Learning Web Design

sabre0001

sabre0001

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Hello all!

I'm hoping to learn how to build and design webpages over the coming months...However there are no evening courses that are convienient so I am wondering if any of you know of websites that are good to use to go from absolutely beginning to creating a masterpiece!!!

I have only worked with Frontpage and been happy with the results but I want to be able to actually build webpages. Any help is much appreciated...Thanks in advance!
 
get a book on html and another on css and you're set
 
you should also know photoshop ..you cannot live without it ..also you can try Dreamweaver trial version ..it's probably the best tool for learning because it's WYSIWYG + handcoding ..it's a great way of learning html
 
Ok, so you advise to stay away from online tutorials then...

Sorry but what is "WYSIWYG + handcoding"...I'm new to all this but do want to learn...It's definately a skill that will come in handy to me in the future both personally and professionally.
 
I agree with the previous posters. Start with the basics of HTML/CSS and go from there. FrontPage is garbage, so avoid it if at all possible in the future. Dreamweaver is great, as is the rest of the Macromedia Studio 8 package, Flash in particular is going to come in very handy for those truly pretty pages. Learning some Javascript will also be invaluable and potentially serves as a good way to segue into more advanced languages. Good luck and have fun!!
 
sabre0001 said:
Ok, so you advise to stay away from online tutorials then...

Sorry but what is "WYSIWYG + handcoding"...I'm new to all this but do want to learn...It's definately a skill that will come in handy to me in the future both personally and professionally.
Click to expand...

Online tutorials can really help you in the beginning, I'd say start with them first. Once you know the bare basics (HTML) then you can go onto CSS.

WYSIWYG = what you see is what you get

You need to know photoshop.
 
sabre0001 said:
Ok, so you advise to stay away from online tutorials then...

Sorry but what is "WYSIWYG + handcoding"...I'm new to all this but do want to learn...It's definately a skill that will come in handy to me in the future both personally and professionally.
Click to expand...


WYSIWYG: What You See Is What You Get ..it means you can design visually (draw tables cells etc, Dreamweaver writes the html for you ) but also handcode (hand type the html code yourself instead of Dreamweaver writing it for you) if need be
 
sabre0001 said:
Hello all!

I'm hoping to learn how to build and design webpages over the coming months...However there are no evening courses that are convienient so I am wondering if any of you know of websites that are good to use to go from absolutely beginning to creating a masterpiece!!!

I have only worked with Frontpage and been happy with the results but I want to be able to actually build webpages. Any help is much appreciated...Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

www.w3schools.com
 
Fliko said:
www.w3schools.com
Click to expand...

Yes! The best resource where I learned web design myself. Also, use notepad, or a notepad type program with text highlighting is even better. I don't personally like using WYSIWYG because it never seems to work right for me. But use what you like.
 
For an editor, use Notepad++. It's got syntax highlighting and many more options. I never use it because I'm addicted to the normal Notepad, but if you use this from the start, you'll save yourself a lot of trouble :D
 
you should be one of us annoying purists and refuse to code in anything other than notepad. its more work sometimes but it does give you the most thorough grasp of HTML.
 
yet it goes against every design principle imaginable ..coders do not make good designers ...and vice versa
 
Notepad is THE best for coding. Trust me handcoding is the only way to go. I mean if you don't know how to edit and understand actual html your not gonna get to far with javascript and especially PHP.

However for getting started you could look into 1st page 2000. It's a nice editor. You can add in a table, then set up everything for the table. After that it will put the code in there for you. It's a good way to learn the syntax.
http://www.evrsoft.com/

They did release the 2006 version...FINALLY after like a 2 year delay. That one should be free to, I havn't checked anything about it out though.


But yeah W3schools is by far the best resource ever.
 
Download wscite (an opensource code editor) and go from there. Dreamweaver is a great tool for designing sites, but if you want to add any useful code like PHP/ASP/Javascript, do it without the intefering (and usually currupting) confines of Dreamweaver.
 
Beerdude26 said:
For an editor, use Notepad++. It's got syntax highlighting and many more options. I never use it because I'm addicted to the normal Notepad, but if you use this from the start, you'll save yourself a lot of trouble :D
Click to expand...

Ya thats what I used to use. I highly recommend it. A free, open source project which lets you get the handcoding experience, yet at the same time helps you out by highlighting important lines of code.
 
If you can get Dreamweaver then use that. I handcode using dreamweaver. You don't have to use the WYSIWYG if you don't want to.
 
CptStern said:
yet it goes against every design principle imaginable ..coders do not make good designers ...and vice versa
Click to expand...
I've always rather liked my designs, but they're almost fully code-based, with only a header graphic or so. I have a very minimalistic aesthetic sense, but I do concede; I'd undoubtedly make better layouts if I used something like Dreamweaver to coordinate graphics and backend.
 
