Massachusetts Marijuana Law

Tyguy

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Some of you may know that my state recently voted to change the criminal prosecution proceedings regarding marijuana. Basically, if you are caught with weed and it is an ounce or less, it is a $100 fine and a forfeiture of the pot.

I have the entire law copied into the spoiler tag so I don't take up too much room but it's a good read, especially if you live in Mass. :)

Special Bulletin: Marihuana Law
To: All MPTC In-Service Instructors and Professional Staff
Date: 11/11/2008
Re: Ballot Initiative on Marihuana Possession
Greetings my fellow legal instructors: Ballot initiatives that are approved by the voters
become law in thirty days. That is why Question 2, which advocated the decriminalization of
marihuana and was passed overwhelmingly, will take effect on December 4, 2008.
Important disclaimer. Here is my breakdown based on the language in the ballot initiative.
Please stay tuned, because the legislature may amend this law and/or the Attorney General,
Executive Office of Public Safety and Security (EOPSS), or the Massachusetts District
Attorneys Association may weigh in on the issue. In the meantime, I wanted to get you what
information I had, since working officers are asking for guidance.
New section, G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L, makes possession of an ounce or less of marihuana a
civil violation. As of December 4, 2008, G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L1 will subject an offender:
• 18 years old or older
• Who is 18 years old or older; and
• Is in possession of 1 ounce or less of marihuana;
• To:
• A civil penalty of $100;
• Forfeiture of the marihuana
1 This new section effectively repeals those provisions of G.L. c. 94C, ? 34 that penalize the possession of
an ounce or less of Class D marihuana. See Initiative Petition Sheet, Section 5. However, ? 34 still applies
to possession of more than an ounce, including the accompanying authority of G.L. c. 94C, ? 41 that
permits officers to make a warrantless arrest upon probable cause.
Law Enforcement Dimensions
John Sofis Scheft, Esq.
846 Massachusetts Avenue
Arlington, MA 02476-4728
Tel: 781-646-4377 Fax: 781-643-3069
www.ledimensions.com
�� Page 2
• Under 18 years old
• Who is under 18 years old; and
• Is in possession of 1 ounce or less of marihuana;
• To:
• A civil penalty of $100;
• Forfeiture of the marihuana; and
• Completion of a drug awareness program within 1 year of the offense
Nature of drug awareness program. Outlined in G.L. c. 94C, ? 32M, the drug
awareness program shall be developed by the Department of Youth Services
(DYS)2 and must provide “at least four hours of classroom instruction or group
discussion and ten hours of community service.”
Parental notification. G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L mandates that the parents or a legal
guardian receive notification about an offender under 18.3
Consequences for failure to complete drug awareness program.
• The failure of any offender to complete the program within 1 year may
result in the civil fine being increased to $1,000 pursuant to G.L. c. 94C, ??
32L and 32N. Furthermore, the offender and his parents shall be jointly
and individually responsible to pay the fine at that point.
• In addition, if the offender was under 17 at the time of the offense and fails
to complete the program, G.L. c. 94C, ? 32M authorizes commencing a
delinquency proceeding in juvenile court. This step seems designed to
effectively criminalize the misconduct and, upon a delinquency finding,
enable the juvenile court to re-impose the $1,000 fine and drug program
as a condition of probation.
This new law expands the definition of possession to include internal consumption.
G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L states that “’possession of one ounce or less of marihuana’ includes . . .
having cannabinoids or cannabinoid metabolites in the urine, blood, saliva, sweat, hair,
fingernails, toe nails or other tissue or fluid of the human body.” This expanded definition of
possession will justify officers in detaining those individuals who exhibit signs of marihuana
consumption.4 Should signs or an admission of marihuana consumption be confirmed –
even without any seizure of drugs -- officers will be free to impose the civil fine which, for
those individuals under 18, will trigger the additional requirement of a drug awareness
2 A strange choice for the lead agency, since most state educational programs in the drug abuse area are
developed by the Department of Public Health.
3 G.L. c. 94C, ? 32N requires that a copy of the citation be sent or delivered to parents or a legal
guardian.
4 At present, the odor of marihuana on clothing provides probable cause to search. Comm. v. Garden,
451 Mass. 43 (2008).
�� Page 3
program. For those officers who have frequent contact with youths (e.g., SROs), this
authority may become a potent tool to address even signs of casual marihuana consumption.
This new law does not apply to distribution, cultivation, OUI, prescription use, or local
regulations relating to public use. There are five critical limitations in the coverage of G.L.
c. 94C, ? 32L.
• Distribution. The new ? 32L does not repeal laws relating to “selling, manufacturing or
trafficking in marihuana.” This plain language means:
• A person who distributes, or possesses with the intent to distribute, marihuana is still
subject to criminal prosecution – including the offender who engages in these
activities with less than an ounce. See Comm. v. LaPerle, 19 Mass. App. Ct. 424 (1985)
(even drug residue may support a conviction for possession with intent to distribute,
provided that the surrounding circumstances indicate that the drug was, in fact,
possessed for distribution). Comm. v. Sauer, 50 Mass. App. Ct. 299 (2000).
Personal use includes smoking marihuana with someone else at the same time.
When two or more persons simultaneously and jointly acquire possession of a drug for
their own personal use, intending only to share it together, their only potential crime
is simple possession. However, purchasing drugs, even with a friend’s money, is
distribution if the offender transfers the drugs to his friend at a later time. Comm. v.
Minor, 47 Mass. App. Ct. 928 (1999).
• Manufacturing of marihuana remains a crime. Manufacturing is defined by G.L. c.
94C, ? 1 as “production, preparation, propagation . . . or processing of a controlled
substance, either directly or indirectly by extraction from substances of natural origin
. . . except . . . the preparation or compounding of a controlled substance by an
individual for his own use.” Thus, producing or preparing marihuana for anyone’s
separate use, in any amount, subjects the offender to criminal prosecution – although
preparing marihuana strictly for personal use (e.g., rolling a “joint” or “blunt” to
smoke) will not constitute manufacturing.
• Since trafficking requires 50 pounds of marihuana at a minimum, that conduct, of
course, remains criminal.
• Cultivation. The new ? 32L does not make any explicit changes in the law relating to
“cultivation.” This term appears in G.L. c. 94C, ? 32C, which states: “Any person who
knowingly or intentionally manufactures, distributes, dispenses or cultivates, or
possesses with intent to . . . cultivate [marihuana] shall [be punished].” Thus, officers still
have the authority to pursue a criminal charge against anyone who grows marihuana in
any amount.5 Pursuant to G.L. c. 94C, ? 41, officers may arrest this type of violator on
probable cause.
5 “Cultivate” means “to grow or tend (a plant or crop).” The American Heritage Dictionary (Office edition;
4th ed.; Houghton Mifflin Co.). Interestingly, G.L. c. 94C, ? 32C, which prohibits intentionally
�� Page 4
