No more minimum wage?

[hool10]

Republican Presidential candidate Michele Bachmann has soft-pedaled her opposition to the minimum wage law considerably since 2005, when she was quoted as saying, at a Minnesota State Senate hearing, “Literally, if we took away the minimum wage — if conceivably it was gone — we could potentially virtually wipe out unemployment completely because we would be able to offer jobs at whatever level.” Appearing on CBS’ "Face the Nation" on June 26, Bachmann would say only that eliminating the minimum wage is “something that obviously Congress would have to look at” as a solution to high unemployment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43608810/ns/business-us_business/
I rarely go into this sub-section but this took the cake.

 

[CptStern]

ya Michelle Bachmann is retarded so disregard whatever she says

"There are hundreds and hundreds of scientists, many of them holding Nobel Prizes, who believe in intelligent design." -Rep. Michele Bachmann, Oct. 2006

 

[Stigmata]

Wow. Wow. Unemployment is the symptom, not the problem. If anything comes of this, America will be a very, very interesting place to watch.

 

[Warped]

FMC (**** my Country)

 

[99.vikram]

She has a point though. If the minimum wage were lifted, Americans would get a lot of the jobs currently done illegally by immigrants etc. Not sure if that's a desirable outcome, ideally you'd want to reskill your workers to meet industry needs, because there is definitely a shortage of highly skilled workers in the US now. At least in software engineering.

 

[CptStern]

so a lot more people would be well below the poverty line. that'll do wonders for the economy. Bachmann is out of touch with reality and says whatever the **** her idiotic tea party supporters want to hear.

And what a bizarre time we're in, when a judge will say to little children that you can't say the pledge of allegiance­, but you must learn that homo_sexua­lity is normal and you should try it

 

[Mr Stabby]

The minimum wage is a bad policy.

If the issue is getting money to poor people, it should not be done inside the market, but left to welfare programs.

Ofcourse the best way to address unemployment is the German system, of flexible part time employment, but America won't adopt a European policy, because America is exceptional.

 

[Ennui]

Bachmann is a total lunatic, this shouldn't surprise any of you.

 

[Warped]

the gap between the richest and the poorest needs to be shortened. No one should be getting $120 million bonuses while people stand in long lines begging for food and or jobs.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Bachamnn is a talking head, who is given a set of policies by corporations. Some Good, most Bad. Bachman is the irrelvant part.

Romney is the talking head wall street wants, so he's the only one that matters.

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

Wow. Wow. Unemployment is the symptom, not the problem. If anything comes of this, America will be a very, very interesting place to watch.

Fact: drug companies already make a billion jillion dollars every year off this method.

 

[Acepilotf14]

People can barely live off minimum wage as is. This lady be crazy.

 

[Raziaar]

I worked a job at below minimum wage and let me tell you Michelle Bachmann... I would rather ****ing KILL MYSELF than be killing myself slowly doing a job for below minimum wage again where you can't ****ing do shit with the shit money you earn but slowly sink into the abyss.

 

[Bad^Hat]

"We should pay poor people less." -- a rich person

Hey check me out I'm America.

 

[hool10]

I worked a job at below minimum wage and let me tell you Michelle Bachmann... I would rather ****ing KILL MYSELF than be killing myself slowly doing a job for below minimum wage again where you can't ****ing do shit with the shit money you earn but slowly sink into the abyss.

I remember it took me 2 weeks to earn the money to buy HL2 with my first job at Jiffy Lube. I think it was 5'ish weeks for a PSP. That was living with my parents too and I didn't have to pay for gas, etc.

 

[Krynn72]

"We should pay poor people less." -- a rich person

Hey check me out I'm America.

I was going to post a correction where I was going to narrow down your joke to "I'm the top 1 % of America with 45% of the total wealth in the country!" but then I got to thinking that I'd have to also throw in "also I'm American politicians!" which them lead me to thinking that really I aught to add "also I'm the Republicans in America too!" since they think (despite many of them being poor) that poor people should be ****ed too, and at that point I figured the only people I'd be excluding from your original statement would be like 35% of America who are Democrats, and at that point I figured the joke wouldn't be worth making, so instead I created this huge run-on sentence to try and squeeze out any sort of humor that I could because god damn, thinking about this made me pretty depressed, ****ing top 1% and their cocksucking republican army.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Which pharmaceutical company paid you to ruin that joke? Be honest.

