn't mean people can be absolved of blame for their actions because they had a hard life. Life is tough, that's not an excuse for any one of us.

Personally speaking, I'm glad of all the bad shit that's happened to me. Without it, I wouldn't be the person I am today. Character is built through adversity, not luxury. Adversity in youth often leads to luxury in adulthood, yet how many kids who come from a privileged background are going to gain the kind of qualities necessary to accomplish something great in life? Very few, I would say.
Sometimes cruelty can be kind.

Now clearly the justice system we have is woefully inadequate, but the bullshit pussyfooting liberal approach is NOT the answer. The reason our society is so dysfunctional is precisely because of estrogen-driven social policies and rights for criminals. Kids can do whatever they want because there are no repercussions for them - they have all the power, and they know it. Their sense of unwarranted self-entitlement and no responsibilities carries straight on into adulthood, and we end up with the crime- and chav-infested country we now live in.
You're barking up completely the wrong tree. People must be held accountable for their actions.

 

[ailevation]

I find it contradictory where he was defending that kid who raped a 6 year-old when he was 15 by saying he has had a horrible past. He proceeds to say that the justice system needs to have a blind ruling, where no emotional cloud is involved. So, that should mean there should not be any reflection on how the kid was a victim of a past event.

 

[Eejit]

It isn't contradictory...
It's possible to take account of abuse etc. affecting mental stability without being emotional.