• Operating Under the Influence. According to G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L, all laws relating to
operating under the influence (OUI) of marihuana – see mainly G.L. c. 90, ? 24 – remain
in full force and effect. Thus, the diminished ability to operate a vehicle safely based on
the consumption of any amount of marihuana is still a crime, even though the actual
possession by the impaired operator of an ounce or less is now a civil event.
• Prescription Use. G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L preserves all “laws concerning the unlawful
possession of prescription forms of marihuana or tetrahydrocannabinol such as
Marinol.”6 Presumably, this language leaves intact the application of G.L. c. 94C, ? 33,
which creates a felony for anyone who uses deception to obtain a controlled substance
from a medical practitioner or person authorized to dispense the drug (e.g., a
pharmacist). G.L. c. 94C, ? 37, which makes it a felony to steal any controlled substance
from anyone authorized to possess the drug, also continues to apply.
• Local Law. G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L explicitly allows cities and towns to enact “ordinances and
bylaws regulating or prohibiting the consumption of . . . and . . . public use of marihuana
or tetrahydrocannabinol.” Just as municipalities now penalize the public consumption of
alcohol, ? 32L gives municipalities the “green light” to pass local laws that punish public
marijuana consumption and use.7 Remember, only consumption and use may merit
regulation because simple, public possession is already encompassed by ? 32L and its
civil fine structure.8
Court procedure for marihuana possession cases. G.L. c. 94C, ? 32N sets out the court
procedures applicable to these cases by explicitly incorporating the provisions of G.L. c. 40, ?
21D.9
• Officer procedures. An officer must:
• Issue a citation10 signed by the officer and, if possible, by the offender acknowledging
receipt; and
cultivating marihuana, does not limit its application to any specified amount. Any cultivation, even
that for personal use, draws a potential penalty of HC NMT 2 years, and/or Fine NLT $500, NMT
$5,000. Subsequent offenders face HC NLT 1 year, NMT 2? years, and/or Fine NLT $1,000, NMT
$10,000.
6 The Department of Public Health administers a medical marihuana program. See G.L. Chapter 94D.
7 Absent explicit arrest authority in the ordinance or bylaw, “wilfull” violators will still be subject to “in
presence” arrest based on the authority conferred by G.L. c. 272, ? 59 to local law enforcement.
8 Perhaps the Attorney General’s Office may want to promulgate a model local ordinance or bylaw
dealing with these subjects.
9 G.L. c. 40, ? 21D applies to certain bicycle and littering offenses, as well as any local ordinances or
bylaws. I like to refer to its procedural structure as “confess or contest.”
10 G.L. c. 94C, ? 32N directs the “person in charge” (i.e., the chief) of any police department to issue
citation books to officers that conform to the requirements of G.L. c. 40, ? 21D.
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• Give a copy to the offender:
• At the time and place of the violation; or
• If not possible, by mailing or delivering a copy to the last known residence of the
offender within 15 days of the violation.11
• Give two copies to the police commander, who must retain one copy in a file and
send the other copy to the court clerk on the next court day.
• Offender options. The offender may:
• Confess by appearing in front of the court clerk or by sending through the mail full
payment of the fine; or
• Request a hearing in writing within 21 days after receiving notice of the violation.
• If the offender is found not responsible for the violation at the hearing, he or she
is discharged;
• If the offender is found responsible, he or she may simply pay the fine at that
point, which operates as a final disposition.
• Fail to pay the fine within the time allowed – in which case, the original enforcing
officer may apply for a complaint concerning the violation. 12
• If the parent or guardian of a child under 18 fails to file a certificate with the clerk that
shows the child completed the drug awareness program within a year, then the clerk
will notify the child offender, the parent or guardian, and the enforcing officer about
a show cause hearing to determine whether the fine should be increased to $1,000. In
deciding whether to increase the fine, the clerk may consider the parties’ financial
ability to pay, the offender’s ability to participate in a program, and the availability of
a suitable program.
• Disposition of Fines. Any civil penalties collected for marihuana possession shall be
provided to the town or city where the offense occurred.
11 A certificate that the citation was mailed is considered specific notice to the offender.
12 G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L takes great pains to state that the Commonwealth and its municipalities are
forbidden from imposing any other penalty for possessing an ounce or less of marihuana – for
example, the incident may not disqualify someone from obtaining financial aid, public assistance, a
driver’s license, or an adoption. The incident may never be entered into the CORI system. See G.L. c. 6,
? 167. Furthermore, G.L. c.
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The new law does not appear to affect an officer’s ability to search a person or vehicle.
The fact that a small amount of marihuana now draws a civil fine does not eliminate the
authority of officers to search people, their possessions and their vehicles based on probable
cause. Probable cause deals in probabilities, and officers will not know prior to their search
whether or not the potential offender has more or less than an ounce. The same is true for
vehicle searches. See Comm. v. Garden, 451 Mass. 43 (2008) (smell of “burnt marihuana”
permits officer to search vehicle occupants and the passenger compartment, while smell of
“raw marihuana” authorizes search of passengers, the compartment, and the trunk).
Moreover, even if a civil disposition is mandated, G.L. c. 94C, ? 32L authorizes “forfeiture of
the marihuana.” Any law that mandates drug forfeiture implicitly endorses searches by
police authorities to discover the drugs in the first place. Otherwise, the statutory scheme
will make no sense.
Challenges under the new law. Leaving aside the issue about whether this approach is
good public policy, there remain certain difficulties that officers may encounter when
implementing this law.
First, what happens if an offender refuses to identify himself, making it virtually impossible
for the officer to issue a meaningful citation? Failing to answer this question was a significant
oversight. The legislature may consider amending the statute to authorize arrest for any
offender who fails to provide his name and address upon request, or provides false
information, or provides information that he does not ordinarily use. See G.L. c. 85, ? 11C
(authorizing arrest of bicyclist who fails to identify himself).
Second, may officers run warrant checks of offenders who clearly qualify for a civil fine? The
answer is probably “yes,” given that officers currently check warrants on routine traffic
offenders.
Third, how do officers decide whether the offender possesses an ounce or more? Will they
have to weigh the drugs in the field in close cases? Many offenders will obviously possess
less than an ounce, but some cases may present close calls. Officers will need at least minimal
training in discerning whether an offender possesses an ounce or more.
Are there other issues that you have run into or anticipate? Please do not hesitate to e-mail
me your concerns. And let me know how this law is working “in the trenches.”
As always, I hope this update helps you and your colleagues on the street.
 
