My answer to whether humans will colonize space...

[Saturos]

...is right here. In Jverne's thread.

Ants are perfect communists. So are bees, as so are the aliens from Independence Day.

They do not strive for their own gain, but for the gain of the colony as a whole, but they also have no freedom, nor personal belongings. Everything belongs to the colony, not one individual has personal ownership. The entire colony thinks and acts as a single organism, with only one being doing all the thinking. (The queen, motherbrain, dictator, etc.)

A perfect world-wide communist regime is the only way humans will ever colonize space, as such an undertaking is far to great for any one country to shoulder. Unfortunately, human nature dictates, so such a regime will almost assuredly fail. Humans are just too selfish.


Bottom line: Humans will never colonize space a.l.a Mass Effect, Star Wars, or Star Trek, so it would be best for us sci-fi nerds wishing to see when that day comes to just get over that now so we can go about our daily lives of buying, selling, ripping one another off, counting money and playing stocks, and possibly owning anything and everything any citizen of a communist regime could only dream of having. That's human nature and why communism doesn't work, and neither will space colonies. The International Space Station, Mars and the moon will probably be as far as our countries' space programmes will go.

Just in case anyone who's interested in this sort of thing, but dares not to step into the politics forum doesn't see this.

This is so interesting to me, I feel it really deserves it's own thread. What are some opinions on mass space colonization around here? I'm rather skeptical on this.

 

[Yorick]

The International Space Station, Mars and the moon will probably be as far as our countries' space programmes will go.

Hopefully you're wrong on this count. The world is already growing to a point where population is a problem. Food is being grown literally everywhere it can be. While there are still parts of the world with scarce / sparse populations, in the next 100 years it could become a huge problem. We've gotta have somewhere to go.

And yeah, space won't be communistic. If anything it'll be a monarchy, since all the rich people will be the first ones to get out there and establish anything they damn well please.

 

[Naph]

Yeah selfish.
The money used to structure a space travel mission could be used to settle things back on earth. Eg World Hunger

 

[Sulkdodds]

So because a communistic system would be the best for getting into space, no other system ever will? Yeah, that logic makes sense...

If we somehow overcome our energy dependences and our screwing up of the planet any day soon, we'll probably subsequently find the time and resources to start expanding into space for prophet. Certain structures like space elevators and livable space habitats would, once built, make further expansion sustainable, and eventually pay back their costs hundredfold.

I personally don't think it'll ever happen because I think it's downhill from here; I'm unconvinced we'll ever get our shit in shape. But I want it so much to happen. Even if it's a bad political system taking us out there. I just want us to do it and I think it's extremely important for the long-term survivability of the species.

And yeah, space won't be communistic. If anything it'll be a monarchy, since all the rich people will be the first ones to get out there and establish anything they damn well please.

What will they 'establish'? Walls?

Space engenders social change.

The thought processes of a tribe, a clan, a country or a nation-state are essentially two-dimensional, and the nature of their power depends on the same flatness. Territory is all-important; resources, living-space, lines of communication; all are determined by the nature of the plane (that the plane is in fact a sphere is irrelevant here); that surface, and the fact the species concerned are bound to it during their evolution, determines the mind-set of a ground-living species....essentially the contention is that our currently dominant power systems cannot long survive in space; beyond a certain technological level a degree of anarchy is arguably inevitable and anyway preferable.

(Read up to the second line break at "practice (as ever) will outshine theory", or onward only if you're interested in a description of an imaginary society)

 

[Eejit]

Ah, good old Culture.


We really need a space elevator at some point. It would make the whole space colonisation thing so much easier.

 

[Ravioli]

In a communistic regime there is no strive for education or creativity because everyone gets the same share of everything by doing just what they are told. The guy loading the truck with boxes makes the same pay as the woman sewing the uniforms. So education serves no purpose, why be a doctor where you have to deal with stress etc, when you make the same pay as some dude sweeping the floor? Therefore, everyone does what he/she is told without enthusiasm, so theres no point in being an austronaut, or a rocket scientist. Why go through all that trouble for nothing? So the government tries to force the selected few to focus on space travel...and you know how good that went with the soviets...

