Paris Burning

[Jandor]

Rioting youths opened fire on police and set dozens of vehicles ablaze in a seventh night of violence in Paris.

In escalating unrest, shots were fired at police and firefighters, while gangs besieged a police station, set fire to a car showroom and threw petrol bombs.

At least 15 people were arrested and nine injured across north-east Paris.

France's government is facing mounting criticism of its handling of the riots, triggered by the deaths last week of two teenagers of African origin.

Bouna Traore, aged 15 and Zyed Benna, 17, were electrocuted at an electricity sub-station. Local people say they were fleeing police during a disturbance, a claim the authorities deny.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy met with the boys' families on Thursday, as a criminal investigation and an internal police inquiry into their deaths were opened.

Map of riot areas

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin and Mr Sarkozy cancelled overseas trips to hold a crisis meeting in the face of the growing dissatisfaction with the government's failure to quell the violence.

Both men are likely rivals for the presidency in 2007, and their different approaches to the rioting has split the cabinet.

Mr Sarkozy has caused controversy by labelling the rioters as "scum" and saying many of the suburbs need "industrial cleaning", but Mr de Villepin has preached a more conciliatory message, urging ministers not to "stigmatise" vast areas.

Running clashes

Wednesday night's violence erupted in 10 areas across the Paris department of Seine-Saint-Denis, home to poor, largely immigrant communities with high levels of unemployment.


Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy in Clichy-sous-Bois

Deaths that set off unrest
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Locals officials said rioters set fire to 177 vehicles across the region. In the flashpoint town of Aulnay-sous-Bois, youths set fire to a car showroom and damaged two primary schools, a post office and a shopping centre

Two live rounds were fired in the town of La Corneueve, and fire fighters in Saint-Denis and Noisy-le-Sec were also shot at, a senior local official said.

There was violence in another northern area, Le Blanc Mesnil, where a French TV truck was overturned and burned. In the western Hauts-de-Seine department, a police station was bombarded with petrol bombs, the AFP news agency reported.

The situation also remained tense in Clichy-sous-Bois, where the teenagers died, and where the rioting first broke out.

In recent days there have also been incidents involving groups of youths in other departments near Paris, including the Val-d'Oise, Seine-et-Marne and Yvelines.

Alienation

Police said they made more than a dozen arrests overnight.

Francois Masanet, secretary general of the French police union, described the situation as "dramatic", and warned that the violence could escalate.

Burned car in Clichy-sous-Bois
Many youths in the suburbs feel alienated from French society

French politicians are facing up to the reality that many of the mainly immigrant populations in cities have long been in a state of chronic tension, says the BBC's European Affairs correspondent William Horsley.

Immigrants and their offspring make up 10% of France's population, but many are without French citizenship and the right to vote. They also suffer the highest rate of unemployment, and their relations with the police are generally difficult or hostile, our correspondent says.

Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Paris mosque and the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, said living conditions for Muslim immigrants in the suburbs were unacceptable.

They "must be given the conditions to live with dignity as human beings", not in "disgraceful squats".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

 

[Gunner]

It's not exactly inside Paris, it's like a 45-60 minute train ride to get there.

 

[Icarusintel]

riots are cool... anyone know how to say riot in French?

 

[Gunner]

émeute

 

[The Monkey]

The result of segregation.

 

[Ennui]

If this was happening in America, I promise you at least three people would say "Only in America..."

 

[Icarusintel]

émeute

thank you, you learn something new every day

 

[ríomhaire]

What set this off?

 

[lister]

What set this off?

Bouna Traore, aged 15 and Zyed Benna, 17, were electrocuted at an electricity sub-station. Local people say they were fleeing police during a disturbance, a claim the authorities deny

 

[Gunner]

It's nonsense really, those savages burn cars every year anyway, they're always looking for an excuse to stir shit up.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Bouna Traore, aged 15 and Zyed Benna, 17, were electrocuted at an electricity sub-station. Local people say they were fleeing police during a disturbance, a claim the authorities deny

Wait so either way it was their fault?

At least it would even make sense if it was like some sort of beating or brutality. Sounds like they were messing around or running from police and got themselves killed.

 

[SAJ]

It's nonsense really, those savages burn cars every year anyway, they're always looking for an excuse to stir shit up.

What variety of savages would that be exactly, hmm?
You mean those pesky dark-skinned ones or is your bigotry the lesser-spotted anti "cheese-eating surrender monkies" type ?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

What variety of savages would that be exactly, hmm?
You mean those pesky dark-skinned ones or is your bigotry the lesser-spotted anti "cheese-eating surrender monkies" type ?