I don't think pot will be legalized at the Federal level in my life time. It's pretty gay. An individual should be able to choose what they want to consume. I don't care if it is crack cocaine the government has no business unless some sort of negligence is occuring w/ children etc.
 
Forfeiture of the pot? That's an outrage!

But seriously these local laws are cute, but mean absolutely nothing since federal laws trump them.
 
I don't think pot will be legalized at the Federal level in my life time. It's pretty gay. An individual should be able to choose what they want to consume. I don't care if it is crack cocaine the government has no business unless some sort of negligence is occuring w/ children etc.

I should be able to purchase cyanide caplets in case I'm ever caught by the KGB ....or a rocket launcher in case of zombie apocalypse ...or an ICBM in case I needs to take over the government
 
Because weed is the same thing as cyanide, rocket launchers, and ICBMs.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal. Tobacco should be illegal.

Sure, it might be your choice. But your choice affects those around you who have not made that choice.

I still remember a story where some guy took drugs (crack-cocaine), then threw his children off a bridge. (http://www.newser.com/article/d8u2l...en-to-their-deaths-off-an-alabama-bridge.html)

The children didn't choose to have their father take drugs; he did, and now his children are dead. Sure, there was a catalyst to the event; but if he wasn't taking drugs, he wouldn't have made such a decision.

If it was simply "your choice" and didn't affect anyone around you, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not what happens.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal. Tobacco should be illegal.

Oh shit, I don't think I have enough pop corn stocked up for this. Welcome to the politics board, I hope you brought a flame suit.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal. Tobacco should be illegal.

Sure, it might be your choice. But your choice affects those around you who have not made that choice.

I still remember a story where some guy took drugs (crack-cocaine), then threw his children off a bridge. (http://www.newser.com/article/d8u2l...en-to-their-deaths-off-an-alabama-bridge.html)
The children didn't choose to have their father take drugs; he did, and now his children are dead. Sure, there was a catalyst to the event; but if he wasn't taking drugs, he wouldn't have made such a decision.

so if he wasnt hopped up on crack he wouldnt have thrown his kids off a bridge, plenty of people throw their children off the bridge that arent hopped up on crack so obviously the crack's not to blame ...btw meet cause and effect logical fallacy



If it was simply "your choice" and didn't affect anyone around you, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not what happens.

like how when you go see say Willie Nelson and he's smoking a spliff onstage/throwing his kids off of bridges ..this is a popular pastitme for most stoners: child chuckin. Pro-tip ..they struggle less if you give them a hit before throwing them off a bridge "haul on this little dude, it'll make the fall much more pleasant"
 
so if he wasnt hopped up on crack he wouldnt have thrown his kids off a bridge, plenty of people throw their children off the bridge that arent hopped up on crack so obviously the crack's not to blame ...btw meet cause and effect logical fallacy

I like how you make a cause and effect fallacy yourself when pointing out someone else's.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal.

I advise you read this: http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_culture11.shtml

Some countries have had marijuana legal for decades with no problem.

Tobacco should be illegal.

Because of course making something illegal always works. Naturally.

Sure, it might be your choice. But your choice affects those around you who have not made that choice.

You really know nothing about marijuana do you? I would like to know how me occasionally smoking a bit of weed will cause society to break down around me.

I still remember a story where some guy took drugs (crack-cocaine), then threw his children off a bridge. (http://www.newser.com/article/d8u2l...en-to-their-deaths-off-an-alabama-bridge.html)

The children didn't choose to have their father take drugs; he did, and now his children are dead. Sure, there was a catalyst to the event; but if he wasn't taking drugs, he wouldn't have made such a decision.

If you knew even anything about drugs you would not be foolish enough to compare crack to pot. Nobody is asking for crack cocaine to be legalized. Now try and find a story where someone has been killed by someone on pot (AND where that person is not mentally ill, or on any other drugs at the time). Dare you.

If it was simply "your choice" and didn't affect anyone around you, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not what happens.

Yes, like alcohol.













Oh wait.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal. Tobacco should be illegal.

Sure, it might be your choice. But your choice affects those around you who have not made that choice.

I still remember a story where some guy took drugs (crack-cocaine), then threw his children off a bridge. (http://www.newser.com/article/d8u2l...en-to-their-deaths-off-an-alabama-bridge.html)

The children didn't choose to have their father take drugs; he did, and now his children are dead. Sure, there was a catalyst to the event; but if he wasn't taking drugs, he wouldn't have made such a decision.

If it was simply "your choice" and didn't affect anyone around you, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not what happens.

So how did you arrive from marijuana to crack? Kind of a big leap.

I might also point out that, when marijuana is illegal, it is obtained from street dealers who benefit on hooking you on something very addictive like crack. You won't see that when it can be obtained from licensed points of sale.

And how does cocaine's illegality help with reducing the amount of baby flinging? You do know that the man in the article did it despite crack being illegal?

If cocaine were legal (and by legal I mean state controlled, not supermarket "buy 2 get 1 free" legal) then you most likely wouldn't see the use of crack at all, as state-sponsored cocaine would be cheaper than the low quality, often toxic and more addictive crack. It could be supplied for free to addicts, to prevent them from stealing to support their expensive hobby, whilst helping them to get clean. Rather, you currently penalize people for carrying or using it, which is retarded.
 
