Microsoft Plans to Kill OpenGL in Vista

[NJspeed]

I've recently heard that Windows Vista is going to drop full OpenGL support, instead "emulating" it using DirectX, resulting in a 50% speed drop!

Anyone else see this on www.opengl.org?

Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience. In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

* OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
* OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
* No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy decision more than a technical decision.

The OpenGL community should encourage hardware & software developers, as well as Microsoft to maintain OpenGL as a first class API under Windows Vista.

 

[OCybrManO]

I think now would be a great time to start pushing computer gaming to go multi-platform... because that's just about the only thing Microsoft is really dominating in. It's even the only reason I still dual-boot Linux and Windows rather than dropping Windows completely.

 

[MiccyNarc]

Umm...doesn't this warrant some sort of anti-trust lawsuit?

 

[Beerdude26]

Aww...
Lindows, where are you in times of need?

 

[JellyWorld]

I figured ATI already killed it with the *****y OpenGL support.

 

[WhiteZero]

I doubt this will be true.
If you lost 50% of your performance with OpenGL, developers wouldent stand for it and not develope for Vista. Which means MS wouldent make as much money with Vista.

MS dosen't want to loose their market share. It'll be fixed.

 

[OCybrManO]

I doubt this will be true.
If you lost 50% of your performance with OpenGL, developers wouldent stand for it and not develope for Vista. Which means MS wouldent make as much money with Vista.

MS dosen't want to loose their market share. It'll be fixed.

By not discouraging the use of OpenGL, games could more easily go multi-platform and take away the last real edge Windows has over the competition... especially now that Apple is going to be moving over to Intel instead of IBM pretty soon. Still, it's not like it would be impossible to code in an extra OpenGL renderer (and anything else covered by DirectX) but it would just be a hassle (and with minimal returns in the beginning) for the developers. As long as the damage done by hurting OpenGL performance is smaller than the damage would be from Linux and Mac OS gaining popularity... it's not really a bad idea, from a money-making POV, for Microsoft to do it. Also, why wouldn't the developers stand for it? Most of them probably already use DirectX anyway. Only a big, stable developer would stand up against Microsoft on moral grounds... because Windows machines are where the money is...

 

[Cole]

I believe this is for AeroGLASS. AeroGlass DEALS WITH THE DESKTOP.
AeroGlass != Shit for games. It is 3d support for the desktop. In other words, since Vista has support for a 3D desktop, if you create a Open GL program for it, Vista will wrap it onto the D3D layer.
So this gives AeroGlass support for Open Gl and not just Dx else programmers might just be stuck with DX for creating add-ons to AeroGlass.

I consider this a good thing.

 

[furiousV]

Hmm. . . .
This has been brought up before, but Microsoft managed to deny that this is the case, looks like things have changed.

Headline News
Submit News
Full performance OpenGL under Windows Vista Aero - Contact your hardware and software manufacturers

Microsoft's first technical beta of Vista layers OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an an application runs using a high-performance OpenGL ICD - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience. Write to your preferred software developer, hardware developer and video card manufacturer and tell them to make sure Microsoft solves this problem before release and fully supports OpenGL ICDs within Aero. Hardware and software vendors listen to developers. Don't be passive - send those emails and keep the topic in the foreground

This is taken from the opengl.org home page.

Has anybody started a petition yet?

 

[WhiteZero]

Has anybody started a petition yet?

Online petitions never work...

Something like this you want to physically send a letter.

Besides, everyone seems to forget that this is a BETA. So it would have probably been fixed anyway...

 

[Cole]

Microsoft's first technical beta of Vista layers OpenGL over Direct3D

Just seen that thanks to you Whitezero!
THANK YOU A SHITLOAD FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

 

[furiousV]

It would make sense, seeing it is a move towards Microsofts vision towards the one unit entertainment center (the DVD/TV/CD-Player/Gaming System all-in-one), and of course, being their own product running off DirectX, and to do this they must somehow destroy any kind of opposition, OpenGL.

But then, their plan is just backfiring, as game developers will simply decide to start developing for Linux and other OSes if they become very limited in their choice all of a sudden.
I can see creators of Doom and Quake doing so, as they primarily use OpenGL for their games.

Microsoft haven't exactly confirmed anything, nor denied anything just yet.
Best thing is to wait, and see what happens. Rumours aren't necessarily always true.
It might just be a rather successfull Microsoft-basher's story being taken a little too far and too seriously.

If Microsoft really are going to kill OpenGL in Vista already, then the majority of Windows users will just stick with XP and simply not buy Vista, nobody is making you buy it.

It's too early to say anything

And for physical petition, the person who created it could print it out, will take quite a bit of paper, but should have the same effect as paper.

