King of Deathmatch: Quake 3 or UT?

[99.vikram]

What the thread title says. I know this has been done a hundred times before, but hopefully there won't be any fanboyism this time round since both these games are in the distant past.

I recently reinstalled both Q3A and UT and have been playing a LOT of deathmatch, on LAN and online. Here's what I think:

Movement feels much better in Q3A. It's also the prettier game. Higher poly counts, great use of shaders, sharp textures and lots of player models. Plus, every weapon feels different and useful - no redundant weapons at all. And the maps are works of art, with curves and decorations here and there, and most of them having theme - gothic, sci-fi etc. If id had released Quake 3 with more than 20 maps which didn't share the same look, then it's no contest. Q3A looks better, plays faster and feels more polished than UT.

HOWEVER that didn't happen. UT blows Quake 3 out of the water with it's varied set of slower paced maps and it's quirky, interesting weapons. Because of the weapons and mutators alone UT has more depth than Q3A. Thanks to UnrealEd, a noob like me can try his hand at mapping. And who doesn't like to hear "Rampage" while playing?

Winnar = UT.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

UT gets my vote. Quake 3 was great, but UT just had more variety in all aspects.

 

[repiV]

Varied sets of slower paced maps, "quirky" weapons and bloat like mutators do not a good game make.
"Quirky" weapons = unbalanced, unusual but shite weapons.

UT is only the winner if you value style and gimmicks over quality.

 

[repiV]

UT gets my vote. Quake 3 was great, but UT just had more variety in all aspects.

Not really, since Quake 3 had a mod community that's never since been equalled. Two years on from release, noone played ordinary Q3 anymore.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Not really, since Quake 3 had a mod community that's never since been equalled. Two years on from release, noone played ordinary Q3 anymore.

Never since been equalled? How about utterly surpassed by Half-Life?

 

[repiV]

Never since been equalled? How about utterly surpassed by Half-Life?

Hardly. Half-Life based multiplayer games were always terrible, the only reason they were so popular was because everyone had Half-Life and everyone's PC could run it. TFC is an abomination.
It's also based around a select few total conversions, whereas Q3 had both total conversions and mods that made the base game more competitive and playable. Half-Life's mods made the game something else entirely, Q3's mods merely enhanced the game.

 

[Loke]

UT hands down, been addicted to it ever since it launched in '99. Of course I've also played Quake III when it came out but never really got into it, prefer the more slow-paced gameplay of UT with all the different and very memorable maps.

 

[Stigmata]

Hardly. Half-Life based multiplayer games were always terrible, the only reason they were so popular was because everyone had Half-Life and everyone's PC could run it. TFC is an abomination.
It's also based around a select few total conversions, whereas Q3 had both total conversions and mods that made the base game more competitive and playable. Half-Life's mods made the game something else entirely, Q3's mods merely enhanced the game.

Well if we're going to include the "gameplay-enhancing" mods that take up 300KB of disk space, why not include every little weapon and enemy mod for Half-Life as well?

Or I could take your course of action and just call a bunch of Q3 mods "abominations", because we all know that's not a subjective and spurious argument.

 

[99.vikram]

I guess I was wrong about the fanboyism part .

Varied sets of slower paced maps, "quirky" weapons and bloat like mutators do not a good game make.
"Quirky" weapons = unbalanced, unusual but shite weapons.

Oh come on, UT's gameplay was great in addition to having alt. fire modes for all weapons and announcer rewards etc. And which weapon exactly was unbalanced? An underpowered melee weapon, an accurate sidearm, slow moving rockets...it all seems balanced to me. Even the redeemer was too slow to be overpowered. The only weapon I would nerf a little is the pulse gun.

And isn't the BFG in Quake 3 the very definition of unbalanced?

I like Quake 3's minimalist approach too, but you don't have to like one and hate the other.

 

[Loke]

The only weapon that I would call unbalanced is the sniper rifle. 8x zoom, hitscan, fast firing rate, usually one-shot-kill in the head.

 

[repiV]

I guess I was wrong about the fanboyism part .

Oh come on, UT's gameplay was great in addition to having alt. fire modes for all weapons and announcer rewards etc. And which weapon exactly was unbalanced? An underpowered melee weapon, an accurate sidearm, slow moving rockets...it all seems balanced to me. Even the redeemer was too slow to be overpowered. The only weapon I would nerf a little is the pulse gun.

And isn't the BFG in Quake 3 the very definition of unbalanced?

I like Quake 3's minimalist approach too, but you don't have to like one and hate the other.

