KOTOR II restoration project open beta released

[taviow]

Here it is: http://www.deadlystream.com/showthread.php?t=339

This is not team gizka, it's another team. I didn't try it yet, I'll have to install the game again and it's 2am. Gotta sleep!

Basic info about it: http://www.deadlystream.com/showthread.php?t=204

I believe it restores as much content as gizka were planning to restore.
More info about what was restored here: http://www.deadlystream.com/showthread.php?t=228

It is recomended to have a fresh install of TSL and official patch 1.0b the movie and sound patches are optional. Also it would be best to start a fresh game with no old saves and please follow the readme or the install will fail.

 

[Lucid]

Shit.
Now I have a reason to replay the game.

 

[Yorick]

Thaaaat's interesting. I didn't realise there was more than one of these projects in the works.

 

[taviow]

Thaaaat's interesting. I didn't realise there was more than one of these projects in the works.

I believe that Team Gizka was the only restoration mod for years. This other team was created by people who were frustrated because Gizka was taking too long.

 

[Operational]

Will definately be grabbing this on my next Kotor2 run.

 

[Acepilotf14]

By the way tav, I said Gizka would never finish.

That left other projects open to being able to finish.

It's just Gizka will never finish. Ever.

 

[taviow]

Also, report the bugs!

 

[MorganFreeman911]

Shit.
Now I have a reason to replay the game.

Same here, I have to FIND my CD.

 

[Paulaner]

I heard the game has some serious issues with Vista. Is it right?

 

[Gunner]

I heard the game has some serious issues with Vista. Is it right?

I finished it twice on vista x64 and the only gamebreaking bugs I ever experienced were due to the game itself, so short answer: no.

 

[Insano]

I've had quite a lot of crashes on Vista, so I just installed it on XP.

 

[Lucid]

Reinstalling the game today.
Any other mods you guys recommend? Preferably ones that maybe sharpen textures on the clothing/armor?

Would they even be compatible with this?

edit: Found a couple of patches that appear to be official.
They make the cinematics and music in the game much clearer.

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

TSL needs a lot more than these superficial restorations to make it a worthwhile game.

 

[taviow]

Superficial restoration? It restores as much content as Gizka's restoration was supposed to restore. Did you even read the links I posted?

 

[alchemistlord]

Finally! At least an open beta.

 

[smwScott]

Been holding off on this. How stable/high quality is it? I'm not really interested in beta testing for them to be honest, and I don't want to get halfway through and get stuck by a game-stopping bug.

So for anyone who has tried it, how is the user experience? Is it a good idea to get it now or wait for a newer version? For anyone who is familiar with both projects, what are the differences between the two? Would there be any point in waiting for Gizka's release?

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

Superficial restoration? It restores as much content as Gizka's restoration was supposed to restore. Did you even read the links I posted?

Of course.

95% of the restored content is along the lines of "[character] was meant to make a comment about [event] here", or something else without ultimate consequence. Having Kreia or Atton say an extra line or two isn't going to change the game experience for me, nor is having an extra superficial option or two during a side-quest. TSL suffered from fundamental flaws in its main plot, which is ultimately untouched by these restorations.

 

[Operational]

I don't know about this mod but I know the Gizka one was going to restore large amounts of endgame storyline stuff. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as trivial restorations.

 

[Tagaziel]

I prefer Team Gizka's work. Sure, it has its drawbacks, but overall, the experience is as smooth as silk.

 

[taviow]

Of course.

95% of the restored content is along the lines of "[character] was meant to make a comment about [event] here", or something else without ultimate consequence. Having Kreia or Atton say an extra line or two isn't going to change the game experience for me, nor is having an extra superficial option or two during a side-quest. TSL suffered from fundamental flaws in its main plot, which is ultimately untouched by these restorations.

Then you won't enjoy Gizka's mod either since, as I said, both of them restore the same things. There's far more content restored than lines of characters. Read the list again.