I used to think drugs were pretty cool until I smoked some grass and threw my mother out the window.

Bad times.
 
"plenty of people throw their children off the bridge"

Yeah happens all the time...

I ate too many Twinkies and I just HAD to shoot Harvey Milk, it's not my fault.

Will everyone smoking pots be good for the world?
I think not.

Will jailing people for smoking pot be good for the world?
I think not.

I just think it's funny that in Massachusetts you can barely own a gun(a Legal Right thanks to DC v. Heller), yet they want to make it less harsh for owners illegal drugs
Heck I lived off of Boston Common for 2 years, I saw/smelt people smoking pot all the time, yet I never saw a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) bust anyone for it.
I think the state law makers need to get back to work.
 
Hey, Gut Feeling, meet marksiwel.

Marksiwel, meet Gut Feeling.
 
I advise you read this: http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_culture11.shtml

Some countries have had marijuana legal for decades with no problem.

Sorry I didn't address something; I have no problem with drug use for medical purposes, provided it is justified. Public usage is unacceptable.

Also, I can just throw a few articles back at you. The internet is strange like that; you can always find a counter-argument. Even on shit like the Earth isn't round. I believe there's a forum for this group as well.

Here's a couple for you:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/MarijBroch/Marijteens.html
http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

Because of course making something illegal always works. Naturally.

In case you haven't noticed, the USA has been cutting back on tobacco lately, namely in public places and in high taxes on it. This wasn't the case with prohibition. A gradual decline is what the USA is searching for, and it hasn't caused any gigantic uproar. Most people I know who smoke are trying to quit.

You really know nothing about marijuana do you? I would like to know how me occasionally smoking a bit of weed will cause society to break down around me.

Depends on where you're looking (see first response); any addiction is bad. I'm not saying that making marijuana legal would make everyone go out and buy some; but it would certainly cause more people to use it, seeing as it's more difficult, probably more expensive, and more dangerous to get marijuana illegally versus legally.


If you knew even anything about drugs you would not be foolish enough to compare crack to pot. Nobody is asking for crack cocaine to be legalized. Now try and find a story where someone has been killed by someone on pot (AND where that person is not mentally ill, or on any other drugs at the time). Dare you.

Yes, crack is quite a bit more extreme than marijuana. I know this, there's no need to be condescending.

And I'll take you up on that challenge:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051201/marijuana-raises-risk-of-fatal-car-crash
http://www.insidesocal.com/news247/2008/11/man-with-marijuana-in-his-car.html

On this subject; Yes, I know it is nearly, if not completely impossible to die from a marijuana overdose. But it has long term effects, so looking at overdoses isn't really a fair statistic. Look at the cancer-related deaths as well, and while all of them are not caused by the marijuana, I'd be willing to bet a good bit of them are.


Yes, like alcohol.

Oh wait.

I might remind you that driving while drunk is illegal, as is being in public while intoxicated in several states. Not to mention what people get arrested for while intoxicated.

Intoxication, or alcohol overdose, is just as dangerous; that's why it's illegal. Alcohol on it's own, in moderation, does not cause any long-term effects, however. For marijuana, it's debatable whether a non-overdose regular usage can cause long-term effects; I tend to err on the side that smoking any drug causes long-term effects.

__________________________________________

I might also point out that, when marijuana is illegal, it is obtained from street dealers who benefit on hooking you on something very addictive like crack. You won't see that when it can be obtained from licensed points of sale.

Really? What about cigarettes? I would think businesses would use any advantage they could get to cause more sales.

And how does cocaine's illegality help with reducing the amount of baby flinging? You do know that the man in the article did it despite crack being illegal?

Yeah, I'm aware crack is illegal. Making it illegal lessens the amount of people who have it, whether because it's more expensive or because "it's wrong" is not an issue. Furthermore, making it illegal ensures that the people who use it are taken notice of and dealt with, hopefully before they do any damage. Which was not the case with this guy.

If cocaine were legal (and by legal I mean state controlled, not supermarket "buy 2 get 1 free" legal) then you most likely wouldn't see the use of crack at all, as state-sponsored cocaine would be cheaper than the low quality, often toxic and more addictive crack. It could be supplied for free to addicts, to prevent them from stealing to support their expensive hobby, whilst helping them to get clean. Rather, you currently penalize people for carrying or using it, which is retarded.

Let me pose this question then: Why can't it be illegal with a rehabilitation program? Wouldn't making it legal simply allow more people to become addicted, especially with the lower price, meaning more people would have to be in rehabilitation?
 
People busted with possession of marijuana are not in need of rehabilitation.
 
Drugs, like most substances that are easily abused, are, for the most part, for idiots who can't find pleasure / happiness / control in other ways.

I don't actually think legalizing it is going to make a damn bit of difference either way. The people who want to get high are going to do so regardless of law, and the type of people who "won't do it because it's illegal" aren't really likely to do it legally either.
 
He was talking about crack cocaine.

My bad. But since he nonetheless wants marijuana possession to remain a crime, I can't imagine his stance on it being all that dissimilar from his on crack.

Hey Yorick, you seem like a cool dude. Maybe you can teach me how to fill the holes in my drug-addled soul.
 
My friend died from smoking marijuana once.
 

These studies are flawed. After the crash they tested for marijuana in the system. Marijuana stays in your system for up to 60 days, it doesn't mean the person was high at the time of the crash. Doing that is like saying every person that had alcohol in the last 60 days and got in a crash was a dui. But yes, obviously people that get high and drive a car will be more likely to get in an accident, just like people that get drunk and then drive a car.

Alcohol on it's own, in moderation, does not cause any long-term effects, however.
My liver disagrees.
 
Marijuana should never be made legal. Tobacco should be illegal.

Sure, it might be your choice. But your choice affects those around you who have not made that choice.


Scared of freedom tbh. Why should marijuana be criminalized? You have no logical basis for this- even health is ruled out due to use of a vaporizer rather than smoking it.

You realize that by having it illegal you create more crime? Gangs exist to deal drugs because it is an illegal unregulated business. You take away drugs and you crush a majority of their profits. Do you even understand what happened in the 20's with the mafia and alcohol prohibition?