Ennui said:
I've always rather liked my designs, but they're almost fully code-based, with only a header graphic or so. I have a very minimalistic aesthetic sense, but I do concede; I'd undoubtedly make better layouts if I used something like Dreamweaver to coordinate graphics and backend.
Click to expand...

heh I do most of my designing in illustrator (pen and paper first) then take it from there ..dreamweaver for me is more of compositing app

oh and I've met a few coders who are good designers ..one of our own is quite good in fact: Dreamthrall
 
Raeven0 said:
View --> Page Source

The best way to learn...
Click to expand...
It's how I did it, but I always learn best by taking functioning code and dissecting it and experimenting with it. I learn 3 times faster that way, but everyone learns differently.
 
Well I have been going through w3schools.com and getting on well...Just using Notepad.

Done the section on HTML, XHTML (which should just replace HTML in lessons as you can pick up some habits in the looser version) and have messed around with CSS tables...

Was looking at the Javascript but at the moment I'm unsure what I can do with it...Using the View->Page Source I have seen that most pages use Javascript...hmm...

Definately a good site though...Looking forward to doing Flash too!
 
Skip javascript for now. Learn that later if you want. Javascript lets you do some flashy stuff like pop-out menus and whatnot, but some people have javascript disabled and won't be able to see any of it.

I'd start by learning basic CSS Divs.
 
Javascript is not that important, at all. Most of the useful things you can do with them can be achieved much more simplistically and stylistically with CSS/HTML.

FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS on divs and CSS. It's best to get a book; I learned HTML and CSS by looking at other site's source codes, but this is NOT the best way to do it, especially for CSS.
 
sabre0001 said:
Ok, so you advise to stay away from online tutorials then...
Click to expand...

I learnt everything I needed from the internet...

PHP, CSS and HTML.
 
CptStern said:
oh and I've met a few coders who are good designers ..one of our own is quite good in fact: Dreamthrall
Click to expand...

Why thank you Sternypoo <3

@ the OP:

I'll piggyback on what everyone else is saying here - w3schools is awesome for learning and reference. I've been developing html for nearly 10 years and I still check that site at least once a week. (not necessarily for html, but javascript, css, xml, xpath, etc)

If you're really looking to develop your skills, AVOID WYSIWYG at all costs. Using WYSIWYG is fine if you're just throwing something up very quickly, but learning how HTML actually works by hand coding it will give you a solid foundation for when you move on to other things, like CSS, JavaScript and Server Side languages like ASP.NET, ASP, PHP, ColdFusion, etc.

Once you've got a hand on HTML and CSS, learn JavaScript. No, it isn't necessary, but it'll allow you to do some interesting things with your webpages. Additionally, it will give you an even more thorough understanding of HTML since you'll be working directly with the DOM (document object model).

On top of that, learning JavaScript will give you a basic understanding of programming syntax, which you can use to start yourself off on any number of other more complex programming languages. Also, Flash uses ActionScript, which is essentially JavaScript with objects added in to allow you to work with Flash objects.
 
I would say learn PHP too. The main thing is understanding how it works compared to javascript.

Infact Server Side Languages like PHP and Databases like MYSQL have revolutionized the internet. I've hand written login\logout systems with PHP, simple Forums, Chat Boxes, etc.. It also can make websites easier to design by having less HTML on each page. Also the browser never receives any PHP code.

I've learned that I am a good coder however am a bad designer.
 
I'm pretty good with photoshop... *goes off to make a frontpage in ps7*
 
For server side languages, I'd say go with ASP.NET. Its very easy to pick up and everyone and their brother is using .NET for development. Also, if you learn ASP.NET, creating a Windows app isn't a very big jump. Once you understand the basics (syntax, object orientation, etc), .NET is very learning friendly, with some of the best documentation you'll find anywhere in the .NET SDK.
 
Dreamthrall i'm sure he is far from getting a host that costs $$! ASP does cost money from Microsoft. PHP is free. Mysql is Free. Apache is free. There are plenty of good free hosts that offer the last 3 with a good 100+megs of storage. And you can always run and test offline making things quicker. Not only that but the server requires a windows platform.

Trust me PHP. .Net really isn't that hard....I found learning C# to be a breeze. PHP is free and guess what? This forum was made with PHP. Infact Invision, PHPBB, and VBulletin...the 3 major forums are all PHP based. There are far more websites using PHP and far more support for PHP.
 
Sure, php is free. ASP and ASP.NET are also free. You can download the .NET framework for free, as well as the SDK (documentation). You can even download "express" versions of visual studio for free, but you don't *actually* need them - you can develop .NET applications of any kind with notepad and the compiler that comes with the .NET framework. There are plenty of free ASP.NET hosts too. The only thing not completely "free" about .NET is that you need Windows to run it, and pretty much everyone has Windows. There are also open source projects to allow you to run .NET on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X and Unix.

If he's interested in developing his skills professionally, .NET is what many businesses are developing with. From my experience searching for web development jobs, there are by far many more companies looking for people with .NET and MSSQL skills than php/mysql. Even if you do a quick search on dice.com (its like monster.com for IT related fields), asp.net has roughly 3 times as many hits as php.

If all he's interested in doing is making a personal site, then its really down to preference, because with as little traffic as a personal site will get, there really won't be much difference.

Regardless, I don't want to turn this thread into a .net vs php argument because he's far from learning any server side languages right now.
 