From what I heard this mod does restore the ending, but I didn't play it yet.

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

Then you won't enjoy Gizka's mod either since, as I said, both of them restore the same things. There's far more content restored than lines of characters. Read the list again.

And I'd give exactly the same opinion on Gizka's mod. Why wouldn't I? Read my posts again.

My problem is with the main plot, as I've already said. It is driven by uninteresting characters with little or no depth (or at least no explored depth), and you can see exactly where the plot is going by the time you're halfway through the game, yet are unable to do anything about it.

Spoiler

Take Kreia. I knew she was an evil bitch who was going to screw me over way before she actually did. The game pretty much told me she was evil and that I couldn't trust her. So why was I forced to carry her around the whole frickin' game knowing that she was going to screw me?

The plot was absolute garbage, and I challenge you to name anything in this mod that improves it. If your cake mix has turned out wrong, throwing more flour and eggs into it ain't gonna give you a better cake. Just more gloopy mess (an appropriate analogy for TSL's plot, I believe).

 

[Tagaziel]

My problem is with the main plot, as I've already said. It is driven by uninteresting characters with little or no depth (or at least no explored depth), and you can see exactly where the plot is going by the time you're halfway through the game, yet are unable to do anything about it.

That is because you didn't care to explore it. You skimmed the surface of the plot and since the themes are hardly compatible with the cliched, Bioware dichotomy of good and evil, you automatically label it as bad.

Furthermore, you are completely missing the point of role playing. You are metagaming, not trying to actually act like your character, but taking your out-of-universe knowledge and applying it to the game.

Spoiler

Take Kreia. I knew she was an evil bitch who was going to screw me over way before she actually did. The game pretty much told me she was evil and that I couldn't trust her. So why was I forced to carry her around the whole frickin' game knowing that she was going to screw me?

Labeling Kreia as evil just shows how much you failed to understand about the plot OR her character. If you don't bother to understand her motivations and character, don't post anything about her.

The plot was absolute garbage, and I challenge you to name anything in this mod that improves it. If your cake mix has turned out wrong, throwing more flour and eggs into it ain't gonna give you a better cake. Just more gloopy mess (an appropriate analogy for TSL's plot, I believe).

The plot is amazing. It's basically Planescape: Torment IN SPACE.

Point is, you can't appreciate the plot, because you obviously did not bother to actually explore and understand it.

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

That is because you didn't care to explore it. You skimmed the surface of the plot and since the themes are hardly compatible with the cliched, Bioware dichotomy of good and evil, you automatically label it as bad.

Furthermore, you are completely missing the point of role playing. You are metagaming, not trying to actually act like your character, but taking your out-of-universe knowledge and applying it to the game.



Labeling Kreia as evil just shows how much you failed to understand about the plot OR her character. If you don't bother to understand her motivations and character, don't post anything about her.



The plot is amazing. It's basically Planescape: Torment IN SPACE.

Point is, you can't appreciate the plot, because you obviously did not bother to actually explore and understand it.

Yes, I suppose this is the typical response to criticism of TSL. "You must not have understood/explored/played it right". I'm sorry to disappoint, but I did all of those things; there would be no point in playing a game such as KOTOR if you were not prepared to do so, no?

Spoiler

Kreia is evil. She wants to destroy the Force itself. She's a Sith Lord, for god's sake. That's evil, in my book. Not evil in the traditional sense; more evil like how Doctor Breen in HL2 is evil. But still the same stuff.

Character exploration wasn't undertaken in any serious way. Mira, Atton, Visas, Bao-Dur ... they're all boring characters. And what sucks is that they should be interesting, but their character development and relationships with the PC never really go anywhere worthwhile. Things are revealed too soon, or contrastingly sometimes not at all when you feel they should have been. And that's not because I haven't understood anything; it's because I didn't like it. Accept that.