Furthermore what right do you have to regulate what I do with my body? How does what I do affect others as you said? It doesn't. In the least. I can grow kush in my closet and vape at night and it doesn't ever hurt anybody else. It's been linked to REDUCED instances of dementia/alzheimers in old age and is MUCH healther than alcohol as a recreational substance. You have no scientific backing in what you're preaching.
 
How does what I do affect others as you said? It doesn't. In the least. I can grow kush in my closet and vape at night and it doesn't ever hurt anybody else.

Parents smoking tobacco or marijuana around young children is bad.

Of course alcohol is as bad as either when it comes to the numbers of deaths and illnesses it causes directly and indirectly.
 
I would like the production and distribution of drugs like marijuana and LSD, possibly others, to be in the control of organisations which can be legitimately and legally scrutinised. The legal and practical conditions in which drugs are taken, and the druggy subculture that springs up in response, are often as important or more important than the effects of the drugs themselves (for example, the only real way in which cannabis is a 'gateway drug' is that currently to get it you have to mix with drug dealers or people who know drug dealers).

I would also really really like to know why it is legal to buy and sell cigarettes, which are genuinely addictive and, in the long term, highly dangerous, but it is not legal to do the same with marijuana, which is rather less addictive which, in some ways, makes it less dangerous.
 
Sorry I didn't address something; I have no problem with drug use for medical purposes, provided it is justified. Public usage is unacceptable.

I think it's acceptable ..so we are at an impasse ..not that it matters because your opinion i smeaningless ..so is mine ..at least in the context of effecting change, so whether you have objections from a moral standpoint doesnt make a lick of difference ..even less so because it's based on emotion not fact

Also, I can just throw a few articles back at you. The internet is strange like that; you can always find a counter-argument. Even on shit like the Earth isn't round. I believe there's a forum for this group as well.

Here's a couple for you:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/MarijBroch/Marijteens.html
http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

I fail to see what any of this proves, could you copy the relevant quotes that prove or support your point?



Depends on where you're looking (see first response); any addiction is bad.

yes addiction is bad, who knew? however I take umbrage with the fact that you equate marijuana use with addiction ..as if all marijuana users are addicts. you have no evidence to back up your claim ....here's mine:

According to the 2007 World Drug Report by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, Canada has the dubious honour of leading the industrialized world in marijuana use, at least when calculated as a percentage of population

According to the UN report, which is a staple of police forces around the world, 16.8 per cent of Canadians between the ages of 15 and 64 smoked pot or ingested one of its derivatives last year.

that could mean they smoked every day or every 364 days ..10% of that population smoked it everyday which is clinical addiction ..only 10%

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/drugs/users.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/marijuana/statistics.html

In comparison 76.8% of canadians had ingested alcohol in the last year ..9% of canadians abused alcohol in that same time frame ..so clearly alcohol as a dangerous drug is much much more widespread
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alcohol_abuse/stats-country.htm






impaired driving is impaired ..driving while impaired was the cause of the accident ..the joint didnt steer the car into a tree as you're suggesting ("pot causes driving deaths")

On this subject; Yes, I know it is nearly, if not completely impossible to die from a marijuana overdose.

obviously you dont know this because you leave open the possibility of an overdose ..there is NO possibility, you'd literally have to smoke several pounds in one sitting and wouldnt die ..you might die from asphyxiation but not from marijuana ..it is literally impossible to overdose on marijuana

But it has long term effects, so looking at overdoses isn't really a fair statistic. Look at the cancer-related deaths as well, and while all of them are not caused by the marijuana, I'd be willing to bet a good bit of them are.

bets are not good enough ..source please ..oh and you're going to have to prove that those cancer deaths were caused EXCLUSIVELY by marijuana use ..oh and there's many methods of getting high were no carciogenics are produced ..no carciogenics = no cancer causing agents = no cancer ..therefore it is logical to conclude that with proper use there are NO measureable ill effects from marijuana use ..therefore your argument falls apart like a wet newspaper




I might remind you that driving while drunk is illegal, as is being in public while intoxicated in several states. Not to mention what people get arrested for while intoxicated.


this is at best misleading ...drinking and driving is NOT illegal (I can have a beer and drive immediately), driving while impaired is ...this covers every single drug or anything that would make you impaired ..prescription drugs can get you arrested for driving impaired

Intoxication, or alcohol overdose, is just as dangerous; that's why it's illegal.

wrong, it's not just as dangerous, it's far more dangerous as the level of impairment is contingent on the blood alcohol level whereas that doesnt play that significant a role in marijuana use ...apples and oranges comparison

Alcohol on it's own, in moderation, does not cause any long-term effects, however. For marijuana, it's debatable whether a non-overdose regular usage can cause long-term effects; I tend to err on the side that smoking any drug causes long-term effects.

I just proved long term use (when used correctly) has no ill effects, therefore you have no argument
 
Sorry I didn't address something; I have no problem with drug use for medical purposes, provided it is justified. Public usage is unacceptable.

Why? Because you don't like it, so other people mustn't be allowed? And in Amsterdam you can get Pot for recreational purposes, legally, so I don't see what your point about medical marijuana is.


I already knew that marijuana can do all that. I have smoked it. But why should something be illegal because its bad for you. If I smoke weed and get lung cancer (which can be avoided via vaporizer) then I get it. Not you. Me. I get the tumors. I die. Not you.

Secondly, I treat all government websites with a pinch of salt. In school I was taught that you can get weed sprayed with LSD (horseshit, LSD dissolves at room temperature, so even if this was the case, it would have no effect); ecstacy tablets cut with cocaine (cocaine costs a huge amount more than pills, so the dealers would lose a lot of money), etc.

This website is a good website; its unbiased, it backs up its claims, it has actual experiences for every drug ever.

In case you haven't noticed, the USA has been cutting back on tobacco lately, namely in public places and in high taxes on it. This wasn't the case with prohibition. A gradual decline is what the USA is searching for, and it hasn't caused any gigantic uproar. Most people I know who smoke are trying to quit.

Ah, well I don't live in the US :p But a similar thing is happening here in the UK - bans on smoking in places like pubs, high taxes, no advertising, etc. But that is radically different to what you suggested (that tobacco should be banned).