 

[WhiteZero]

Microsofts vision towards the one unit entertainment center (the DVD/TV/CD-Player/Gaming System all-in-one)

erm.. Windows is already all of that.

 

[Cole]

btw Microsoft can't kill open gl.
Tell me, what does Ps2 and gamecube use?
Open GL. Tell me what is the Ps3 and Revolution(probably) going to use.....
Open GL.

 

[Smallwood2000]

microsoft have aloyt of money

they will be obviously improving the direct x engine for the new windows

microsofts untimate plan is not to use any outside companys to makw there profits- note the new antispy and firewall from windows.

Microsoft will manage this i reacon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4266258.stm



check this one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4516269.stm

microsoft have invested so much money this year and the next one if a few products fail then they could go bankrupt sounds impossible.

after 2 years witch i think is febury 2007 microsoft will once again be this planets biggest company.

 

[poseyjmac]

But then, their plan is just backfiring, as game developers will simply decide to start developing for Linux and other OSes if they become very limited in their choice all of a sudden.
I can see creators of Doom and Quake doing so, as they primarily use OpenGL for their games.

i doubt it. gamers don't have linux or other oses, so no publisher would ever get behind a dev that would do that knowing the dismal sales that would await them. even ID.

i dont see any problem killing off opengl. its not like half the games use opengl in games today. game devs must follow MS's lead if they want to sell games. this is a given. now if directx had less features than opengl and was crap, then it would be a problem and id be up in arms. the thing is, thats not the case. its a great API, so why not standardize a good thing once and for all?

 

[OCybrManO]

id Software has a history of making Linux ports. For example, Doom 3 runs in Linux. Even if you have to use DirectX for Windows it's not like you have to only support one or the other. Even if Microsoft were to completely disable OpenGL in Vista, the developers could do like Valve did with the original Half-Life and support both of the APIs. The real problem is the Catch-22 of Linux game development: The only reason there aren't games for Linux is that there aren't enough gamers using Linux... and the reason there aren't enough gamers using Linux is that there aren't enough games for Linux.

 

[poseyjmac]

what i meant was a dev that only develops for linux because MS has no opengl support will get dismal sales.

 

[OCybrManO]

That's stating the obvious.

 

[furiousV]

It's the chicken and egg theory about games and linux.
There ARE linux gamers, and these people are currently using emulators.
The only reason I am currently using windows for gaming is because of the obvious, and Xfire, as with the majority of gamers. If in the next few years, game developers suddenly start writing games for linux, Windows will have no place on my hard drive.

If game developers actually took more effort on making their games work on linux, I'm sure the number of people using linux for their gaming OS will rise.
It really cannot be that hard if they use OpenGL in the first place (im not saying that is the only reason to ditch DirectX), seeing as most game developers take the effort to make a linux dedicated server for the game.
Plus, all the fresh game developers out of Uni will just have been spending the last few years learning about Microsoft's DirectX, then of course they are going to program in that in their new jobs. It's also being too lazy to go out and learn something new. And I doubt that this will trigger ID and other companies that use OpenGL primarily to simply start using DirectX just for that reason.

And having "one" API standard for ALL games is not something good, its a monopoly. Game developers wont be taking microsofts lead, they will be controlled by them, as we gamers.


And what I said earlier about Microsofts vision of the one-unit entertainment centre. . . they want to get rid of hte PC altogether and have it as something in front of you in the living room, pretty much like your Xbox as your TV/DVD Player/Radio/Music Player/Gaming System. . . its kinda scary
But currently, the Xbox is sooo bloody noisy to be a DVD Player.

 

[poseyjmac]

That's stating the obvious.

not obvious enough to catch it the first time apparently..

 

[OCybrManO]

not obvious enough to catch it the first time apparently..

If I meant the previous post (#17) to be directed to your statement, I would have quoted it... as I always do. It was meant as a basic analysis of the current state of affairs in the non-Windows gaming scene. Also, if you look back near the beginning of the thread (#7) you will see that I already said basically the same thing you were trying to say about developers either not wanting to or not being able to leave Windows, albeit worded a bit differently. So, actually, it was obvious enough that it was mentioned even before you decided to mention it... :thumbs:

 

[DreamThrall]

I believe this is for AeroGLASS. AeroGlass DEALS WITH THE DESKTOP.
AeroGlass != Shit for games. It is 3d support for the desktop. In other words, since Vista has support for a 3D desktop, if you create a Open GL program for it, Vista will wrap it onto the D3D layer.

Quoted, since it seems I'm the only one who noticed this post...

 

[sinkoman]

I hate you all.

I made a topic on this a VERY long while back, but people said that Microsoft would never alienate OpenGL, and that it was bullcocky.

 

[OCybrManO]

Quoted, since it seems I'm the only one who noticed this post...

Yeah, we don't care. We're talking about a hypothetical situation.