Newsweek was right. Uncorroborated.

[MjM]

Meanwhile, not so fast on the Newsweek retraction: the ACLU has obtained and released summaries of FBI interviews in which nearly a dozen Guantanamo detainees make claims about the abuse of the Koran, including one who says guards there - yes - "flushed a Koran in the toilet." These are only prisoner interviews and therefore difficult or impossible to corroborate, and at least two of the claims are hearsay, but the list of allegations to the same effect just keeps getting longer. The WaPo story story says:

A Defense Department spokesman was not immediately available for comment today. Pentagon officials have said previously that detainee allegations about the Koran have not been considered credible, although authorities have launched an internal review in the wake of the Newsweek controversy.
Amrit Singh, an ACLU attorney, said in a press release that "the United States' own documents show that it has known of numerous allegations of Koran desecration for a significant period of time."
"The failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorised by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place," Singh said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/25/AR2005052501395.html
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,2197.sm

I knew this story came from somewhere.

 

[Hapless]

Well, if you read captured Al-Qaeda training materials which are posted on the net, you would see that one of their tactics is to make allegations regarding torture and things such as the Koran allegations in order to discredit the enemy and turn opinion against them. Them being the U.S. in this instance. Just because alot of people tell a lie doesn't mean it's true.

 

[MjM]

And how many were actually proven to be al Qaeda? A percentage less than 10 i would guess. Just because they are muslims doesnt make them al Qaeda.

In fact now that i think about, they probably wouldnt even take statements of those who were found to be al Qaeda.

 

[Hapless]

"Who? Me? Al-Qaeda? Nooooooooooo, I'm not Al-Qaeda. I knew a guy named Joe Qaeda once. Any relation?"

Just because they were Muslims who happened to be fighting Americans along with Al-Qaeda members. Use your head.

 

[DreamThrall]

Just because alot of people tell a lie doesn't mean it's true.

*cough* tell that to the Bush admin.... seemed to work for them.

 

[PickledGecko]

"Who? Me? Al-Qaeda? Nooooooooooo, I'm not Al-Qaeda. I knew a guy named Joe Qaeda once. Any relation?"

Just because they were Muslims who happened to be fighting Americans along with Al-Qaeda members. Use your head.

Just because they’re Muslims and militants doesn’t make them Al-Qaeda members. In fact, if you bothered to look into the situation of Afghanistan instead of taking everything the American government says as gospel, then you would realise that the vast majority of training camps in Afghanistan had nothing to do with international terrorism. They were in fact training camps to train Muslims from around the world to go back to their own country and try and instil a “more Muslim” government. Also, a large number of foreigners moved to Afghanistan specifically to fight for the Taliban, they saw the war as a Christian “crusade” against Muslims and went to defend them.

 

[CptStern]

Well, if you read captured Al-Qaeda training materials which are posted on the net, you would see that one of their tactics is to make allegations regarding torture and things such as the Koran allegations in order to discredit the enemy and turn opinion against them. Them being the U.S. in this instance. Just because alot of people tell a lie doesn't mean it's true.

but surely even you must recognise that if this can happen so can that

 

[Hapless]

Just because they’re Muslims and militants doesn’t make them Al-Qaeda members. In fact, if you bothered to look into the situation of Afghanistan instead of taking everything the American government says as gospel, then you would realise that the vast majority of training camps in Afghanistan had nothing to do with international terrorism. They were in fact training camps to train Muslims from around the world to go back to their own country and try and instil a “more Muslim” government. Also, a large number of foreigners moved to Afghanistan specifically to fight for the Taliban, they saw the war as a Christian “crusade” against Muslims and went to defend them.

Taliban=Al-Qaeda. But I know nothing, since I take everything the American government says as gospel.

 

[Hapless]

but surely even you must recognise that if this can happen so can that

Absolutely. But anything they say, without corroboration, should be highly suspect based on their stated tactics. That's all I'm saying. Seriously, what else is going to inflame Muslims against the U.S. more than saying, "They flushed a Koran down the toilet."

