Man waterboards himself, conclusion? "It's torture. No question"

[SAJ]

Truly mind-boggling ;

So much talk of waterboarding, so much controversy. But what is it really? How bad? I wanted to write the definitive thread on waterboarding, settle the issue. Torture, or not?

To determine the answer, I knew I had to try it. I looked at my two small children. Surely, in the interests of science?.....

But alas, my wife had objections.

Perhaps her?

Sadly, she is proficient in Ju Jitsu, and I am unlikely to waterboard her.

That leaves me....

...The goal of waterboarding is to simulate drowning without the actual drowning or inhalation into the lungs. In order to accomplish this the subject is forced to lie on an inclined plane with his head lower than his lungs and then water is dumped onto his/her face (always keeping the lungs above the "Water line.") This simulates drowning and causes a panic.

There are some advanced techniques that make this more extreme, but that's the basic concept.

Easy enough to duplicate. I have an inclined weight bench and a watering can. No problem. I lie on this and tilt the watercan to pour water on my mouth and nose. Water goes up my nose causing me to gag and choke and splutter, but after a try or two I'm able to suppress my reflex, relax breathe in shallowly and then expel rapidly (shooting out the water) and maintain my composure. This is not too bad. with my diving experience, you would never break me this way. I can't beleive those AL Zarqawi guys were such pussies.

Back to researching the advanced techniques:

The first of these is wet rag in mouth. I try it. Ok, I can handle this too. It makes it a little bit more difficult to maintain control. I didn't realize it, but the first time around I was selectively breathing through either mouth or nose, to help maintain control. The wet rag eliminates the mouth as an option. You have to really concentrate to maintain control, breathing very shallowly on the inhale and not allowing yourself to exhale until you have a good lungfull with which to expel the water in you nose throat and sinuses. Then, you have to inhale slowly but fast enough to pull in a lungful of air before your nose throat and sinuses fill up. Difficult, but doable with some self-control. I can see where this would get very unpleasant if you lost control, but still, not terrible, not torture, per se in my book. It wasn't as bad as my vasectomy or last root canal, and not nearly so bad as the last OP I read by Liberal.

Next up is saran wrap....

Not too bad so far...

...The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.

It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying....

Sounds nasty, but is it torture? After all the government wouldn`t sanction it if it were torture, would they?

At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.

I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.

And I understood.

Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.

Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.

Once you are there it's all over....

Oh c`mon , it can`t be that bad surely.

...I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.

It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything....

(Link to thread)
It sets out a good argument really. If you can defend water-boarding as a non-torture technique, then surely you must be prepared to try it for yourself.

Any takers?

 

[99.vikram]

Wow...he's either got steel in his balls or air in his head.

It's definitely torture, in violation of human rights norms and very wrong.

 

[CptStern]

but if it's torture then they couldnt prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed because the evidence against him was obtained through the use of that gentle but presuasive form of interrogation known as waterboarding ..and everyone knows US law and international law prohibits testimony that was obtained through torture

http://humanrightswatch.org/press/2001/11/TortureQandA.htm

 

[Dan]

Everyone know that the US doesn't follow international law anyways. There are international laws against fighting wars of aggression and using military threats in diplomacy.

 

[venturon]

Did anyone else think of Room 101 when they read those last two quotes?

 

[Raziaar]

If we don't torture them, they'll follow us home and torture us!

 

[delusional]

Everyone know that the US doesn't follow international law anyways. There are international laws against fighting wars of aggression and using military threats in diplomacy.

International law means nothing if you can't enforce it, it's the equivalency of a law stating you can't wear colored socks. It isn't going to be enforced. We need better enforcement.

 

[Krynn72]

If you dont support waterboarding, you support terrorism.

 

[15357]

Exactly.







Wait a minute....

 

[Eejit]

but if it's torture then they couldnt prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed because the evidence against him was obtained through the use of that gentle but presuasive form of interrogation known as waterboarding ..and everyone knows US law and international law prohibits testimony that was obtained through torture

http://humanrightswatch.org/press/2001/11/TortureQandA.htm

Everyone know that the US doesn't follow international law anyways. There are international laws against fighting wars of aggression and using military threats in diplomacy.

You're missing something there Dan.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Whats the difference between interrogation and torture, because interrogation isn't particularly pleasant either.

 

[Avoidist]

Did anyone else think of Room 101 when they read those last two quotes?

Incredibly much so. Damn rats...

 

[Emporius]

Did anyone else think of Room 101 when they read those last two quotes?

My grade 10 english class was in room 101, and that was when we read 1984. :O

 

[Stigmata]

You're missing something there Dan.

The US has violated its own laws many, many times these past few years.

 

[Solaris]

Whats the difference between interrogation and torture, because interrogation isn't particularly pleasant either.

I think torture is where the main force of coercion is physical pain.

 

[Pesmerga]

Or any type of permanent damage; mental, emotional, or otherwise.

 

[CptStern]

The US has violated its own laws many, many times these past few years.

ya but this incident is more that a little hypocritical in light of statements made by bush outlining his reasons for an invasion of iraq


"America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. " - George W Bush, oct 2002

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html


"In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities -- which the Council said, threatened international peace and security in the region. This demand goes ignored.

Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights found that Iraq continues to commit extremely grave violations of human rights, and that the regime's repression is all pervasive. Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating and burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape." - George W Bush to UN general Assembly, Sept 2002

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020912-1.html




article 1 of the UN Convention Against Torture defines torture as:

1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person

the US has violated the most important points of the UN Convention Against Torture, which they're signatory to and sit on the advisory commitee:

Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.

the iraqi government routinely uses torture
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm

Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

rendition to torture states like Syria and Jordan

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think torture is where the main force of coercion is physical pain.

Aye, torture is a method of interrogation. An interrogation could use torture as one of its tools.

 

[fido139]

Waterboarding

So, whats yer point?
:sniper:

 

[Dan]

You're missing something there Dan.

Please, Bush has pissed all over the US constitution too.

 

[Eejit]

Please, Bush has pissed all over the US constitution too.

He can be held accountable for that though.

 

[CptStern]

So, whats yer point?
:sniper:

ummm ...

"It's torture. No question"

"We do not torture," Mr Bush told reporters during a visit to Panama.

so what's your point?

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

Torture or not it's a ratings bonanza amirite?