 

[Sulkdodds]

So the government tries to force the selected few to focus on space travel...and you know how good that went with the soviets...

Er, yeah. They put a satellite in orbit first, put an animal in space first, put a man in space first, and put an object on the moon first.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Pff, communism. All we have to do is wait for the wealthy elite in Dubai to get bored and self-indulgent enough to start their own space program, and we're set. I give it two years, tops.

Edit - Also, I need to read up on the concept of a space elevator some more. I've seen various different incarnations in science fiction, but I still can't fathom how on (or off) Earth it would actually work...

 

[Kula Meenur]

Methinks for humanity to survive at any rate, the worlds population must be curbed.

 

[Ravioli]

Er, yeah. They put a satellite in orbit first, put an animal in space first, put a man in space first, and put an object on the moon first.

Exacly, and then??? Thats right, nothing, communism collapses on itself within time.

 

[Vigilante]

Er, yeah. They put a satellite in orbit first, put an animal in space first, put a man in space first, and put an object on the moon first.

They beat the US by like, a week, or something for a lot of those. Might as well be a tie.

Okay, maybe not a week, but still. I think the US was like 15 days away from putting a man in space when they found on the USSR had.

 

[kattmat]

So what? Their space program was still highly succesful.

 

[Vigilante]

So what? Their space program was still highly succesful.

As was the United States'. Just because they had a successful space program doesn't mean communism is the way into space. I think beating them to the moon was a much, much harder task that shooting something at the moon.

Capitalism (or, free market at least) breeds private innovation. It's going to be needed if we're ever to colonize.

 

[Mr Stabby]

We will never go out side our solar system beacuse it's too far away faster than light travel is physically impoosible. Communism is terrible, what are the worlds 3 most advanced countries at engineering USA, Japan and Germany, they're not communist.

 

[Omnomnick]

We have one planet, why do we need more? :|

Greedy bastards :dozey:

 

[Remus]

We have one planet, why do we need more? :|

Greedy bastards :dozey:

Because in the long run we don't have a choice.
Unless you would prefer a Combine style forced sterilization.

 

[Lucid]

It'll happen.
Just probably not in our lifetime and probably not in our kid's lifetime.

 

[Eejit]

We have one planet, why do we need more? :|

Greedy bastards :dozey:

While we're on one planet we're vulnerable to being wiped out by chance meteor impacts.

We effectively have all our eggs in one basket.

 

[Omnomnick]

Because in the long run we don't have a choice.
Unless you would prefer a Combine style forced sterilization.

Combine please?

(It was a joke btw :hmph:, I think it'd be great to colonize another planet)

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Due to the way the financial world works, we won't colonize space en masse for probably 100 years.
However the technology race will ensure that we will always improve upon a process or product that
makes space accomadations and vehicles improved and safer to use.

There will be a crunch point whereby requisite technologies will both be financially viable and easy to
produce, that humanity (If they managed to survive) has no choice but to reach for the stars.

 

[Kase]

it will happen sooner or later

 

[Ennui]

...is right here. In Jverne's thread.
Just in case anyone who's interested in this sort of thing, but dares not to step into the politics forum doesn't see this.

This is so interesting to me, I feel it really deserves it's own thread. What are some opinions on mass space colonization around here? I'm rather skeptical on this.

Yeah, well there were dudes skeptical of the wheel once.

 

[Kase]

Yeah, well there were dudes skeptical of the wheel once.

i'm still skeptical of the wheel evil round moving thing its the devil i tells ya the devil!

 

[VirusType2]

I completely forgot what I was going to say. An example of capitalism.

A private space flight to dock with a space station launched just days ago.

I heard about it on the radio yesterday.


Also don't forget about Virgin Galactic, who has agreed to do some testing on their private spaceflight charters.

A few recent developments involving Virgin Galactic:

Virgin Galactic has struck a deal with NOAA to collect atmospheric data on WhiteKnightTwo and SpaceShipTwo flights. The vehicles will be equipped with sensors to measure carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the upper atmosphere; the sensors will sample air from existing systems that collect air for use by the airspeed sensors on the vehicles, thus requiring no additional modifications. The initial agreement covers the approximately 200 test flights for the WK2 prototype.