 

[CptStern]

Absolutely. But anything they say, without corroboration, should be highly suspect based on their stated tactics. That's all I'm saying. Seriously, what else is going to inflame Muslims against the U.S. more than saying, "They flushed a Koran down the toilet."

yes but you invaded iraq with much less evidence (based on the word of an: idiot, a terrorist, and a murderer) ...yet you didnt seem to have a problem with that ...even though it should be highly suspect based on their stated tactics

 

[Hapless]

yes but you invaded iraq with much less evidence (based on the word of an: idiot, a terrorist, and a murderer) ...yet you didnt seem to have a problem with that ...even though it should be highly suspect based on their stated tactics

I see, so since the U.S. invaded Iraq with "much less evidence," then everybody should believe terrorists who have been trained to lie about torture and such? Ok.

 

[CptStern]

I see, so since the U.S. invaded Iraq with "much less evidence," then everybody should believe terrorists who have been trained to lie about torture and such? Ok.

dont try turning it back on me ...this is your line of reasoning not mine ...it exposes your bias. I bet you dismissed it as soon as you heard of it, and if it turns out to be true you'll probably be-grudgingly readjust your opinion to accomodate it ...or not

 

[Hapless]

dont try turning it back on me ...this is your line of reasoning not mine ...it exposes your bias. I bet you dismissed it as soon as you heard of it, and if it turns out to be true you'll probably be-grudgingly readjust your opinion to accomodate it ...or not

What if it turns out not to be true? Will you grudgingly readjust your opinion to accomodate it? Or not? Oh, but you're unbiased so you don't have an opinion. :rolling:

Wow, I was sure hoping to keep my bias a secret, but there I go exposing it. I shouldn't have made such an extreme statement as terrorists allegations should be taken with a grain of salt because their training manual has a section about making up torture and misconduct allegations for the specific purpose of discrediting their captors. I guess I need re-education. :E

 

[CptStern]

What if it turns out not to be true? Will you grudgingly readjust your opinion to accomodate it? Or not? Oh, but you're unbiased so you don't have an opinion. :rolling:

no I dont have an opinion that's why I didnt state it

Wow, I was sure hoping to keep my bias a secret, but there I go exposing it. I shouldn't have made such an extreme statement as terrorists allegations should be taken with a grain of salt because their training manual has a section about making up torture and misconduct allegations for the specific purpose of discrediting their captors. I guess I need re-education. :E

cut the crap ...you know as well as I do that many of you military types refuse to believe the abuse in iraqi prisons is systematic despite the existence of the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual and the fact that the abuse/torture follows it to the letter ...it's hypocritical at best to say that they follow the "terrorism" manual yet the US ignores it's own manual when all evidence points to the contrary

 

[Korgoth]

Ahem...


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...RIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-GUANTANAMO-KORAN-DC.XML

(hope that link works lol)

 

[MjM]

So they didn't flush it down the toilet. But there has been eight allegations of 'Koran mismanagement' confirmed. So thats code speak for doing shit to the Koran to piss of the inmates?

Hapless, you are talking about people, not necessarily terrorists. My whole point is that very few of the people taken to Cuba were guilty of anything most have been freed. So open your eyes, besides theres such a list of abuses now, that i find it hard to disbelieve allegations these days.

 

[MjM]

THIS JUST IN - I THINK - THESE ARE FROM FBI DOCUMENTS

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: [email protected]

Defense Department And CIA Are Unlawfully Withholding Photographs and Documents Concerning Torture Of Prisoners, ACLU Argues in Court Today

NEW YORK -- Documents released by the FBI state that Defense Department personnel impersonated State Department officials in interrogations at Guantánamo Bay, the American Civil Liberties Union said today.

