nVidia: D3 or ATi: HL2?

[jOOblaR]

i been thinking much of, which card for graphics to i get?

nVidia for Doom3 or ATi for Half Life 2
(keep in the mind also i wish to play both games at good looking levels i.e. High Res., High settings, or is this not possible with both?)



also what is PCi-E and when is it coming out? when shall i purchase my video card? i either:

1. Purchase a 6800Ultra/GT or X800Xt/Pro and play Doom3/Half Life 2
OR
2. wait for PCI-E cards (which are supposed to be faster) and then get my video card and upgrade my MoBo to PCi-E compatible.

if i was to purchase a 6800Ultra/GT or X800XT/Pro now, wouldnt i have to upgrade to a PCI-E graphics card and PCI-E compatible motherboard when it comes out anyway?

Cheers,
jOOblaR

 

[Sparta]

Ati cards outperform Nvidia's card on everything but OpenGl games. Get an X800 Platinum Edition and that should run everything perfect. If you have the money that is

 

[Razor]

Both the 6800Ultra and x800xt are pretty much level in everything, apart from Doom3. No matter which one you use, you will be very satisfied with it. The 6800Gt, in my eyes, is better then a x800pro, it is faster and most cards can be overclocked to Ultra speeds or faster very easily.

Also, Pci Express isn't really worth the wait at the moment if you are ready with money in hand. They won't be faster than the current cards, it will just be the current cards on the Pci Express format rather than the agp format. It would only be worth the wait if you want to get a dual pci-e 16x board and 2 cards to run in sli.

 

[YamatoTwinkie]

Nvidia seems to have the upper hand for Doom3 performance. . .
http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQy
However, valve hasn't release any benchmarks (that I know of) regarding the latest generation of cards

 

[redundant]

wait until doom 3 has been released and ati actually has a chance to upgrade its drivers. i guarantee within a month they would have released new drivers that will run doom 3 MUCH better.

after all, the 6800's were essentially designed with doom 3 in mind.

 

[Azrael.]

If you saw the reply that Team Radeon posted on their website...

By the time Doom 3 comes out the new drivers should have been released, or will be released shortly. ATI should be back up on top, for the exception of Doom3 with the 6800U since it was a card basically made specifically for Doom3. If I were you I would go with an X800 XT, and wait for the new drivers. But I prefer ATI over Nvidia so...

 

[Dr. Freeman]

i think what it really comes down to is.. what game ur looking forward to more..
if u are HL2 fan.. and more anxiously await this game.. then go with the Ati card.

if however, u are more interested in Doom3.. then get the Nvidia card.. really when u think of it.. u can't go wrong with those choices.
it all comes down to which game u are a bigger fan of.. IMHO.

as for PCI-Express my advice on that would be to wait 1 full year.. let the technology mature first.. and then worry about PCI-Express and motherboards and video cards of that ilk.

anyway good luck with whatever u decide. :thumbs:

 

[YamatoTwinkie]

well, "wait for our new drivers!!!" was exactly what Nvidia said when Valve first released their benchmarks for the previous generation of cards(and Nvidia got creamed). Its hard to decipher whether "wait for our new drivers!!!" is just PR, "improved drivers" means they are going to tweak it by reducing image quality, or they are actually telling the truth.

 

[Perret]

Hmm I think with both cards you will play both games really fine ... but, I would prefer the X800 (lol i've the X800 XT for PCI-Express) and yes, i works damn fine in all my games ... and minus 10 frames in doom3 isn't the world ...

 

[iamaelephant]

I would personally go with the x800. It still plays Doom 3 at very acceptable framerates on max details, 4xAA and 8xAF, and they say that their 4.8 cats will improve the speed even more.

 

[Kschreck]

Actually it's the Geforce 6800 Ultra that tears up the ATI cards. Don't believe me? Check the latest benchmarks on some of the latest games. Far Cry, Doom 3, ETC!!! Not only are the Nvidia cards faster, but they also have features that the ATI cards can't shake a stick at such as Pixel Shader 3.0 technology. I've done a lot of research and yes the Nvidia cards are much better. In case you don't believe me, Google it.