Depends on where you're looking (see first response); any addiction is bad. I'm not saying that making marijuana legal would make everyone go out and buy some; but it would certainly cause more people to use it, seeing as it's more difficult, probably more expensive, and more dangerous to get marijuana illegally versus legally.

I am going to have to disagree with you here. If a teenager wants to get hold of booze, he will need a fake ID, an older brother or a shitload of luck. If a teenager wants to get hold of weed, all he needs is ?20. And it doesn't come for a reliable source either, meaning that he will be in even more danger.

Yes, crack is quite a bit more extreme than marijuana. I know this, there's no need to be condescending.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound patronising. But I don't see why you posted that crack story when we were talking about marijuana.


Pot stays in the body for several days, or if you are a heavy smoker, several weeks. And even assuming they are high when they crash, why not just have a law against driving while intoxicated, like we do with alcohol?


So? He wasn't high, he just had it in his car. With that amount of it he was probably a dealer, not a smoker. That doesn't really prove anything.

On this subject; Yes, I know it is nearly, if not completely impossible to die from a marijuana overdose. But it has long term effects, so looking at overdoses isn't really a fair statistic. Look at the cancer-related deaths as well, and while all of them are not caused by the marijuana, I'd be willing to bet a good bit of them are.

If you use a vaporizer, the risk of lung cancer is reduced to nearly zero. And, a lot of people smoke tobacco with marjiuana, so any statistic showing stoners with higher lung cancer rate is not necessarily a fair test.

I might remind you that driving while drunk is illegal, as is being in public while intoxicated in several states. Not to mention what people get arrested for while intoxicated.

And? Why not have similar laws for marijuana?

Intoxication, or alcohol overdose, is just as dangerous; that's why it's illegal. Alcohol on it's own, in moderation, does not cause any long-term effects, however. For marijuana, it's debatable whether a non-overdose regular usage can cause long-term effects; I tend to err on the side that smoking any drug causes long-term effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol

Except for severe liver, heart, and nervous system problems.

Drugs, like most substances that are easily abused, are, for the most part, for idiots who can't find pleasure / happiness / control in other ways.

I don't actually think legalizing it is going to make a damn bit of difference either way. The people who want to get high are going to do so regardless of law, and the type of people who "won't do it because it's illegal" aren't really likely to do it legally either.

You seem like a smart guy. I love your broad generalizations, with nothing to back them up. Pure genius.
 
I think it's acceptable ..so we are at an impasse ..not that it matters because your opinion i smeaningless ..so is mine ..at least in the context of effecting change, so whether you have objections from a moral standpoint doesnt make a lick of difference ..even less so because it's based on emotion not fact

We're having a discussion. The fact that it won't change anything is irrelevant.

And morality drives society. Laws are based on moral standpoints; It's wrong to kill people, therefore it is illegal. A hobo doesn't contribute anything to society, yet it's still illegal to kill them. Moral standpoint.


I fail to see what any of this proves, could you copy the relevant quotes that prove or support your point?

I pointed you to articles that say marijuana has long-term effects as well as short term effects that can be dangerous. You could try reading them.


yes addiction is bad, who knew? however I take umbrage with the fact that you equate marijuana use with addiction ..as if all marijuana users are addicts. you have no evidence to back up your claim ....here's mine:



that could mean they smoked every day or every 364 days ..10% of that population smoked it everyday which is clinical addiction ..only 10%

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/drugs/users.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/marijuana/statistics.html

In comparison 76.8% of canadians had ingested alcohol in the last year ..9% of canadians abused alcohol in that same time frame ..so clearly alcohol as a dangerous drug is much much more widespread
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alcohol_abuse/stats-country.htm

Are you expecting me not to read your bullshit articles or something? You seem to have a habit of selecting the information you want to see. From your articles:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/marijuana/statistics.html said:
4.5 million
The number of Canadians who used marijuana in 2004 (about 14 per cent of the population), according to Statistics Canada. Males were more likely than females to use pot, and about 70 per cent of those aged 18 to 24 said they use marijuana. The Canadian Medical Association estimates that about 1.5 million Canadians smoke marijuana recreationally.

1.5 million out of 4.5 million use it for recreation. That's 33% who used it regularly. Were they addicted? Some of them probably were, just not as badly as those who used it every day. You also have to take into account the people who lied, since it IS illegal, and some people will still lie (due to fear or shame or whatever). The alcohol one wouldn't have quite as many people who would lie, seeing as it's not illegal to binge. You seem to have missed parts of your statements as well:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/marijuana/statistics.html said:
10 per cent
The proportion of Canadian users of marijuana in 2002 who used it every day.

In 2002. Outdated statistics are outdated.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alcohol_abuse/stats-country.htm#extrapwarning said:
WARNING! EXTRAPOLATED STATISTICS ONLY! Not based on data sources from individual countries. These statistics are calculated extrapolations of various prevalence or incidence rates against the populations of a particular country or region. The statistics used for prevalence/incidence of Alcohol abuse are typically based on US, UK, Canadian or Australian prevalence or incidence statistics, which are then extrapolated using only the population of the other country. This extrapolation calculation is automated and does not take into account any genetic, cultural, environmental, social, racial or other differences across the various countries and regions for which the extrapolated Alcohol abuse statistics below refer to. The extrapolation does not use data sources or statistics about any country other than its population. As such, these extrapolations may be highly inaccurate (especially for developing or third-world countries) and only give a general indication (or even a meaningless indication) as to the actual prevalence or incidence of Alcohol abuse in that region. These statistics are presented only in the hope that they may be interesting to some people.