 

[Krynn72]

Prescott Pharmaceuticals

 

[Maestro]

Krynn, you look so fearsome with that picture.

She is technically correct that removing minimum wage would increase the number of available jobs. That's simple economics. What it would also do is make every single person working for minimum wage right now hate their lives even more. Not to mention much unemployment is occurring in jobs that are not minimum wage; those people would balk at taking a job that pays a measly $7.25 an hour, much less below that. There's also a mindset that goes with that which says "all problems will be solved by the unregulated market" which has been shown time and time again to be patently false.

So yeah, **** you Bachmann and your poor grasp of the complexities of human psychology.

 

[repiV]

the gap between the richest and the poorest needs to be shortened. No one should be getting $120 million bonuses while people stand in long lines begging for food and or jobs.

I don't understand. If you made hundreds of millions of dollars for your company, wouldn't you be pretty pissed off if you weren't rewarded in kind? And then go and work for a more enlightened organisation that did pay you what you were worth?

We live in an age where the value in the economy comes from talent and knowledge, not labour. Exceptional individuals are many times more valuable than average ones, and indeed, unlike in industrial times, companies need them far more than they need companies. Of course the gap between rich and poor is going to grow under such conditions. But since everyone's quality of life is dramatically higher than it was 50 years ago - rich or poor - I don't really see the issue.

 

[voodoospriest]

What on Earth do you know about talent or the economy? I would reccomend reading pretty much anything by Marx (the Karl veriety) and I would also reccomend The Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Horizons will be expanded, minds will be blown... but that isn't a particularly hard feat when the minds of this forum are concerned.

 

[Stigmata]

I don't understand. If you made hundreds of millions of dollars for your company, wouldn't you be pretty pissed off if you weren't rewarded in kind? And then go and work for a more enlightened organisation that did pay you what you were worth?

We live in an age where the value in the economy comes from talent and knowledge, not labour. Exceptional individuals are many times more valuable than average ones, and indeed, unlike in industrial times, companies need them far more than they need companies. Of course the gap between rich and poor is going to grow under such conditions. But since everyone's quality of life is dramatically higher than it was 50 years ago - rich or poor - I don't really see the issue.

We live in an age where the value in the economy comes from emotional responses to stock bubbles. Value should come from labour and production, but instead it comes from perception and marketing.

There are no exceptional individuals in business, especially not when you're trying to argue that these individuals should receive some large percentage of the net income of deals they oversee. This sort of behaviour is a step above the general happenstance of authority figures taking credit for the work done by those they oversee. Any given business deal might, at the moment of exchange, be enacted by one "special person", but when that deal could not have taken place without the help of the rest of the company, it's hard to justify such a cult of personality.

 

[Mr Stabby]

What on Earth do you know about talent or the economy? I would reccomend reading pretty much anything by Marx (the Karl veriety) and I would also reccomend The Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Horizons will be expanded, minds will be blown... but that isn't a particularly hard feat when the minds of this forum are concerned.

Sounds like it's you that needs their horizons expanded, if you think Marx has anything credible to say on economics.

Marxism can be refuted in three words; economic calculation problem.

 

[repiV]

We live in an age where the value in the economy comes from emotional responses to stock bubbles. Value should come from labour and production, but instead it comes from perception and marketing.

Labour and production is only relevant in terms of the manufacturing industry and manual labour - which, in case you hadn't noticed, we don't have much of anymore. This is "show up and put in your hours" work. Anyone can do it and it doesn't make a great deal of difference how good that person is, hence it's universally low paid work. The real difference-makers in companies are in sales, strategy, HR, R&D, etc.

There are no exceptional individuals in business, especially not when you're trying to argue that these individuals should receive some large percentage of the net income of deals they oversee. This sort of behaviour is a step above the general happenstance of authority figures taking credit for the work done by those they oversee. Any given business deal might, at the moment of exchange, be enacted by one "special person", but when that deal could not have taken place without the help of the rest of the company, it's hard to justify such a cult of personality.