Also, don't buy a graphics card because of the free game with it. The newest Nvidia and ATI cards will both play Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 on the best graphics good. Just go with Nvidia.

 

[urseus]

Yeah just go with invidia.

Always i was told that, then when you get their cards people say man this is super smooth on my ATI, this looks so good on my ATI.

Nvidia can kiss my ass. Never again. Good old 9800pro.

 

[Syphoon!!]

Kschreck's right, the 6800 tears up the ATi cards. And what's this nonsense about "the 6800 was built for Doom 3!"? It was not. Other way around. Doom 3 has specialized NVidia codepaths that make use of its optimizations, and none for ATi's cards (possibly as punishment for the ATi employee leaking the Doom 3 alpha). Techwise things like Pixelshader 3.0 and 32-bit floating point shaders (all of ATi's stuff is still 24-bit) mean that driver upgrades will give the NVidia cards a lot more potential. Look at how things like the Farcry patch that make use of it up performance. The 6800's are much more advanced than the X800s, and I'm expecting the DX9 performance gap to be much less than the previous generation.

 

[Sparta]

ATi are better for overclocking as well (In my opinion) Not to mention the Omega Drivers are awesome.
Also the PS 3.0 feature that the 6800 has is pretty much useless as of right now. The only game that uses SM 3.0 is Far Cry and other then that there is no difference between PS 2.0 and PS 3.0, except for an increase in speed. I'd expect ATI's next card to have PS3.0, as by then, chances are more games will be using SM3.0 anyway

Basically it's like this

ATI X800: Better Image Quality, Runs awesome on HL2 and quite good on Doom 3
Vs.
Nvidia: Faster framerates, Worse Image quality, Runs awesome on Doom 3 (Don't know about HL2 though), Need's an extra power supply

There's no real advantage one card has over the other. As of right now ATi's OpengGl code is crap, but if the new OpenGL code is really as good as people say it is (Supposedly there's a big increase in framerate) then everything's even.

 

[jOOblaR]

Basically it's like this

ATI X800: Better Image Quality, Runs awesome on HL2 and quite good on Doom 3
Vs.
Nvidia: Faster framerates, Worse Image quality, Runs awesome on Doom 3 (Don't know about HL2 though), Need's an extra power supply

w00t! this is the kinda shite i am looking for, easy simple and easily to determine which card is rightm for you, instead of all that jargon like Pixel Shaders 3.0 with Catalyst 4.2 blah blah blah.

thanks guys, all your suggestions have been heaps helpful
but when Doom3 is realeased and ATi release their new drivers, will the ATi perform as good as the nVidia cards?

 

[crownest]

i been thinking much of, which card for graphics to i get?

nVidia for Doom3 or ATi for Half Life 2
(keep in the mind also i wish to play both games at good looking levels i.e. High Res., High settings, or is this not possible with both?)



also what is PCi-E and when is it coming out? when shall i purchase my video card? i either:

1. Purchase a 6800Ultra/GT or X800Xt/Pro and play Doom3/Half Life 2
OR
2. wait for PCI-E cards (which are supposed to be faster) and then get my video card and upgrade my MoBo to PCi-E compatible.

if i was to purchase a 6800Ultra/GT or X800XT/Pro now, wouldnt i have to upgrade to a PCI-E graphics card and PCI-E compatible motherboard when it comes out anyway?

Cheers,
jOOblaR

PCI-E doesnt make a difference compared to AGP, says the dev of D3. So getting an AGP card is still better.

If you wanna play HL2 and D3 with good performace, a 6800 Ultra and X800 XT both run equally well.

 

[Razor]

Basically it's like this

ATI X800: Better Image Quality, Runs awesome on HL2 and quite good on Doom 3
Vs.
Nvidia: Faster framerates, Worse Image quality, Runs awesome on Doom 3 (Don't know about HL2 though), Need's an extra power supply

There's no real advantage one card has over the other. As of right now ATi's OpengGl code is crap, but if the new OpenGL code is really as good as people say it is (Supposedly there's a big increase in framerate) then everything's even.