Inaccurate statistics are inaccurate.


impaired driving is impaired ..driving while impaired was the cause of the accident ..the joint didnt steer the car into a tree as you're suggesting ("pot causes driving deaths")

It contributed. The guy didn't steer the car into the tree without the joint :rolleyes:


obviously you dont know this because you leave open the possibility of an overdose ..there is NO possibility, you'd literally have to smoke several pounds in one sitting and wouldnt die ..you might die from asphyxiation but not from marijuana ..it is literally impossible to overdose on marijuana

Sorry, I worded it unclearly. I meant to say it's impossible to overdose. Shoot me.


bets are not good enough ..source please ..oh and you're going to have to prove that those cancer deaths were caused EXCLUSIVELY by marijuana use ..oh and there's many methods of getting high were no carciogenics are produced ..no carciogenics = no cancer causing agents = no cancer ..therefore it is logical to conclude that with proper use there are NO measureable ill effects from marijuana use ..therefore your argument falls apart like a wet newspaper

And yours doesn't make any sense, but I'll try:

Yes, I know you have to smoke pot to increase cancer rates. No, it's not possible to have any kind of statistic of only marijuana-caused cancer deaths, as it may be genetic as well, and as far as I know there's nothing of the sort out there. Only statistics that say cancer is more prevalent among those who smoke pot.

If you make marijuana legal, however, how do you ensure it's being used correctly?

That's like giving someone a 2-headed screwdriver and telling them they can only use the Phillips head end.

this is at best misleading ...drinking and driving is NOT illegal (I can have a beer and drive immediately), driving while impaired is ...this covers every single drug or anything that would make you impaired ..prescription drugs can get you arrested for driving impaired

False. Many states have laws specifically for alcohol DUI violations, as well as open container laws.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Drivingissues/1104284869.html

wrong, it's not just as dangerous, it's far more dangerous as the level of impairment is contingent on the blood alcohol level whereas that doesnt play that significant a role in marijuana use ...apples and oranges comparison

Uh. Which is why it's illegal?

I just proved long term use (when used correctly) has no ill effects, therefore you have no argument

You haven't proved shit. It's still in debate among scientists, so I don't think you've proved anything. Since you can't be assed to read the articles I linked to, I dunno why you're even still responding.

___________

Edit: Jesus, longass point by Piggy to respond to now. Give me a bit and I'll just edit this one to include it. Probably not going to be for a while since I have to do some stuff.
 
We're having a discussion. The fact that it won't change anything is irrelevant.

And morality drives society. Laws are based on moral standpoints; It's wrong to kill people, therefore it is illegal. A hobo doesn't contribute anything to society, yet it's still illegal to kill them. Moral standpoint.

it was morally ok for people to own slaves at one point, it was morally ok for blacks to drink at separate drinking fountains ..society drives morality, it's an ever shifting line rather than static as you suggest



I pointed you to articles that say marijuana has long-term effects as well as short term effects that can be dangerous. You could try reading them.

the articles in question take the position that it has ill effects if SMOKED ..I stated that with correct use, that is negated, therefore the only "ill efffects" that apply are the short term ones and that is only after prolonged use ..you're not going to get permanent memory loss after smoking a single joint


Are you expecting me not to read your bullshit articles or something? You seem to have a habit of selecting the information you want to see. From your articles:

The number of Canadians who used marijuana in 2004 (about 14 per cent of the population), according to Statistics Canada. Males were more likely than females to use pot, and about 70 per cent of those aged 18 to 24 said they use marijuana. The Canadian Medical Association estimates that about 1.5 million Canadians smoke marijuana recreationally.


1.5 million out of 4.5 million use it for recreation. That's 33% who used it regularly.

no, that's not what the stats say, perhaps you should read my "bullshit articles" (the canadian broadcasting company, and the canadian government are "bullshit" I guess) ..you're cherry picking, and inaccurately at that. It clearly states that

Males were more likely than females to use pot, and about 70 per cent of those aged 18 to 24 said they use marijuana

70% of those aged 18 to 24 ...not all canadians, just those aged 18 to 24 ..it even says:

The Canadian Medical Association estimates that about 1.5 million Canadians smoke marijuana recreationally

the population of canada is 33,390,141

14% of 33 mil is 4.5 million; exactly as I said it was ..and from the same article a few lines above the line you posted:

10 per cent
The proportion of Canadian users of marijuana in 2002 who used it every day

10% of 4.5 mil is 450,000 ..1.5 million is those that use it recreationally ..that could be once a week or once a month or once a year. recreationally =/= addiction




Were they addicted? Some of them probably were, just not as badly as those who used it every day.

yes, 450,000 of them are addicted ..the rest are not because otherwise it wouldnt be "recreational"

You also have to take into account the people who lied, since it IS illegal, and some people will still lie (due to fear or shame or whatever).

perhaps in your neck of the woods, marijuana has straddled the legality fence for years in canada ..it doesnt have nowhere near the stigma that it does south of the border

In 2002. Outdated statistics are outdated.

the other figures are from 2004 ..are you suggesting the 2002 stats are invalid because they're 2 years older than the ones from 2002?



Inaccurate statistics are inaccurate.

ya too bad those figures are supported by the canadian government:


According to the 2004 Canadian Addiction Survey, 79.3% of the Canadian population aged 15 years and older consumed alcohol in the year prior to the survey

and

Of those who reported drinking alcohol in the past year, 44% indicated drinking at least once a week and 9.9% consumed alcohol four or more times a week.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0620-e.htm#prevalence

79.3 translates to 26,168,999 canadians ..9.9 % of 26,168,999 is 2,590,730 or 2.5 million canadians drink more than 4 times a week ..that's almost as much people as said the smoked pot at least ONCE in the last year ....apples to oranges comparison



It contributed. The guy didn't steer the car into the tree without the joint :rolleyes:

you asked him?




Sorry, I worded it unclearly. I meant to say it's impossible to overdose. Shoot me.

no, you meant to make it ambigious, I just called you on it




And yours doesn't make any sense, but I'll try:

Yes, I know you have to smoke pot to increase cancer rates. No, it's not possible to have any kind of statistic of only marijuana-caused cancer deaths, as it may be genetic as well, and as far as I know there's nothing of the sort out there. Only statistics that say cancer is more prevalent among those who smoke pot.

as compared to? do these people also smoke cigarettes?