And I stand by what I said in the last post's spoiler tags about Kreia. It was a fundamental flaw in gameplay, being forced into doing something I knew was going to hurt me by virtue of not being given any option not to do it. There are other such instances throughout the game, but this one was such a cardinal sin of game development that I feel it deserves the most lambasting.

 

[Paulaner]

I agree with TheOneFreeMan. TSL seems unfinished and the main plot left me kind of bored. In my opinion, BioWare's KotOR was rock solid, while Obsidian's was uninspired and bland, maybe because it was rushed. I have yet to try the restoration projects. Just my two cents.

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes, I suppose this is the typical response to criticism of TSL. "You must not have understood/explored/played it right". I'm sorry to disappoint, but I did all of those things; there would be no point in playing a game such as KOTOR if you were not prepared to do so, no?

Your posts clearly show that you just skimmed over the game.

Spoiler

Kreia is evil. She wants to destroy the Force itself. She's a Sith Lord, for god's sake. That's evil, in my book. Not evil in the traditional sense; more evil like how Doctor Breen in HL2 is evil. But still the same stuff.

You completely ignored her character development then. She isn't evil, it might seem so, but her ultimate goal is motivated not by "hurrhurrIamevildurrr" Biowareish villany, but rather her desire to be absolutely free, with no Godlike entity guiding her life and choices.

This is taught to the Jedi Exile throughout the entire game. If you missed out on that...

Character exploration wasn't undertaken in any serious way.

...

If by that you mean no giant revelation halfway through the game that Handmaiden is your sister, Visas your aunt and Atton your long lost twin brother, then yeah, it has none.

Character development is done through interacting with them, you know, talking and gaining influence.

Mira,

Did you actually listen to her and made her a Jedi?

Atton,

Did you actually listen to him and made him a Jedi?

Visas,

Did you actually listen to her?

Bao-Dur

That's the only character I can (semi) agree on, since Obsidian seems to have forgot about him. Kind of weird, seeing how it was his invention

Spoiler

that created Darth Traya, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus

.

... they're all boring characters.

I sure did find them interesting, since I really like seeing characters develop through interacting with them, rather than predetermined "he looks worried, talk to him" KOTOR1 style NPCs.

I say, KOTOR1's characters are boring, each of them stays within their pre-defined archetype, not undergoing any significant change in their character, at least nothing comparable to what Atton goes through, if you explore his backstory, Mira or (especially) Brianna.

And what sucks is that they should be interesting, but their character development and relationships with the PC never really go anywhere worthwhile. Things are revealed too soon, or contrastingly sometimes not at all when you feel they should have been. And that's not because I haven't understood anything; it's because I didn't like it. Accept that.

I'm not going to, because you completely trash the game's writing, just because you prefer EPIC MASS EFFECT NPCs.

And I stand by what I said in the last post's spoiler tags about Kreia. It was a fundamental flaw in gameplay, being forced into doing something I knew was going to hurt me by virtue of not being given any option not to do it.

Maybe you did, but the Jedi Exile sure didn't. He has no reason not to trust Kreia, since it was she who elped him get off Peragus, helped him regain his connection to the Force, mentored him and expanded his knowledge and provided valuable input on pretty much everything.

As I said, you're making the error of metagaming, not roleplaying.

There are other such instances throughout the game, but this one was such a cardinal sin of game development that I feel it deserves the most lambasting.

You mean, actually tying the plot development to the lead character's perception, not the gamer's?

I agree with TheOneFreeMan. TSL seems unfinished and the main plot left me kind of bored. In my opinion, BioWare's KotOR was rock solid, while Obsidian's was uninspired and bland, maybe because it was rushed. I have yet to try the restoration projects. Just my two cents.

So you prefer Sunday cartoon two dimensional villains to characters that are actually ambiguous?

 

[Operational]

/agrees with Mikael.

BTW Bao-Dur was one of the things screwed over when LucasArts rushed the game, IIRC his stuff isn't restorable.