"Defense Department interrogators, possibly on instructions from high-level officials, went to great lengths to avoid being held accountable for the use of unlawful interrogation methods," said Jameel Jaffer, a staff attorney with the ACLU. "Apparently Defense Department personnel were willing to use torture but they wanted others to be held responsible for it."

In December 2004, the FBI released documents stating that Defense Department interrogators impersonated FBI agents in order to avoid being held responsible for the use of "torture techniques." The new documents provide the first indication that Defense Department interrogators impersonated State Department officials as well.

The documents released by the ACLU today are different versions of documents that the FBI provided to the ACLU several months ago. One of the new documents which was previously redacted refers to "information concerning impersonation by DOD interrogators at Guantánamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department." The remainder of the document is almost entirely redacted. Another of the newly released documents, dated January 2004, suggests that the FBI would "finally make an arrest" in relation to the "interrogations in June 2003 when an FBI agent was impersonated."

Continued at:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0505/S00422.htm

I find it hard after reading stuff like this to find the military credible when they say they cant find 'credible evidence' of Koran(s) being flushed down toilets. Is it just me?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

As if the word of Guantanomo militant detainees is worth more than that of investigators. Sorry, no.

Besides the point that destroying a book is in no way some form of 'abuse', nor is it a valid excuse for people to riot and kill.

It's as if people say "you should have expected that to happen if you did that to that book"

If you should have expected that to happen just from a book, that society is completely batshit and insane.

 

[Hapless]

The only time desecration of a holy book is acceptable is when it's the Bible, apparently. That's what I find to be hypocritical. Many of the people on this board regularly, with malice aforethought, rip on Christianity, the Bible, Christians, whatever, and it's fine and dandy, but by God if the U.S. governement flushes a Koran down the toilet it's, dare I say, a sin.

 

[Raziaar]

The only time desecration of a holy book is acceptable is when it's the Bible, apparently. That's what I find to be hypocritical. Many of the people on this board regularly, with malice aforethought, rip on Christianity, the Bible, Christians, whatever, and it's fine and dandy, but by God if the U.S. governement flushes a Koran down the toilet it's, dare I say, a sin.

I agree. Its very hypocritical. It should be offensive, and is offensive if either religion's faith is desecrated. But, it seems to be a game for the liberals to do all the christian bashing they can bear, yet have solemn respect for the other. I just don't get it. If I, as a christian can find respect in the followers of a different religion such as Islam, why can't you? Why do you 'religion' bashers only target christianity, and only give praises when bad things happen to Christianity? Very hypocritical.

 

[gh0st]

This is impossible.

How do you flush a Koran down the toilet?

Must have been one hell of a toilet.

 

[CptStern]

it's not all that hard

 

[CptStern]

The only time desecration of a holy book is acceptable is when it's the Bible, apparently. That's what I find to be hypocritical. Many of the people on this board regularly, with malice aforethought, rip on Christianity, the Bible, Christians, whatever, and it's fine and dandy, but by God if the U.S. governement flushes a Koran down the toilet it's, dare I say, a sin.

ya cuz liberal hl2.net members often urinate on their copies of the bible .... :upstare:

 

[gh0st]

ya cuz liberal hl2.net members often urinate on their copies of the bible .... :upstare:

I KNEW it!

 

[iyfyoufhl]

cut the crap everybody, we all know that Guantanomo is the came as Consentration camps in poland, outside the law

i'm sure flushing down Koran is not the worst thing they did there

i've already experienced how local cops can do harm to people and get away with it, let me tell you Americans are not so sweet and nice, some are very crule, mean, abusive, and dumb, also they dont' know how to manage and controll the powere that was given to them,

(sorry, i just got so mad, i hate us cops)

 

[CptStern]

I KNEW it!

I seem to have misplaced my copy, can I borrow yours? ...it'll only be for a minute or so

 

[iyfyoufhl]

I seem to have misplaced my copy, can I borrow yours? ...it'll only be for a minute or so

i'll pee on you