If you make marijuana legal, however, how do you ensure it's being used correctly?

the same way as force people to smoke cigarettes "correctly" or drink "correctly" or take their medication "correctly" ..personal responsibility has to factor in there somewhere no? you'd rather hand it all over to the government to decide for us

That's like giving someone a 2-headed screwdriver and telling them they can only use the Phillips head end.

no that's like giving someone a drink and saying they shouldnt drink and drive



False. Many states have laws specifically for alcohol DUI violations, as well as open container laws.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Drivingissues/1104284869.html

under the influence means .08% blood alcohol which is catagorized as "impaired" ..so again it is not illegal to drink and drive, I can drink a beer right now and drive LEGALLY



Uh. Which is why it's illegal?

which is why any impairment to driving is illegal



You haven't proved shit. It's still in debate among scientists, so I don't think you've proved anything.

it's debated between scientists as to whether every user is addicted? that's what you are saying throughout this thread, that simple use carries addiction when I've proved that's not the case ..or else it would be 100% of the 4.5 million users are addicted instead of using it "recreationally"


Since you can't be assed to read the articles I linked to, I dunno why you're even still responding.

because they have no bearing on the dicussion at hand? you tried to use it to say there's harmful effects, well there's harmful effects in drinking 400 litres of water in a single sitting, that doesnt mean water is addictive or dangerous .so too does it not in any way shape or form mean that occasional use = addiction or that occasional use will lead to addiction. slippery slope logical fallacy
 
We're having a discussion. The fact that it won't change anything is irrelevant.

And morality drives society. Laws are based on moral standpoints; It's wrong to kill people, therefore it is illegal. A hobo doesn't contribute anything to society, yet it's still illegal to kill them. Moral standpoint.

Not a moral standpoint. Just a logical law that follows an international human rights fundamental right: the right to live for any human, transcending any single society. To argue that's a "moral standpoint" as well would be a bit inane, it's something that almost everyone on the planet agrees with. There's plenty of rational reason for it too, like self-interest and civilization being unable to exist without a universal right to live.

However, pot being "wrong" is a personal conviction and can't and shouldn't be forced onto others. There's also no rational grounds for it.

What's next? Premarital sex should be illegal because there's people who oppose it?

I pointed you to articles that say marijuana has long-term effects as well as short term effects that can be dangerous. You could try reading them.

I have a problem with reading "objective, scientific" material that uses the word "abuse" where "use" should be in an almost infantile small-mindedness. Objective sources should abstain from moral judgement, you realize that right?

But honestly, why would it matter if marijuana has health effects? Shouldn't it be legal because of that? Then why are Twinkies legal? Don't try to protect me from myself, you have no right.


Are you expecting me not to read your bullshit articles or something? You seem to have a habit of selecting the information you want to see. From your articles:

Pot, meet kettle.


1.5 million out of 4.5 million use it for recreation. That's 33% who used it regularly. Were they addicted? Some of them probably were, just not as badly as those who used it every day. You also have to take into account the people who lied, since it IS illegal, and some people will still lie (due to fear or shame or whatever). The alcohol one wouldn't have quite as many people who would lie, seeing as it's not illegal to binge. You seem to have missed parts of your statements as well:

You however forget that a lot of potheads probably think it's actually something to brag about rather than to be ashamed of. And a proper investigation would take lies into account.


In 2002. Outdated statistics are outdated.

Your sources:

NIH Publication No. 04-4037
Printed 1995; Revised November, 1998; Reprinted April, 2001; Revised March, 2003, Revised September, 2004, Revised March 2008

Source: National Institute on Drug Abuse, 1984.

Pot, I don't think I have to introduce you to kettle again. You two seem to be quite familiar.


Inaccurate statistics are inaccurate.

To extrapolate you first need a datasource from which to extrapolate. Which means that there's a region where alcohol abuse is really that prevalent. I don't know which region that is, since I'm not familiar with the research.



It contributed. The guy didn't steer the car into the tree without the joint :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone claims that driving while intoxicated is anything but retarded nor that it shouldn't be highly illegal (since you directly and willingly endanger others). However, someone who is stoned as a shrimp is less likely to drive than someone who is drunk, because alcohol makes one overestimate his abilities. Not that it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.


And yours doesn't make any sense, but I'll try:

Yes, I know you have to smoke pot to increase cancer rates. No, it's not possible to have any kind of statistic of only marijuana-caused cancer deaths, as it may be genetic as well, and as far as I know there's nothing of the sort out there. Only statistics that say cancer is more prevalent among those who smoke pot.

Statistics or GTFO.

But again, don't really care about its health effects, especially not when after 30+ years of research there's still a "debate" as you claim about its effect.

If you make marijuana legal, however, how do you ensure it's being used correctly?



That's like giving someone a 2-headed screwdriver and telling them they can only use the Phillips head end.

Proper education, open discussion, licensed points of sale, quality control, taking it out of control of organized crime.

Also, this thread needs more Ennui.
 
"Freshens your taste"? If by "fresh" you mean "like an ashtray".
 
Parents smoking tobacco or marijuana around young children is bad.

Yes and when I have a kid I won't be smoking/vaporizing around him. In the meantime there is no logical basis that I somehow am harming others.

Unless Kinslayer is going to go so far as to say the plant has feelings and is being murdered when harvested? :LOL:
 
Yes and when I have a kid I won't be smoking/vaporizing around him. In the meantime there is no logical basis that I somehow am harming others.
I was answering your point more generally than just saying you do it.
Smoking (both types) ain't good because lots of parents don't just harm their own health - which is their own choice to make - but also that of their children.
 
Yes and when I have a kid I won't be smoking/vaporizing around him. In the meantime there is no logical basis that I somehow am harming others.

Unless Kinslayer is going to go so far as to say the plant has feelings and is being murdered when harvested? :LOL:
It's true! At least the murder part.
 
I was answering your point more generally than just saying you do it.
Smoking (both types) ain't good because lots of parents don't just harm their own health - which is their own choice to make - but also that of their children.

I'm not supporting using in front of children- but if we want to go technical then vaporization near them doesnt harm either. There's no smoke.

The intoxicated parent can of course but then that all comes back to personal responsibility and is an issue with anything. But I'm just speaking on the substance itself being harmful right now. I know you weren't taking me on but I had to nip it in the bud before kinslayer tried to latch onto it as a valid response to my post directly.




Also today 12-05-08 marks 75 years since alcohol was unbanned in the USA. Ending prohibition severely hurt criminal syndicates and it finally made millions free to do what they have a right to do so long as they don't harm others.
 
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