 

[Neo_Kuja]

/agrees with Mikael

If you managed to accidentally botch most of the interaction bonus scenes, then you'll miss out ~80% of the conversations you can have with the other characters.

Look through the Let's Play! if you want to see most of the character scenes and development - he does most of them in this runthrough

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

Your posts clearly show that you just skimmed over the game.

You completely ignored her character development then. She isn't evil, it might seem so, but her ultimate goal is motivated not by "hurrhurrIamevildurrr" Biowareish villany, but rather her desire to be absolutely free, with no Godlike entity guiding her life and choices.

This is taught to the Jedi Exile throughout the entire game. If you missed out on that...

I'm somewhat baffled by your desire to believe that I've either skimmed the game, not explored fully, or misunderstood things merely because I dare to say that the game's plot is not awesome. You're sounding dangerously like a fanboy.

Spoiler

Kreia is evil. Read the Doctor Breen reference in the last post. Just because someone has a twisted logic and believes themselves to have noble goals does not mean they aren't evil. She wants to destroy the Force. She was Darth Traya, for god's sake. Annihilation of the Jedi? Hello?

Incidentally, what are you basing your view of "Biowareish villany" on? Are you saying that Bioware never produce complex and ambiguous villains?

If by that you mean no giant revelation halfway through the game that Handmaiden is your sister, Visas your aunt and Atton your long lost twin brother, then yeah, it has none.

Character development is done through interacting with them, you know, talking and gaining influence.

And nothing else.

Remember how you met Mission and Zaalbar in the original KOTOR? First, you heard rumour of them. You went to find them. Then after exploring you ran into Mission, and embarked on a quest to rescue Zaalbar. This is an example of good character dynamics. You don't just find these characters and they suddenly join your party, or you inadvertantly get them at the end of some random quest that the NPC was involved in; the characters have a reason to be there, and you played an active role in getting them. It builds chemistry between yourself and your party members.

Now let's take TSL. Why is Handmaiden actually there? Or Visas? Or Mira, for that matter? You never feel as if this group has any solid reasons to be on the journey. Bao-Dur has a reason, but he's hardly the strongest character in there anyway. And what's worse is that the developers know this. That's why they force that tripe about you being a natural leader, and people being influenced by you down your throat. It's one of the weakest explanations for not bothering with character development I've ever seen, and makes me cringe.

Your party should have motivations for being with you. I cannot feel them. Neither could the developers, sadly.

Did you actually listen to her and made her a Jedi?

Did you actually listen to him and made him a Jedi?

Did you actually listen to her?

Yes, yes, and yes. Made Brianna a Jedi too. So what?

Making everyone around me into a Jedi is good character development?

I sure did find them interesting, since I really like seeing characters develop through interacting with them, rather than predetermined "he looks worried, talk to him" KOTOR1 style NPCs.

I say, KOTOR1's characters are boring, each of them stays within their pre-defined archetype, not undergoing any significant change in their character, at least nothing comparable to what Atton goes through, if you explore his backstory, Mira or (especially) Brianna.

What? No significant change?

Bastila?

Apart from that, you're right to an extent. The character arcs could have been more influential on a character's behaviour. But it was still successful for me because I found out about the character's backstory in interesting ways. Zalbaar's mission on Kashykk, for example. Or meeting Bastila's mother. I was playing the game and finding out about the characters at the same time. TSL just doesn't do this; it relies way too heavily on mere conversation. That's not to say that conversation is bad by any means, I enjoy it ... but the old adage that actions speak louder than words could not be more true when you're talking about writing a character.

Plus, the biggest turn-off about the character development in TSL was that I got stuck in recurring conversation loops when talking to my party. You can't deny that those loops weren't a result of bad writing.

I'm not going to, because you completely trash the game's writing, just because you prefer EPIC MASS EFFECT NPCs.