You do not need an extra power supply and there is no difference in image quality at all between the x800 and 6800, where did you get the information there was? Infact, i would of thought that the 6800 would have ever so slightly better image quality due to the filtering optimizations that Ati use and that can't be turned off.

 

[jOOblaR]

oh so basically 6800 is better than x800 according to the above post

 

[DyNaMiX]

oh so basically 6800 is better than x800 according to the above post

More trying to argue they are quite equal.
I'm personally having a hard time deciding whether to upgrade my 9800 Pro to a GeForce 6800 Ultra or the Radeon X800 XT. It's not like the old days were the difference was obvious.

 

[Dynasty]

just go for ati all the time. the new 6800ultra is good, but the x800xt still blows it away. it is sickeningly, offensively fast, and must give off so much heat. what puzzles me is how the x800xt only got around 50fps on doom3 benchmark...hmm, must be wrong

 

[Mr Neutron]

The non-performance criteria, I think, go in Ati's favor: I didnt' want another source of heat and noise (though I understand the 6800's aren't nearly so bad as the original FX's). Everyone seems to agree the image quality is even with subtle advantages going either way. I based my decision on the original comparison on HardOCP. Their reviews show you the FPS charted over time, so you can see all the times the framerate goes unacceptable, not just the averages. The x800xt pulled ahead on the faster processors: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjMyLDE=

Remember for each chart to notice what resolution and AA/AF settings is used (the different cards might not all be the same res: there are many instances where the 800xt gives the same performance at 1600 that the 6800u gives at 1280.

Other reviews I've seen pretty consistently show the 6800GT to either run dead even with the x800pro in a particular game or pull slightly ahead. So the GT might be preferable to the x800pro. The reverse case is true for the x800xt and 6800u. Except of course with doom3. I'd wait for HardOP to graph the fps over time--and any new drivers--before reaching for nvidia just on that count. I think people are getting a little over anxious about the PCI-e numbers (6800u@72fps vs. x800xt@51fps). I don't understand why the 6800u gets such a huge boost from pci-e while the x800xt gets so little (the agp's are: 6800@61fps vs. x800xt@49fps [and 6800gt@56fps]); it seems like a fluke to me. Anyway, remember not to confuse the pci-e situation vs. the agp one.

Here's another review with even better results for the x800xt (I wonder though if the drivers here from May make this out of date): http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjMyLDE=

As for pixel shade 3.0. How many times has one card upped a competitor on a feature and then had that feature significantly used within two years? All I can think of is the original Geforce vs. the voodoo5, and the Geforce's victory had nothing to do with that feature (HW T&L) but with its generally far superior performance. Radeon 9700 users waited two years before PS2.0 coming into use, and now they're itching to upgrade. The mistake Nvidia made with the FX generation is in bloating their chips with unused precision and features (PS 2.0 "plus": will any game ever support this? No. They'll support ATI-baseline 2.0 and Nvidia-baseline 3.0).

So my prediction for PS3.0 is, 'If you think you'll be playing an Unreal Engine 3.0 game on the card you buy today, the 6800 series is the way to go.' My guess is that that will be 2+ years from now. Sure you'll have some ps3.0 stuff sooner, but nothing significant as developers are still figuring out what to do with 1.1 (look at doom3), let alone 2.0.

In fact, that's probably part of the reason for the 6800's doom3 advantage there (general opengl advantage aside): doom3 relies mostly on a Geforce1-conceived rendering scheme (though of course, a geforce with greater fill-rate) augmented with the pixel shaders of geforce 3 (hence the minimum spec) with only a few dx9 bells and whistles thrown on top . It's not so much that Nvidia optimized their cards for Doom3 as Carmack designed Doom3 for the Geforce series (not "optimized": I'm sure Carmack's honest--or at least lazy).