Sorry, nothing you just wrote makes any sense.

Finding, attracting and retaining the right people is, by far, THE biggest challenge facing businesses today. Top people can frequently be ten times as productive as the average employee, as well as being able to attract other top people themselves. In terms of sales, it's not unusual for a company's top salesperson to earn more than the CEO.

I make my living by identifying these "A players" and convincing them to go and work for my clients instead. And if I don't do that then I don't get paid, and soon I get fired. So I think I should know a little something about it. These people make (or save) their companies millions of pounds. Most people just show up.

There is ALWAYS a job for the best people, regardless of the economic situation. Even in the midst of a recession, the people you really want to hire are usually the ones still employed. And they will frequently get paid a lot more than their average contemporaries. In my company (and line of work), you get paid based on your performance, not your job title. This should be the case in all companies, and businesses that do reward their top people and cull the low performers consistently outperform their rivals in a big way.

Last year, while the market was still ****ed, I struggled to pay the bills. At the moment, partly because the economy has recovered, and partly because I invest significant amounts of time and energy learning and improving my skills, I'm earning more than the owner of the company does. I would be pretty angry if that wasn't the case, considering that nearly half of the company's revenue this year is directly attributable to my work. If I wasn't paid a good percentage of what I bring in, then I would simply go and set up on my own instead. As it is with top performing investment bankers who will leave if they aren't paid according to their performance. Not to mention the culture of utter medicority that is created from a "pay everyone similar" model.

There is a massive upside to all this, you know. If you have a modicum of talent, and are willing to really study and learn, you will be wealthy and successful. Success is more often a question of attitude than of ability. Most people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices that are needed in order to become great. Those who are, see the rewards. And we all benefit as a result, be that as a customer of that person's company, his employeer, employee, or the guy he buys stuff from. The beauty of capitalism.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Depends the country and the sector of the economy. You can support any economic theory you want by honing in on a certian sector, but you can't really compare the German automotive industry and the American financial industry.

 

[hool10]

Words

I can safely say I absolutely hate people like you and head hunters such as yourself. Your the kind of people when you go to the front desk and give them your resume you say to me

we are not hiring what am I supposed to do with this resume?

Head hunters know jack shit about my line of work, all they care about is getting the person into the place so they can make money. They don't care if it's a shitty place to work at. I have 4 years of exp in high school learning to weld then I couldn't find a job. So like you said I went for my Associate in Welding so I could do something and improve but still couldn't find anything. Then laid off and only hired by a company because of a tip from a professor I had. Then they laid me off for a worthless child raping foremen (he seriously did that), a worthless Vietnam vet who tried to get young people fired, and a person my age but somehow could talk well enough to get trained on using a robot. Then he talks every single day to the point HR flips out on him as he complains the place sucks working at because they have no work. So why don't they re-hire me repiV even though my foreman gave me an amazing review before I was laid off? Why don't they re-hire my aunt who has been a senior banker for multiple years (now 2 years laid off) and most people are confused what happened to their favorite banker when they go to their bank? It's because of what Stigmata said. We are so heavily corrupted worldwide and people have elite ego attitudes by saying

Labour and production is only relevant in terms of the manufacturing industry and manual labour - which, in case you hadn't noticed, we don't have much of anymore. This is "show up and put in your hours" work. Anyone can do it and it doesn't make a great deal of difference how good that person is, hence it's universally low paid work. The real difference-makers in companies are in sales, strategy, HR, R&D, etc.

I'm pretty sure I can type away and put listings on monster.com and call people. I'm pretty sure you can't do my skilled trade though that takes years to get fantastic at. It's how shit gets done and without skilled trades or manual labor, we are left with get rich quick schemes. Now it's turning into a communist sweat shop worldwide though when some country can do my job very poorly by a 12 year old working for $1 a day. The job got finished and on time though and cost a fraction of a cost! That matters in the bottom line though doesn't it repiV by saving cost, etc to the client?

 

[repiV]

The principles are identical, whatever line of business you're in, and wherever you operate. People make companies. Great people make great companies. All the other challenges facing a company are automatically taken care of by hiring the right people to do the right things.