There's no such thing as an "epic NPC". I think you may have misunderstood quite a few literary conventions there.

There's an epic tradition of narrative, but the NPCs within that don't necessarily have to follow many strict conventions. But you've been showing quite a bit of contempt for epic storylines merely because they're epic storylines, lately. We've been telling the great epic for hundreds of years, thousands even. Because it's a genre that taps into some very stimulating emotions, especially when you're talking about interactive games. The characters, plots, and historic and societal context change each time though; just because something is an epic, doesn't mean it's the same old rehash. Not all Bioware's games and characters are exactly the same, as you seem to believe.

So anyway, if you're sick of epic storylines ... then don't play them.

Maybe you did, but the Jedi Exile sure didn't. He has no reason not to trust Kreia, since it was she who elped him get off Peragus, helped him regain his connection to the Force, mentored him and expanded his knowledge and provided valuable input on pretty much everything.

As I said, you're making the error of metagaming, not roleplaying.

I don't think you've understood what you've just said.

Roleplaying is taking the role of a character. I named that character. I adjusted his looks and skills to my liking. This character is effectively me within this game world. That is the essense of roleplaying. As soon as you start revealing crucial bits of information to the player, but then assuming that you the player saw them, but the character you're playing did not and so therefore can take no action ... you've created a huge disparity between the experience of the player and the role he's taken on within the game which shatters the immersive experience. I can't roleplay a character if the game will not let me assume that role; it's completely counterproductive to the experience.

Consider this example. I'm playing the role of a character who's leading an army storming a castle. I'm then shown a cutscene of the princess inside the castle being tortured. This is a good break of character, as it doesn't show me any information that I don't already know about the gameplay experience I'm roleplaying in. I knew there was a princess, that she was in trouble ... this cut-scene has provided me with incentive to rescue the princess.

Now let's replay that, except the cut-scene is different. This time I'm shown a cut-scene of the princess being tortured, and then the villain sets up a trap which will pour hot oil down on my troops from the ramparts as soon as we enter the gates. I return to control of my character in knowledge that this trap exists ... but I have no control over it. I just have to walk into the gates, and the hot oil falls on me, emaciating my troops. This is a bad break of character, because it's given the player information that should affect how I go into the next part of game, yet I have no control. I'm just walking into something where I now know what's going to happen, thinking "why am I being forced to do this? I know what's going to happen, and it's bad". It's the most frustrating thing a roleplaying game can do to a player; treating you and your character as two separate entities. And that's exactly how it felt when I was playing TSL. A total turn-off.

You mean, actually tying the plot development to the lead character's perception, not the gamer's?

Yes. It is bad writing. I'm not sure how you could believe it's good.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'm somewhat baffled by your desire to believe that I've either skimmed the game, not explored fully, or misunderstood things merely because I dare to say that the game's plot is not awesome. You're sounding dangerously like a fanboy.

I do sound, because I actually understood the game fully.

Spoiler

Kreia is evil. Read the Doctor Breen reference in the last post. Just because someone has a twisted logic and believes themselves to have noble goals does not mean they aren't evil. She wants to destroy the Force. She was Darth Traya, for god's sake. Annihilation of the Jedi? Hello?

Uh, wut?

Spoiler

Kreia didn't annihilate the Jedi, she merely exposed the masters to the same kind of experience the Exile went through at Malachor. She doesn't want to destabilize the Republic, kill all remaining Jedi (something she is quite capable of doing, by the way) or kill puppies.

She wants to destroy the Force and remove what she perceives as its manipulative hand - did you watch the movies and how "May the Force be with you" wish appears continuously?

The key problem is that you stick to the infantile good/evil division. There is no objective good or evil in the game, only shades of gray.

Kreia exposed Attris' corruption, leading to her downfall and the Exile facing off against her, preventing a perversion of the Jedi Order due to her flawed teachings.