TEH END

 

[DyNaMiX]

just go for ati all the time. the new 6800ultra is good, but the x800xt still blows it away. it is sickeningly, offensively fast, and must give off so much heat. what puzzles me is how the x800xt only got around 50fps on doom3 benchmark...hmm, must be wrong

Nope nothing wrong with them. The GeForce 6800 GT is already appearing to be on par with the Radeon X800 Pro or slighty infront. The bonus in Doom 3 is that it's created on OpenGL. nVidia has always gone well with OpenGL games. John Carmack also prefers OpenGL hence why the GeForce has a bonus. However, don't spend all that money on a card for one game. Sure the 6800 might be beating Radeons, but have a look at the frames that are being shown during testing and the detail levels. VERY playable. :smoking:

 

[riTuaL]

Asus, I see your packin a GF 6800GT, I thought you were an ATI enthusiast

 

[Alig]

just go for ati all the time. the new 6800ultra is good, but the x800xt still blows it away. it is sickeningly, offensively fast, and must give off so much heat. what puzzles me is how the x800xt only got around 50fps on doom3 benchmark...hmm, must be wrong

Talking about heat, my sapphire X800pro gets to 70c not overclocked with 7 case fans.

The 6800ultra and XT are even, if you wanna argue over a few fps more then argue. The 6800GT and pro are not even the 6800GT is by far superior in technology than the X800pro.

If you are buying a top line card as of now id go with the nvidia after my experience with ati. They have buggy drivers. The same image quality, even worse in some cases. They get hot on stock speeds. Mine has locked up totally several times meaning a hard reboot. Ive had pixel problems in games. It cost me more than a 6800GT.

There is no upside to the ATIs that the nvidia's dont do already except it has old features, it will not have a very long life span in terms of features because it has none. So the ati get a flimsy few more fps in directX games but at 60 fps and 65 fps i dont really see the problem but at 21 fps in doom3 i do see a ****ing problem and i do ****ing hate ATI now.

 

[palindrome]

Wait for ati's drivers to see the performance increase in ogl. If they don't improve much, i would go wih nvidia. There are a few huge games coming out on D3 engine so it wouldn't be just for 1 game.

 

[Asus]

All of these cards will give you excelent frame rate in all of the current and up coming games in the near future.
When they were released ATI's top card had a slight consistant lead over the 6800U in the majority of games. 1

A few solid leads in important D3D games. Both popular games and games that took advantage of shader technology that we could get an idea for future games. Nvidia had an edge in games like Quake and CoD.
Nvidia has released drivers that improve performance but we are near ATI's release of their new drivers. Yes, this is a X800XT PE vs a 6800U OCed water cooled card with ATI's new drivers

ATI won in Farcry with the 1.1 patch. Now ATI wins again with the 1.2 patch. 1
What was tested before was only Nvidia's new PS3.0 vs the old PS2.0 paths. ATI has enabled the Shader 2.0b features for this review.
They finally got it translated to english. ha

I have a 6800GT because that was the only card on the shelf at Compusa. I took a chance with the 16 pipelines. The 6800GT is a very apealing card at this price point but for the top end the ATI card wins hands down...Unless you are playing D3 only. No one in their right mind should buy an Ultra.
So do you want excelent performance in all games for 400$ then choose between the X800pro and 6800GT (D3). If you want the very top performance in the majority of games (Mostly D3D games like HL2!) for 500$ then pickup a X800XT PE.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Well judging the hardocp review with my specs (athlon xp 2700+, 1 Gig PC2700 mem, asus a7n8x deluxe mobo)it shouldn't matter if I upgrade my 9700 pro to a x800 pro or 6800 GT.
Sorry for going a bit off topic, but what would you guys do in my situation, upgrade the gpu or the cpu? thanks...

 

[Cyber$nake]

From what I've heard and researched its like this:

6800 GT>>X800 pro
6800 ultra<x800 xt

So really it depends which your getting, the TOP of the list or the second top. And you also have to consider which you'l be playing more- Hl2 or D3?

Quick Question: i know the 6800 ultra takes up extra space, but does the GT as well?