I never denied that UT is great. But you're judging the game on the wrong criteria - surely your main point of reference should be the balance and raw quality of the gameplay.
UT's weapons were really, really unbalanced - the minigun is obscenely overpowered, the Enforcers are way too powerful for a starting weapon, the shock combos are overpowered...then there's the skilless stuff like Ripper and rocket spamming. They rightly corrected both those issues in the next generation of UT games.
You can't spam your way to easy kills in Q3, but you can in UT. The BFG is just a joke weapon in Q3, it was removed from all competition maps so it's a non-issue really. It could have worked well if it spawned every 2 minutes like a powerup - god knows why they didn't think of that.
UT might be the better experience, but Q3 is the better deathmatch game. I might be inclined to agree that UT is a better game out of the box too, as retail Q3 is severely lacking in content - but I'm not sure that's particularly relevant. One of the great things about Q3 is it provided a very basic, perfect framework for the community to shape as it desired. It worked out well.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Hardly. Half-Life based multiplayer games were always terrible, the only reason they were so popular was because everyone had Half-Life and everyone's PC could run it. TFC is an abomination.
It's also based around a select few total conversions, whereas Q3 had both total conversions and mods that made the base game more competitive and playable. Half-Life's mods made the game something else entirely, Q3's mods merely enhanced the game.

Well, shit. Now you put it that way, obviously you're right. The HL mods were so abominable that they had far more players than Q3 and do to this very day.

 

[repiV]

Well, shit. Now you put it that way, obviously you're right. The HL mods were so abominable that they had far more players than Q3 and do to this very day.

Number of players doesn't equal quality, in any way, shape or form. If that were true, Halo would be the best FPS on the market.
There are many reasons why HL is so popular as a multiplayer game, and not one of them has to do with quality.

 

[Stigmata]

And lack of players does? I'd really like to see where you're going with this.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Wow.

You base your position on a very narrow and utterly subjective viewpoint - i.e. whether or not you thought they were good or not, and then you apply it generally, as if it were established fact. That's enormously impressive.

 

[repiV]

And lack of players does? I'd really like to see where you're going with this.

Where did I say that?

 

[repiV]

Wow.

You base your position on a very narrow and utterly subjective viewpoint - i.e. whether or not you thought they were good or not, and then you apply it generally, as if it were established fact. That's enormously impressive.

How on earth did you make that leap?

If ten million people played Daikatana, would that make it good?

 

[Stigmata]

That's not what I meant at all. Excuse me while I remove myself from this and watch Pi chew you out for being a retard.

 

[repiV]

That's not what I meant at all. Excuse me while I remove myself from this and watch Pi chew you out for being a retard.

Self-righteous cock.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I'm referring to your "all HL mods were crap" blanket statement.

 

[repiV]

I'm referring to your "all HL mods were crap" blanket statement.

No amount of modding will ever make HLDM or HLCTF a good game. It always was and always will be terrible.
As for HL total conversions, they change the nature of the game so completely that they aren't really HL anymore so for comparison purposes, they offer little. The engine is really badly put together though, it's like they took some bastard combination of Quake and Quake II and made something worse than both - and it makes the games feel just plain wrong.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Subjectively.
In your opinion.
As you see it.

Other people (I'd go so far as to say probably the majority of people) would disagree. That doesn't make them wrong.

 

[99.vikram]

then there's the skilless stuff like Ripper and rocket spamming.

Rocket spamming will always be a problem in DM games, even Q3. UT just magnifies the problem sixfold, I guess.

Q3 is definitely the tournament standard, but let's face it, a gun that spews wads of toxic goo is more fun than a regular ol' RL/shotty.

The engine is really badly put together though, it's like they took some bastard combination of Quake and Quake II and made something worse than both - and it makes the games feel just plain wrong.

Seriously, WTF? Did Valve rape you as a child? :|

Skeletal animation, beam technology, dynamic shadows (Uplink demo) - GoldSrc was not only better than Q/Q2 engines, it was better by a mile. It didn't get popular because of an unintuitive toolset.

 

[Narcolepsy]

UT is only the winner if you value style and gimmicks over quality.

Um, isn't style one measure of quality?

Case in point: Team Fortress 2. The style actively enhances the gameplay.

 

[repiV]

Subjectively.
In your opinion.
As you see it.

Other people (I'd go so far as to say probably the majority of people) would disagree. That doesn't make them wrong.

If noone can be either wrong or right, then this discussion is entirely redundant. What's the point in even participating in the thread if you're going to argue from a position of total neutrality?
If it was just in my opinion, it would be HL DM being used in serious competitions, not Q3 DM. The top players in the world would be playing Halflife, not Q3 and UT. They aren't, and never did.

 

[repiV]

Rocket spamming will always be a problem in DM games, even Q3. UT just magnifies the problem sixfold, I guess.

Q3 is definitely the tournament standard, but let's face it, a gun that spews wads of toxic goo is more fun than a regular ol' RL/shotty.