She masterminded the destruction of Sion and Nihlus, preventing them from completely destroying the Jedi.

She is hardly an evil person. Twisted and manipulative, yes, but hardly evil.[/quote]

Incidentally, what are you basing your view of "Biowareish villany" on? Are you saying that Bioware never produce complex and ambiguous villains?

Most of their villains are archetypal cardobard cut outs, yes. Sure, there might be a Jon Irenicus here or an Aribeth there, but for the most part, they are unambiguously evil, like Sarevok, Saren or Malak.

And no, the ability to convince Saren to shoot himself with one Intimidation/Persuasion line is not "ambiguous and complex".

And nothing else.

Wrong.

Do you forget the cutscenes when entering the Ebon Hawk? Mira's introduction on Nar Shaddaa and her gameplay segment? Atton's reaction (different, depending on your influence) on Nar Shaddaa when you leave? Mira on Dxun? Visas and Canderous on the Ravager?

GO-TO is elaborated upon for the entirety of Nar Shaddaa, and the Exile can actually confront him about all of the facts he found out. With Canderous, you can pick up Mandalorians all across the game space.

A lot of exposition was, sadly, cut when LucasFarts forced a release. There would be a lot of it on Malachor V, where each character would have a gameplay segment dedicated to them.

Remember how you met Mission and Zaalbar in the original KOTOR? First, you heard rumour of them. You went to find them. Then after exploring you ran into Mission, and embarked on a quest to rescue Zaalbar. This is an example of good character dynamics.

Which doesn't change the fact that afterwards they don't evolve and stay within their pre-defined archetype.

Counter: Kreia. Basically, her character evolves continuously through the game, through conversations, cutscenes, interactions with other characters and feedback basing on your choices.

You don't just find these characters and they suddenly join your party,

Which doesn't happen in TSL either.

or you inadvertantly get them at the end of some random quest that the NPC was involved in; the characters have a reason to be there, and you played an active role in getting them. It builds chemistry between yourself and your party members.

Uh, the same is true for KOTOR2?

Now let's take TSL. Why is Handmaiden actually there?

She was sent by Atris to spy on the Exile and report back on his progress and dealings, however, since he turns out to be quite different from what her mistress described him as AND reminds her of her father, she stays out of her own free will, wanting to learn for him through battle, which is directly tied to her Echani background.

The attachment and trust grows with each sparring session and conversation, to the point when she is attached to the Exile so strongly that she breaks her vow to Atris.

And that is only the core evolution. Did you know you're also travelling with her mother?

Or Visas?

She was sent by Darth Nihilus to weaken you (it's possible the he anticipated she would yield), but since the Exile defeated her (and the Sith favour strength), she submitted herself to him as her new master, either in return for his kindness or out of respect for his might.

And it further evolves the more she is talked to.

Or Mira, for that matter?

She's a bounty hunter that's drawn to you due to the Exile's charisma and the fact that she never actually claimed her bounty on you.

They both have similiar scars, having fought in the Mandalorian Wars and lost many at the battle of Malachor V.

After you turn her into a Jedi and provide a remedy for her fears, it's also gratefulness and the Master/Padawan relationship.

You never feel as if this group has any solid reasons to be on the journey.

You might feel this way, I sure don't.

The entourage in KOTOR1 was more haphazard than anything in KOTOR2. How exactly will a superior officer follow orders from a grunt? Why are Vao and Z still around? Why does Bastila come along (apart from her desire to fuck you)? Canderous?

If you claim KOTOR2 has bad reasons, you can't claim KOTOR1 has good reasons.

Especially since Revan should've dumped Carth out the airlock at the slightest sign of whining.

Bao-Dur has a reason, but he's hardly the strongest character in there anyway.

And what's worse is that the developers know this. That's why they force that tripe about you being a natural leader, and people being influenced by you down your throat. It's one of the weakest explanations for not bothering with character development I've ever seen, and makes me cringe.