Yes I agree with you there Dreamthrall...Definately no where near learning server side languages...Lets start slow :)

I am enjoying doing it though and it is giving me a slight insight into how different pages work and are designed...Just trying to learn a lot right now and work away on a couple of things...My list of things to learn is:
HTML <Done>
XHTML <Done>
CSS <In Progress>
and then what I have gathered is that I should go
Javascript
Flash
Client side languages
Server side languages

Then I will be interested in these debates! :) Thanks for all your help!
 
You can download the .NET framework for free, as well as the SDK (documentation).
Click to expand...
I know, I love the .net framework. I work with C# and C++(not .net though) on a daily basis.

ASP and ASP.NET are also free.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? A quick look at http://www.asp.net/downloads/default.aspx?tabid=62, I see a bunch of development kits....but no actual way to download ASP to run it on my own computer. I'm sorry but I've heard ASP costs $$ to get from Microsoft so please correct me.

If he's interested in developing his skills professionally, .NET is what many businesses are developing with. From my experience searching for web development jobs, there are by far many more companies looking for people with .NET and MSSQL skills than php/mysql. Even if you do a quick search on dice.com (its like monster.com for IT related fields), asp.net has roughly 3 times as many hits as php.
Click to expand...
No argument there. Although it wouldn't be bad knowing both and putting that on a job resume.

Regardless, I don't want to turn this thread into a .net vs php argument because he's far from learning any server side languages right now.
Click to expand...
Agreed.


I would like to point out, Javascript = Client side language. And i've never been big on flash, if you do decide to learn that go with Flash last. Once you get the basic If's, Loops, Switches, basic syntax.....you'll notice for instance how easy it is to learn javascript and then learn PHP.
 
Minerel said:
Are you sure? A quick look at http://www.asp.net/downloads/default.aspx?tabid=62, I see a bunch of development kits....but no actual way to download ASP to run it on my own computer. I'm sorry but I've heard ASP costs $$ to get from Microsoft so please correct me.
Click to expand...

Those downloads are all free. ASP 3.0 you can run on IIS as long as you have it installed - no additional installations are needed. IIS comes with any "Pro" (Win2k, WinXP) or Server version of the Windows OS, but if you're running a non-server OS, you're limited to 10 concurrent connections. This is fine for development and testing and you're most likely not going to be hosting a website off your desktop computer. Once you have the .NET framework installed, you can run ASP.NET. It is also worthy of noting that MS also offers a free version of MSSQL called SQL Server Express, which is again perfect for development or small to medium sized desktop apps.

Minerel said:
I would like to point out, Javascript = Client side language. And i've never been big on flash, if you do decide to learn that go with Flash last.
Click to expand...

Yes, flash is nice, but but it is candy. If you're good with CSS/Javascript, you can do plenty without needing flash. I'd say start a server side language before flash.
 
Those downloads are all free. ASP 3.0 you can run on IIS as long as you have it installed - no additional installations are needed. IIS comes with any "Pro" (Win2k, WinXP) or Server version of the Windows OS, but if you're running a non-server OS, you're limited to 10 concurrent connections. This is fine for development and testing and you're most likely not going to be hosting a website off your desktop computer. Once you have the .NET framework installed, you can run ASP.NET. It is also worthy of noting that MS also offers a free version of MSSQL called SQL Server Express, which is again perfect for development or small to medium sized desktop apps.
Click to expand...
Those downloads all are free but none of them are for ASP itself. For example I can go to www.php.net and download PHP. So a better way to word this would be a download link for ASP .Net. No IDE or anything.

For a SQL system I would definently go with MySQL. MySQL is not only completely free but on Dice.com for instance, it has 5x the results.

Yes, flash is nice, but but it is candy. If you're good with CSS/Javascript, you can do plenty without needing flash. I'd say start a server side language before flash.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Honestly though I found little I actually wanted to do with Javascript. Me and my friend were both good with building websites. I went off learning javascript while he learned php. After a while we showed eachother our work and I quickly picked up php and started working on things that my friend hadn't thought of to make developing sites even easier.

I would suggest learning a server-side language before a client side language. I find server side languages far more useful than client side languages.
 
Here is something I did and found quite useful. Create a new folder, in this folder create a new txt file. Then rename it to: index.html. Now go to helpful HTML site and go through every single tag and how to use it and apply it to the webpage in some way.

You have now created a useful learning tool.

There is no point thinking about the other scripts until you learn HTML. It's so damn easy and if you can't manage it/can't be bothered. Then you'd be wasting your time on the other languages.
 
Have HTML down and did exactly that...Was just going through all the steps and examples that w3schools had...

Some combinations worked and others didn't but I'm messing around with new stuff as I learn and trying to relate or adapt a little at a time...
 
after you finish learning CSS (and make sure you really master it, see if you can make a layout in the shape of HL2net with no graphics, using only divs, no tables) i'd go on to php/mysql, and then flash after that.
 
Ennui said:
using only divs, no tables
Click to expand...
But I like tables D:

Whereas my friend prefers divs, so when we jointly write Web pages, they turn into horrible mutant bastard structures of interweaved divs and tables from Hell.

Which is probably bad form. I've just never found a reason to get divs when tables work fine.
 
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