 

[Mr Neutron]

Well judging the hardocp review with my specs (athlon xp 2700+, 1 Gig PC2700 mem, asus a7n8x deluxe mobo)it shouldn't matter if I upgrade my 9700 pro to a x800 pro or 6800 GT.
Sorry for going a bit off topic, but what would you guys do in my situation, upgrade the gpu or the cpu? thanks...

Well, to get a vid card significantly better you'd have to spend a lot: 400-500 for the Gt/pro/ultra/xt of your choice [and you'd have to wait about a month to get it--at least for the xt]. Now, to get a cpu significatnly better, you'd have to spend a lot: starting at ~$300 for an Athlon 64 3400 plus the ~70 for the mb (and your PC2700 ram would have to run at a slower FSB, so you might want new PC3200 ram too); it gets even worse if you want a real jump, like a 64 3800 or a 64 FX53, for ~$800 for just the cpu (not to mention more expensive mb's). oy.

Seems pretty clear to me. Even the really expensive cards will get you more price/performance. In a year, the 64 3500 will get down to ~100-150. You may have noticed that the high-end cards haven't been dropping in price like they have in the past. The 9800pro was $400 May before last, now it's $200. Whereas GPU price's fall %50 annually at best, CPU prices (as long as there's enough newer chips to push the old one's down) can fall as much as %75. IF you time things right. For instance. Buyers who got their 9700pro at the beginning got a great deal because their nearly 2&1/2 year-old cards aren't that much slower than the 9800pro's (as long as you don't push on the AA and AF).

 

[bosox188]

Well I'm guessing when Xmas comes around The X800 pro's price won't be cheap enough for me to get, I'm sure my parents wouldn't spend anything over the $200 range. I just got a new motherboard, and I'm now saving for RAM and a power supply, so the card's gonna be for xmas. So really I'm probably gonna have a more limited option, 9800 pro or 6800 non gt. I guess the 6800 would be the better choice. I know I definitely won't be able to get an ultra or xt, but by xmas we'll have the 4.8's as well as the new games, including D3 and HL2, so I got plenty of time. But for now a 6800 is definitely the better choice over a 9800 pro right?

 

[Asus]

Well judging the hardocp review with my specs (athlon xp 2700+, 1 Gig PC2700 mem, asus a7n8x deluxe mobo)it shouldn't matter if I upgrade my 9700 pro to a x800 pro or 6800 GT.
Sorry for going a bit off topic, but what would you guys do in my situation, upgrade the gpu or the cpu? thanks...

If 1024x768 or 1280x1024 with a little AA/AF on the side is enough for you then I wouldn't upgrade.
If you want to play at higher resolution, AA/AF and you can sell your parts for enough to cover part of the cost then you could upgrade to a X800/6800 card or A64 2800+ CPU.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Well, to get a vid card significantly better you'd have to spend a lot: 400-500 for the Gt/pro/ultra/xt of your choice [and you'd have to wait about a month to get it--at least for the xt]. Now, to get a cpu significatnly better, you'd have to spend a lot: starting at ~$300 for an Athlon 64 3400 plus the ~70 for the mb (and your PC2700 ram would have to run at a slower FSB, so you might want new PC3200 ram too); it gets even worse if you want a real jump, like a 64 3800 or a 64 FX53, for ~$800 for just the cpu (not to mention more expensive mb's). oy.

Seems pretty clear to me. Even the really expensive cards will get you more price/performance. In a year, the 64 3500 will get down to ~100-150. You may have noticed that the high-end cards haven't been dropping in price like they have in the past. The 9800pro was $400 May before last, now it's $200. Whereas GPU price's fall %50 annually at best, CPU prices (as long as there's enough newer chips to push the old one's down) can fall as much as %75. IF you time things right. For instance. Buyers who got their 9700pro at the beginning got a great deal because their nearly 2&1/2 year-old cards aren't that much slower than the 9800pro's (as long as you don't push on the AA and AF).