Those test flights have yet to begin, and Flight International reported this week that the first test flights have been pushed back to later this year. The test flights were slated to begin in September when WK2 was rolled out in late July in Mojave.

Virgin officials also said this week that they are still interested in conducting flights from Scotland, starting in 2013

As for the US, we have space missions all the time, and have something in the works at all times. For some reason, people find it hardly news worthy anymore.

China has plans to be on the Moon just a couple years before our plan to return there.

 

[Tyguy]

The world is going to end when China switches over to IP6. we don't havea chance

 

[Escaep]

I believe something like a small little moon base is not terribly far off. I envision seeing it get started in as little as 20-25 years. Maybe. Maybe. I believe that once the new NASA program gets going with the new rockets then we may start going back to the moon. Maybe then 20 or 30 years down the road we will have a moon base that we can use to launch manned missions to mars.


that is all hypothetical though. hopefully the next president keeps the funding there for NASA.

 

[PvtRyan]

If we somehow overcome our energy dependences and our screwing up of the planet any day soon, we'll probably subsequently find the time and resources to start expanding into space for prophet.

The prophet, Muhammad? Yes, lets reach for the stars to get closer to Allah!

 

[AJ Rimmer]

As was the United States'. Just because they had a successful space program doesn't mean communism is the way into space.

It's not, but Ravioli made it sound as if the Soviets were failing enormously with their space program, and they sure as hell weren't. Pretty much until 1968 they were ahead or in a tie with the US. And even after Apollo 11 they still established the first space station and still has had the longest surviving station of any space program. Hell, in a few years when NASA retires the Space Shuttle, Russian rockets produced during the communist era might be the only way to get to the International Space Station. If the Russians *had* beaten America to the moon, NASA might have lost a lot of its funding and experienced a downturn similar to that of the Russians.

I think it's a damn shame we haven't come further in space exploration. Look at it anyway you like, there's no denying that after the Apollo landings the space program lost momentum. There was Skylab, the shuttle and Hubble and a whole bunch of probes but nothing like the giant steps of the sixties. The ISS is damn awesome, a permanent habitat in space, but it needs to be utilized. And of course we'll go beyond the moon given time, but we could be moving faster than we are, and we should. Why? Cause space is coooooool.

 

[morgs]

If mankind ever does colonize space, we'll most likely all be eaten by xenomorphs anyway

 

[ReconToaster]

The question is, What will we do if and when we establish a colony? We can't just ship a couple billion unwilling humans to a new, barely operating planet. Are we just going to let the race die out on earth and start again on the new planet?

I strongly believe in the expansion of the human race into space, but I don't think we should be using it as a cop-out for population control. We need to be controlling the population RIGHT NOW. We need to take after China and start limiting childbirths world-wide.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I don't agree that communism is needed for space colonization, though it would probably comes faster. But communism requires perfect obedience, not happening; and if you're talking about keeping balance between planets and stuff with the system, an iron grip not unlike Darth Vaders', only more successful over time.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

The question is, What will we do if and when we establish a colony? We can't just ship a couple billion unwilling humans to a new, barely operating planet.

Well, to begin with such a colony would presumably start off very small and only need as many people living on it as are required to run it until it grows into a sufficiently operating place to live. If/as it grows, one could offer tax incentives, cheap living and other bonuses for people to live there, same way as governments try to influence people to live where they want them to live here on Earth. It's not a cop-out for population control, it's the only viable option. Yes we can put it off for a hundred years, or maybe many hundred years depending on what measures we take but the human race constantly grows in size, it has done so through all of its recorded history and eventually the Earth will run out of space, if not resources. Even if we were to populate our oceans, eventually we will run out of space and, well... space, will be the only place with more... space. Space. SPACE!