Great leaders can and do turn companies around from the brink of collapse to unrivalled levels of success. See Jack Welch at GE amongst many other examples. However, this isn't due to their own personal brilliance. It's due to their ability to hire the right people, put them in the right places, and keep them there. The vast majority of business success or failure comes simply from that. Most companies, as it happens, are pretty godawful at hiring.

Likewise, your income potential, even if you're in a technical field such as engineering, is mostly determined by your ability to deal with people, rather than any technical skills you may possess.

 

[voodoospriest]

I think the biggest difference between us must be that I am an idealist and I would love to have a more equal society even if it did mean that I had a less comfortable life than i do. I am curious as to what economic systems you think are preferable. Do you believe in a free market for instance?
I don't think that it is any coincidence that Ireland is one of the most poorly managed 'developed' countries in the world and Norway is simply put one of if not the best.

Also there is interesting research from the University of Bath dealing with group intelligence, I'll copy in the abstract below.

Dr Dick James from the Department of Physics, working with colleagues from Germany and the UK, has found that decision making among groups can be significantly better than that of individuals.

The paper detailing the research, titled ‘Swarm intelligence in humans: diversity can trump ability’, was recently published in Animal Behaviour journal and has now been selected as a Nature Research Highlight.

The team carried out the research by asking visitors to a science museum to play a marble guessing game – requiring them to estimate how many marbles were in a jar.

When the researchers made random groups out of the 2,000 plus guessers, they found that the average guess of groups with more than 40 members was better than the best quarter of individual guesses.

This, they argue, implies that large groups of average intelligence can be smarter than individual brainiacs.

The result of the research suggests that, like schooling fish or swarming bees, humans can fruitfully use collective decision-making. Groups of varying people may out-perform high-ability individuals, hinting at a selection pressure for diverse populations.

 

[repiV]

I can safely say I absolutely hate people like you and head hunters such as yourself. Your the kind of people when you go to the front desk and give them your resume you say to me Head hunters know jack shit about my line of work, all they care about is getting the person into the place so they can make money. They don't care if it's a shitty place to work at.

I don't have a front desk, and I only work for good companies. How am I supposed to persuade the best people in the industry to go and work for a shit company? It doesn't work like that. In fact it's the opposite, I recruit people out of mediocre companies into excellent ones and dramatically improve their lives and careers in the process.

I have 4 years of exp in high school learning to weld then I couldn't find a job. So like you said I went for my Associate in Welding so I could do something and improve but still couldn't find anything. Then laid off and only hired by a company because of a tip from a professor I had. Then they laid me off for a worthless child raping foremen (he seriously did that), a worthless Vietnam vet who tried to get young people fired, and a person my age but somehow could talk well enough to get trained on using a robot. Then he talks every single day to the point HR flips out on him as he complains the place sucks working at because they have no work. So why don't they re-hire me repiV even though my foreman gave me an amazing review before I was laid off? Why don't they re-hire my aunt who has been a senior banker for multiple years (now 2 years laid off) and most people are confused what happened to their favorite banker when they go to their bank? It's because of what Stigmata said. We are so heavily corrupted worldwide and people have elite ego attitudes by saying

I might care for your sad tale, if you had not for some unknown reason directed all your pent up anger and vitriol at me, whom you've never met and know nothing about. In fact I think you can go to hell TBH.

I'm pretty sure I can type away and put listings on monster.com and call people.

I don't put listings on monster.com, or any internet site for that matter. That would make me a recruitment agent, not a headhunter. The people I want to talk to generally aren't looking for work and receive my phonecall out of the blue. If you're a welder than you probably never have, and never will, deal with an actual headhunter. Unless you progress to a much more senior level.

I'm pretty sure you can't do my skilled trade though that takes years to get fantastic at. It's how shit gets done and without skilled trades or manual labor, we are left with get rich quick schemes. Now it's turning into a communist sweat shop worldwide though when some country can do my job very poorly by a 12 year old working for $1 a day. The job got finished and on time though and cost a fraction of a cost! That matters in the bottom line though doesn't it repiV by saving cost, etc to the client?

You are correct, I couldn't do your skilled trade, and the world needs skilled trades and manual labour. I'm not sure how the global commoditisation of your industry is my fault, however. Why don't you blame people who want stuff at the cheapest price?