Thanks a lot for the help :cheers:

I think I'll upgrade the GPU first and try to upgrade the CPU at the best time, maybe a XP 2500-M (easy to OC to 3200, costs only 125 euro) or wait a bit longer and go for new mobo and the AMD64. Oh, and I mistyped my RAM, I already have 1 gig PC3200 (ddr400)

If 1024x768 or 1280x1024 with a little AA/AF on the side is enough for you then I wouldn't upgrade.

I know, you're probably right but I've basically got the green light from my wife to spend the money on a 6800GT or x800pro (i know I'm a loser) and I can't wait to see all those delicious graphics!!

thanks for the help m8

 

[Asus]

I know, you're probably right but I've basically got the green light from my wife to spend the money on a 6800GT or x800pro (i know I'm a loser) and I can't wait to see all those delicious graphics!!

thanks for the help m8

Then what are you waiting for!

 

[Nick1814]

I just ordered a 6800 GT about 30 min ago so yeah! i hope its worth it. I love seein how everywhere i went there all sold out. amazing. this is a little off topic, but does anybody know how to check to see if your cpu has HT? i built this thing about 6 months ago, but my brother gave me the cpu. I know its 3.06 but thats it.

 

[Asus]

The 3.06 533FSB P4 should have HT.

 

[what!?]

The 6800 GT has the full 16 pipelines while the X800 Pro only has 12. The GT wins.

 

[jOOblaR]

Nope nothing wrong with them. The GeForce 6800 GT is already appearing to be on par with the Radeon X800 Pro or slighty infront. The bonus in Doom 3 is that it's created on OpenGL. nVidia has always gone well with OpenGL games. John Carmack also prefers OpenGL hence why the GeForce has a bonus. However, don't spend all that money on a card for one game. Sure the 6800 might be beating Radeons, but have a look at the frames that are being shown during testing and the detail levels. VERY playable. :smoking:

woot! this dude has convinced me that ATi is the card to get, like he said, dont spend all that money on just one game when ATi performs better with most games when nVidia is trailing behind, except on OpenGL games where it is leading, and there arent many of them anyway..

no no dont stop, keep the topic going i need more convincing lol

 

[crabcakes66]

It actaully suprises me how fast the x800pro is considering its 12-pipe design.

If all you care about is doom3 and the games that will come out on that engine(quite a few most likley) Id say you cant beat a 6800GT. In general the 6800GT seems to be the overall bang for buck sweet spot of the new generation of cards. If i were buying NOW...that is what i would go for.

The radeons are still ahead in D3D and do AA-AF better.

I personaly am going to see what happens with a supposed X800GT(16 pipe x800 non-XT). I imagine it will out perform the 6800GT in both D3D and OGL(after ATI gets there drivers up to par) as a modded x800pro with 16 pipes beats a 6800GT by a decent margin.


SM 3.0 is not something i would let affect my decision as its not exactly a groudbreaking feature. Its just something people in the nvidia camp like to toot there horn about more than anything.


So in Short X800XT-PE>6800Ultra>X800XT>6800GT>X800Pro>6800

 

[Asus]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the X800GT turns out to be a better pick for D3D games than the 6800U.

 

[JosserkX]

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/farcry-12.html

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjM3

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/farcry20b.html

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2102

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2113

Here with these links, you can see that the Nvidia cards, even with sm2.0b implemented still out-perform the x800 in farcry. The 6800gt is better than the x800 pro HANDS DOWN. Even when you overclock it , it can sustain speeds and outperform the x800xt. They have yet to try overclocking the 6800ultra but have already tried overclocking the x800 pro, and it cannot overclock nearly as much or stay as stable as the 6800gt. The 6800gt and ultra also run cooler than the x800 core . The main reason why Doom3 runs better on the nvidia's cards is because of ultrshadow 2. This addition to the card makes it easier and faster to render paths that invlove heavy shadow. In english, the more shadows a game has, the more the nvidia will outperform the x800. As for HF2, we are seriously going to have to wait. But at the moment, the Nvidia cards lead the Ati cards and therfor, are the better buy.