So basically, it's an explanation you don't like, so it automatically makes it bad?

Again, you have skimmed through the game instead of paying attention (which is a common thing with your posts, you never quite seem to read anything to the end). It is stated in the game that apart from natural charisma, the Exile also forms Force bonds easily, even more so in his state, leeching it from his team mates, which also affects their desire to be around him.

Then there are individual reasons, some of which I've listed above.

Your party should have motivations for being with you. I cannot feel them. Neither could the developers, sadly.

So I see you know Chris Avellone?

The fact that you don't feel them speaks more about you, than it does about the developers.

Yes, yes, and yes. Made Brianna a Jedi too. So what?

That proves that you didn't pay attention, if you speak about lack of character development.

Making everyone around me into a Jedi is good character development?

And, as usual, you failed to understand my point. If you can't understand a simple forum post, I see how you could fail to understand KOTOR2.

What? No significant change?

Bastila?

Still stays within a pre-defined archetype. Certainly not comparable to the changes Atton or Brianna go through.

Apart from that, you're right to an extent. The character arcs could have been more influential on a character's behaviour. But it was still successful for me because I found out about the character's backstory in interesting ways.

Which is where we differ, I prefer an interesting backstory to an interesting character arc, purely because I can understand the character better.

Zalbaar's mission on Kashykk, for example.

Mira on Dxun. Ravager.

Or meeting Bastila's mother.

Or meeting Twi-Leks who know of Atton's past. Or HK-47, which puts a twist on Revan.

I was playing the game and finding out about the characters at the same time. TSL just doesn't do this; it relies way too heavily on mere conversation. That's not to say that conversation is bad by any means, I enjoy it ... but the old adage that actions speak louder than words could not be more true when you're talking about writing a character.

See, this is where you didn't get the point of TSL. Conversations are an integral part of its gameplay. Obsidian has amazing writers and that is their greatest strength. There is a ton of conversations to be had purely because an emphasis is put on character interaction, rather than characters blowing shit up.

Plus, the biggest turn-off about the character development in TSL was that I got stuck in recurring conversation loops when talking to my party. You can't deny that those loops weren't a result of bad writing.

Bad scripting, yes. Bad writing? No.

There's no such thing as an "epic NPC". I think you may have misunderstood quite a few literary conventions there.

"Epic" was meant as a mocking adjective.

There's an epic tradition of narrative, but the NPCs within that don't necessarily have to follow many strict conventions. But you've been showing quite a bit of contempt for epic storylines merely because they're epic storylines, lately. We've been telling the great epic for hundreds of years, thousands even. Because it's a genre that taps into some very stimulating emotions, especially when you're talking about interactive games. The characters, plots, and historic and societal context change each time though; just because something is an epic, doesn't mean it's the same old rehash. Not all Bioware's games and characters are exactly the same, as you seem to believe.

The execution differs, but at their core they are the same. Saving the world in every game is boring.

I hate epic storylines because they are bland and usually follow the same old "world threatened. hero saves world. everyone cheers hero." routine. I don't like epic works that much, because they aren't complex and ambiguous.

The same emotions can be tapped into (often even more effectively) in non-epic plots, such as Planescape: Torment (where there is no world to save, just finding a way to finally die and figuring out your past) or KOTOR2 (which is an inward journey of the exile, a tale of personal tragedies, rather than saving the galaxy again) and even Westwood's Blade Runner (the question of humanity).

So anyway, if you're sick of epic storylines ... then don't play them.

I play them because they are amusing and to shut people that'd go "u didn't play eeet" up.

I don't think you've understood what you've just said.

I understand it perfectly. You don't seem to.

Roleplaying is taking the role of a character. I named that character. I adjusted his looks and skills to my liking. This character is effectively me within this game world. That is the essense of roleplaying. As soon as you start revealing crucial bits of information to the player, but then assuming that you the player saw them, but the character you're playing did not and so therefore can take no action ... you've created a huge disparity between the experience of the player and the role he's taken on within the game which shatters the immersive experience. I can't roleplay a character if the game will not let me assume that role; it's completely counterproductive to the experience.