Well tournament standard is what I judge the game on primarily.

I can certainly see why most people would prefer UT, but I could not say that it's a better game.

 

[repiV]

Um, isn't style one measure of quality?

Case in point: Team Fortress 2. The style actively enhances the gameplay.

It means nothing in competition.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Not really, since Quake 3 had a mod community that's never since been equalled.

Well, I guess I should add out of the box, UT was far more varied. Also, don't sell UT's mod community short. There were some OUTSTANDING variations on the gameplay that were released for several years.

Two years on from release, noone played ordinary Q3 anymore.

Thus my point.

 

[repiV]

Well, I guess I should add out of the box, UT was far more varied. Also, don't sell UT's mod community short. There were some OUTSTANDING variations on the gameplay that were released for several years.

Yeah, but UT mods have never really had a habit of taking off. People just prefer to play the base game, beyond the basic competition mutators and suchlike.
Whereas Quake III has OSP, CPMA, Rocket Arena 3, Threewave, to name but a few - all immensely popular. Dozens of UK servers constantly full - EACH, back in its heydey.
It was a completely different dynamic...UT thrived in spite of the mods, and Q3 thrived because of the mods.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

but hopefully there won't be any fanboyism this time round since both these games are in the distant past.

OMG...fail.

 

[Warbie]

Q3 for pure, skilled deathmatch goodness. UT for more accessible and casual dm. Q3 ftw.

 

[Musk]

for most fast paced Q3 takes my vote but for greater weapon variety and modes, ut takes it. hard to say which one i'd prefer but i'm leaning towards Q3 as i like the pace of the game and the weps are also awesome

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

If noone can be either wrong or right, then this discussion is entirely redundant. What's the point in even participating in the thread if you're going to argue from a position of total neutrality?
If it was just in my opinion, it would be HL DM being used in serious competitions, not Q3 DM. The top players in the world would be playing Halflife, not Q3 and UT. They aren't, and never did.

I'm not arguing from a position of neutrality. I think HL's mods far surpass those of Q3. However, I acknowledge that this is just my opinion. I won't just dismiss all Q3 mods as being crap and use that as the basis for my argument.

Also, don't the major tournaments play CS?

 

[repiV]

I'm not arguing from a position of neutrality. I think HL's mods far surpass those of Q3. However, I acknowledge that this is just my opinion. I won't just dismiss all Q3 mods as being crap and use that as the basis for my argument.

I think the fact that I played at a near-professional level for some years gives my opinion on the quality of games for competition purposes a degree of weight. Plus the fact that I've actually given reasons why Q3 is a superior game.

Also, don't the major tournaments play CS?

Yes, but again, CS is a total conversion. They don't play HLDM. Even then, it took many years for CS to become accepted as part of the CPL etc. It's very spectator friendly.
Q3 is still used as the main 1v1 game to this day.

 

[99.vikram]

I think the fact that I played at a near-professional level for some years gives my opinion on the quality of games for competition purposes a degree of weight.

I would argue that games are meant to be entertainment, not sport.
So tournaments and competition are a corruption of what games were originally meant to be.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

But, like I said, you have an enormously narrow focus. You judge a game/mod's quality entirely on it's "tournamentness", a rating that generally means bugger all to practically everyone else. You dismissed HL and all it's mods as being abominations based on this premise, even though one of said mods is a major part of these tournaments, narrowing your focus even further to just DM.
So why you didn't just say that you think that HL and it's mods were abominations because they weren't DM, I don't know.

 

[repiV]

I would argue that games are meant to be entertainment, not sport. So tournaments and competition are a corruption of what games were originally meant to be.

Then our definitions of a good game will be inherently different - mutually exclusive, but neither wrong.
And that's fine.

But if you're talking about the competitive merit of a game, you don't look at the number of players it has, you look at what the best players are playing and which game has the highest level of skill amongst its playerbase.
Most of the top players play Warsow, which you've probably never heard of. It's a free FPS based on the Quake 2 engine, and it's really rather neat. But it will never be mainstream.
Two different demographics entirely.

 

[repiV]

But, like I said, you have an enormously narrow focus. You judge a game/mod's quality entirely on it's "tournamentness", a rating that generally means bugger all to practically everyone else. You dismissed HL and all it's mods as being abominations based on this premise, even though one of said mods is a major part of these tournaments, narrowing your focus even further to just DM.
So why you didn't just say that you think that HL and it's mods were abominations because they weren't DM, I don't know.

No, I think TFC is an abomination because it's slow, dull and the engine is terrible. Q3F was excellent. So was Tribes.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

So you're asking people that generally don't play competitively about the relative merits of games that you only judge on their competitive merit? Interesting choice there.

 

[Raptor_Jesus]

UT imho