 

[Mr Stabby]

I think the biggest difference between us must be that I am an idealist and I would love to have a more equal society even if it did mean that I had a less comfortable life than i do. I am curious as to what economic systems you think are preferable.

Do you believe in a free market for instance?

What do you think should replace the market? The market is the only system to ever solve the economic calculation problem.

I don't think that it is any coincidence that Ireland is one of the most poorly managed 'developed' countries in the world and Norway is simply put one of if not the best.

Norway has a ton of oil and the Irish are a bunch of drunks? I'm not following you.

 

[repiV]

I think the biggest difference between us must be that I am an idealist and I would love to have a more equal society even if it did mean that I had a less comfortable life than i do. I am curious as to what economic systems you think are preferable. Do you believe in a free market for instance?
I don't think that it is any coincidence that Ireland is one of the most poorly managed 'developed' countries in the world and Norway is simply put one of if not the best.

The point people seem to frequently miss about capitalism, is that it's not about people taking stuff. Whatever money is earned, is due to even greater value that has been created as a result of that transaction - which is why someone was willing to pay you for it in the first place. Ultimately, the people who gain the most from capitalism have also provided the most to everyone else, not necessarily in the social worker kind of way, but in terms of goods, services, jobs, and everything else - the real, tangible stuff that actually improves our standard of living.

$4m/year as a salary is a small price to pay for a CEO who creates hundreds of millions in terms of growth for his company - by serving his customers who are responsible for that growth - and in the process, creating better futures for his employees, creating more jobs for new employees, and wealth for his shareholders.

Likewise, I might get a £25,000 fee for a placement, but it's completely insignificant compared to the results that hire will deliver for the company, and for how the candidate's life, career and earnings potential will be improved.

All capitalism revolves around figuring out what people want and/or need, and then giving it to them. It's like when people complain about Tesco (or Walmart, or whatever) opening up in their town and killing off all the small shops. It's a pretty retarded argument because it wouldn't kill off all the small shops, if people wouldn't rather shop in Tesco!

 

[hool10]

I don't have a front desk, and I only work for good companies. How am I supposed to persuade the best people in the industry to go and work for a shit company? It doesn't work like that. In fact it's the opposite, I recruit people out of mediocre companies into excellent ones and dramatically improve their lives and careers in the process.

Funny thing is companies look great on the outside.

I might care for your sad tale, if you had not for some unknown reason directed all your pent up anger and vitriol at me, whom you've never met and know nothing about. In fact I think you can go to hell TBH.

I have dealt with 3 head hunters so far and only 1 has shown to be ok at best.

I don't put listings on monster.com, or any internet site for that matter. That would make me a recruitment agent, not a headhunter. The people I want to talk to generally aren't looking for work and receive my phonecall out of the blue. If you're a welder than you probably never have, and never will, deal with an actual headhunter. Unless you progress to a much more senior level.

Welders do deal with them but people since 2001 more so in 2008, don't leave their jobs because we are in a DEPRESSION and are afraid of losing seniority or taking risks.

You are correct, I couldn't do your skilled trade, and the world needs skilled trades and manual labour. I'm not sure how the global commoditisation of your industry is my fault, however. Why don't you blame people who want stuff at the cheapest price?

There is a massive upside to all this, you know. If you have a modicum of talent, and are willing to really study and learn, you will be wealthy and successful. Success is more often a question of attitude than of ability. Most people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices that are needed in order to become great. Those who are, see the rewards. And we all benefit as a result, be that as a customer of that person's company, his employeer, employee, or the guy he buys stuff from. The beauty of capitalism.

Yeah and Bernie Madoff knew what he was doing and reaped the rewards.

 

[voodoospriest]

Is this just blind faith on your part? There is still an economic circulation problem. Also 'the market' doesn't seem to have solved all that many problems at all.

Explain Sweden then... they have almost no oil yet are still almost as good as Norway. You should probably give a book called The Spirit Level ago...

 

[repiV]

Funny thing is companies look great on the outside.


I have dealt with 3 head hunters so far and only 1 has shown to be ok at best.