That's one approach, and one that is valid in games such as Fallout or Morrowind, which focus on an open world, rather than the narrative.

KOTOR2 focuses on the narrative and giving the player a broader view (such as showing cutscenes and character conversations) is meant to provide exposition and context to the player, so that he can better understand what is happening in the game world.

Consider this example. I'm playing the role of a character who's leading an army storming a castle. I'm then shown a cutscene of the princess inside the castle being tortured. This is a good break of character, as it doesn't show me any information that I don't already know about the gameplay experience I'm roleplaying in. I knew there was a princess, that she was in trouble ... this cut-scene has provided me with incentive to rescue the princess.

Which is what? 99% of the cutscenes in KOTOR2?

Now let's replay that, except the cut-scene is different. This time I'm shown a cut-scene of the princess being tortured, and then the villain sets up a trap which will pour hot oil down on my troops from the ramparts as soon as we enter the gates. I return to control of my character in knowledge that this trap exists ... but I have no control over it. I just have to walk into the gates, and the hot oil falls on me, emaciating my troops. This is a bad break of character, because it's given the player information that should affect how I go into the next part of game, yet I have no control. I'm just walking into something where I now know what's going to happen, thinking "why am I being forced to do this? I know what's going to happen, and it's bad". It's the most frustrating thing a roleplaying game can do to a player; treating you and your character as two separate entities. And that's exactly how it felt when I was playing TSL. A total turn-off.

Please provide me with examples of where it happens in KOTOR2 that doesn't fit in the "good break of character" category.

Yes. It is bad writing. I'm not sure how you could believe it's good.

Let's see: because I actually pay attention when playing and know the context?

 

[Paulaner]

Guys, I think that we are entering the realm of personal taste. I don't like cardboard villains (Mass Effect was lame in that department), but I like some epic storytelling. A game is made up of different ingredients (the plot is one of them) and the overall result is what matters. In my opinion, the writers of TLS had an awesome plot and character design in their mind, but they were not able to deliver what they wanted.

 

[Tagaziel]

Guys, I think that we are entering the realm of personal taste. I don't like cardboard villains (Mass Effect was lame in that department), but I like some epic storytelling. A game is made up of different ingredients (the plot is one of them) and the overall result is what matters. In my opinion, the writers of TLS had an awesome plot and character design in their mind, but they were not able to deliver what they wanted.

They have delivered, but their target audience wasn't the Bioware crowd, but Black Isle crowd.

 

[Paulaner]

They have delivered, but their target audience wasn't the Bioware crowd, but Black Isle crowd.

World is not black or white. We have shades of grey, too

 

[smwScott]

I have to agree that KOTOR 2 would've been every bit the game Mikael thinks it is if they finished it, but as it stands right now I'm closer to siding with Freeman. I loved the story, the characters, and the themes ... but the complete package was just not there. As a game and even as a story it was thoroughly underdeveloped. I still loved it though.

I haven't tried this new restoration pack though, this is based purely on the original.

 

[TheOneFreeMan]

I'm agreeing with Paolo, the majority of this is now down to personal taste, which is never an argument worth having. You like the plot? Good for you. I just personally don't think it's built on very good gameplay principles. Broke the roleplaying experience too much, and revealed too much of the plot too soon for me.

I'd just like to pick up on one thing though ...

[Bioware's] execution differs, but at their core they are the same. Saving the world in every game is boring.

But they do it very well. You don't moan about Pizza Hut only doing pizza, and that eating pizza all the time is boring. When you're tired of pizza, you go eat somewhere else. But when you feel like a really good pizza, you know where to go. When you want a game with an engaging epic storyline, Bioware are hard to beat IMO.