 

[kupocake]

We'll 'colonise' space as soon as we sort out our major problems down here. And whilst the flower child in my screams 'World Peace, and Beyond!', we all know that basically means we'll be forced to move on because the problems will become unsolvable (that's resolution enough).

So basically what I'm saying is, let's drop Juno on the earth to punish those whose souls are weighed down by gravity. Who's with me?

 

[theotherguy]

Ants are perfect communists. So are bees, as so are the aliens from Independence Day.

They do not strive for their own gain, but for the gain of the colony as a whole, but they also have no freedom, nor personal belongings. Everything belongs to the colony, not one individual has personal ownership. The entire colony thinks and acts as a single organism, with only one being doing all the thinking. (The queen, motherbrain, dictator, etc.)

A perfect world-wide communist regime is the only way humans will ever colonize space, as such an undertaking is far to great for any one country to shoulder. Unfortunately, human nature dictates, so such a regime will almost assuredly fail. Humans are just too selfish.


Bottom line: Humans will never colonize space a.l.a Mass Effect, Star Wars, or Star Trek, so it would be best for us sci-fi nerds wishing to see when that day comes to just get over that now so we can go about our daily lives of buying, selling, ripping one another off, counting money and playing stocks, and possibly owning anything and everything any citizen of a communist regime could only dream of having. That's human nature and why communism doesn't work, and neither will space colonies. The International Space Station, Mars and the moon will probably be as far as our countries' space programmes will go.

Diagramming this argument:

P1. Ants, Bees, and fictional aliens from movies are "perfect communists".
P2. A perfect communistic society has all of the individuals working towards colonial gain, with individual gain taken as irrelevant.
P3. Colonizing space is too costly for one nation to do. Many, or all nations would have to cooperate to do this.

C. The only way to colonize space is with a perfect communist regime.

Eh, sorry, this is not sufficient at all to go from P1+P2+P3 to C. First of all, P1 is a faulty analogy. Humans are not like ants. Ants are not like communists. Humans have reason and desire, ants do not. Humans have leaders and politicians, ants do not. Secondly, just because P3 is true, it does not follow then that the "only" way to colonize space is to have a communist regime.

"If you have a communist regime, you can colonize space" is not equivalent to

"You can colonize space if and only if you have a communist regime." There may be other, more feasible means of getting nations to "cooperate" without getting rid of capitalism.

For instance, global corporate entities could serve the same role as overarching communist regimes, but within the framework of capitalism.

 

[Ennui]

Or a one-world benevolent fascist government.

 

[JFry]

I think it's inevitable that we will colonize our solar system and I'm not convinced that interstellar travel is impossible. It's rather arrogant to claim we fully understand time and space. However, the rate at which we are discovering new things is raising exponentially and for all our downfalls humans are incredibly resourceful creatures. It's actually something that makes atheism not seem like such a bad thing. Long after we're dead and gone humanity will struggle on.

It makes me wish we would work on our social problems and not worry so much about production and modern life. We waste so much time and resources on senseless wars and recreating the same product 30 different ways then shipping it across the globe past 4 closer producers of the same product all in the name of making a buck. I think it would be better for our species (not to mention all the other life on earth) if we could admit to ourselves that we don't necessarily need a better toothbrush. If we devoted as many resources and people on researching new ideas we could all be living more comfortably while solving problems like pollution. Things like robots, clean energy, sustainable space habitats (ISS) are all proving to be feasible. All we really need to do is focus our efforts as a species, right now we are working against each other. In the grand scheme of things the possibility of hostile aliens existing should be enough incentive for us to not go around killing each other for them.

While it's certainly possible we could be entirely wiped out in a plethora of ways I think humanity is still in it's infancy and we will evolve far beyond what we are now and expand our territory in the universe. I think it's even possible we will someday find the universe is just a fraction of whatever may exist beyond it. Who's to say our universe isn't the scale of a particle when compared to the next tier? We may be truly insignificant in that sense, and if you believe the universe(or whatever) is infinite then in theory there must be "god/s" out there somewhere, along with an infinite list of things grander than god.
Mind-boggling stuff. Sorry, turned into a bit of a rant.

 

[Seppo]

Terraforming