Lots of people call themselves headhunters. Most of them actually are not. Recruitment consultants advertise jobs on the internet and send a bunch of relevant CVs from the applications to their clients, and often do little else besides that. Headhunters help companies to figure out exactly the profile of the person they need to accomplish their business goals, then go and hunt down the best possible person to do that and sell them on the opportunity that exists, manage the interview and offer process and everything else. If you've dealt with idiots harvesting your CV off the internet, of which there are unfortunately many, then they were almost certainly not headhunters. The process involved is vastly different.

Welders do deal with them but people since 2001 more so in 2008, don't leave their jobs because we are in a DEPRESSION and are afraid of losing seniority or taking risks.

Yeah and Bernie Madoff knew what he was doing and reaped the rewards.

Look, your bitterness at your personal situation isn't my fault. I'm just trying to shed some light on why and how some people get paid lots more than others, bearing in mind this is something I do for a living.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Is this just blind faith on your part? There is still an economic circulation problem. Also 'the market' doesn't seem to have solved all that many problems at all.

Explain Sweden then... they have almost no oil yet are still almost as good as Norway. You should probably give a book called The Spirit Level ago...

Sweden has abudent natural resources. It also is not a marxist country and has a market economy. I'm getting the impression you have no idea what the hell you talking about. Are you a marxist or not?

The fact that you called the economic calculation problem, the 'circulation problem' tells me you don't what it is.

 

[voodoospriest]

Is this just blind faith on your part? There is still an economic circulation problem. Also 'the market' doesn't seem to have solved all that many problems at all.

Explain Sweden then... they have almost no oil yet are still almost as good as Norway. You should probably give a book called The Spirit Level a go...

 

[Raziaar]

At the moment, partly because the economy has recovered, and partly because I invest significant amounts of time and energy learning and improving my skills, I'm earning more than the owner of the company does.

You must work for some ho-dunk company then, because that's not how things typically work... and I don't really believe it.

 

[repiV]

You must work for some ho-dunk company then, because that's not how things typically work... and I don't really believe it.

It's exactly how it works in a sales business. My boss pays himself a salary. The rest of us earn 20% of whatever we invoice, in addition to a very modest salary. If I was doing the same job in the US, it would likely be on a self-employed commission-only basis with somewhat more generous percentages. People usually take a pay cut to move into management, although the income is certainly more stable.

Frankly, the job wouldn't be worth the stress and hassle if you didn't earn great money when you get good.

 

[Raziaar]

Owner... you said owner of the company. We're not talking about a supervisor here. We're talking about the owner of the company you work for, you making more than him based on your commissions. I call bullshit.

So how much you raking in a year if you're making more than the owner of the company?

I mean, if it's a decent company that can afford to pay you so much... it's gotta be a pretty good sized company. And so for you to make more than the owner, I'm guessing you're pulling in way more than 6 figures. So what are you making... 300 thousand a year? 600 thousand? Come on man, the sky's the limit if you're making more than the owner!

 

[repiV]

Owner... you said owner of the company. We're not talking about a supervisor here. We're talking about the owner of the company you work for, you making more than him based on your commissions. I call bullshit.

My company has five people in it. My boss is the owner of the company.

So how much you raking in a year if you're making more than the owner of the company?

Hard to say, as always it's ups and downs. Assuming I do the same the second half of the year as I have in the first, then it should be about £75,000. Last year I earned sod all, however.

I mean, if it's a decent company that can afford to pay you so much... it's gotta be a pretty good sized company. And so for you to make more than the owner, I'm guessing you're pulling in way more than 6 figures. So what are you making... 300 thousand a year? 600 thousand? Come on man, the sky's the limit if you're making more than the owner!

Commission is self-financing in a recruiting business. Give someone a phone, a desk, a computer and a few tools and the revenue is entirely generated by their work. There are very few overheads. If anything, larger companies tend to be worse payers because they attract people based on the brand name, and have all sorts of fancy gizmos whereas we pay for little beyond broadband, telephone bills and a few other little things. The company makes money from me and I get a percentage of the money I make for them.

I could do exactly the same job working for myself with minimal upfront investment. It's a great business model. I don't want to however, because frankly I don't want the hassle of it.