I think he was referring to the "riot, shoot at firefighters, and burn down buildings/cars" type.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Yeah, he isn't talking about their color of skin.

 

[SAJ]

Yeah, he isn't talking about their color of skin

I dont where you get your information from, but I doubt its accurate.
Given that he is talking about rioters of african origin, the use of the words "those savages", suggests a somewhat more colonial state of mind.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I dont where you get your information from, but I doubt its accurate.
Given that he is talking about rioters of african origin, the use of the words "those savages", suggests a somewhat more colonial state of mind.

So because most of the rioters are a certain race, if you call them out for something not related to race at all it involves it somehow? Race has nothing to do with it here. I don't care at all what color,h eritage, country or whatever they are even- the rioters are savages who have been committing mob violence for 8 days.

 

[The Mullinator]

I dont where you get your information from, but I doubt its accurate.
Given that he is talking about rioters of african origin, the use of the words "those savages", suggests a somewhat more colonial state of mind.

This is something I have learned to take to heart as it really will help you in arguments:
http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/core_critical_thinking/lessons/lesson3/3_2_charity.htm

In other words assume he didn't mean it as a racial slur.

If you intend to criticize an argument advanced by another arguer, it is much better to criticize it in its strongest form

 

[SAJ]

So because most of the rioters are a certain race, if you call them out for something not related to race at all it involves it somehow?

Not at all. I have no problems with people being critical of rioters, just the use of "those savages" to describe them in this context.

Race has nothing to do with it here.

Well, I beg to differ,it is a race riot after all.

Mullinator:Thanks ,but I wasnt assuming that it was a racial slur, bear in mind I included the option of being anti-french( oh so popular these days).
Unless gunner and deus ex are the same person , I cant for the life of me , see how he would know for a fact that it wasnt racial language.

 

[Icarusintel]

Is it the Jews again? *end blatant racism*

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Not at all. I have no problems with people being critical of rioters, just the use of "those savages" to describe them in this context.

Rioting is a savage act, and in this case, they are being savages.

 

[CptStern]

oh come on ..what about the riots in watts or LA? racial tension and social injustice fueled those riots ....while there were certainly a criminal element at work many people were venting their anger at the establishment and as such is a political act ...not that I agree with the methodolgy but rioting has led to many a coup or change in the state's policy

 

[SAJ]

Rioting is a savage act, and in this case, they are being savages.

You know , youre feigned ignorance wears a little thin after a while.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

You know , youre feigned ignorance wears a little thin after a while.

Um, I'm not trying to sound more intelligent or anything there, I'm just stating that anyone who is rioting is being a savage. Can't really argue with that.

oh come on ..what about the riots in watts or LA? racial tension and social injustice fueled those riots ....while there were certainly a criminal element at work many people were venting their anger at the establishment and as such is a political act ...not that I agree with the methodolgy but rioting has led to many a coup or change in the state's policy

Protest and riot are very different. Unless you're thinking of something different or a broader term for rioting- but for me, rioting is the looting/stealing of property. Senseless destruction and violence against innocent bystanders, and just a general 'going crazy' with 0 regard to OTHER'S rights.

They could make a case (well.. in this situation not really since I don't know the history/other underlying points, and it appears they're rioting over something that two people caused to happen to themselves) through means that respect other people's rights and go a lot farther, instead of shooting at firefighters and police.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Not at all. I have no problems with people being critical of rioters, just the use of "those savages" to describe them in this context.

Well, I beg to differ,it is a race riot after all.

Mullinator:Thanks ,but I wasnt assuming that it was a racial slur, bear in mind I included the option of being anti-french( oh so popular these days).
Unless gunner and deus ex are the same person , I cant for the life of me , see how he would know for a fact that it wasnt racial language.

I was stating that he wasn't making a racial slur as you're so readily to incline. He was simply saying the rioters are savages. Savages riot. Rioters are savages.

There's no "in-between the lines" crap here. Let it go.

 

[Milkman]

oh come on ..what about the riots in watts or LA? racial tension and social injustice fueled those riots ....while there were certainly a criminal element at work many people were venting their anger at the establishment and as such is a political act ...not that I agree with the methodolgy but rioting has led to many a coup or change in the state's policy

So, two punks electrocute themselves after attempting to escape cops(supposidly), and this justifies the public venting their anger of the establishment by shooting at unarmed firemen, burning private citizen's cars, and attacking buses?

 

[CptStern]

man read the freakin story ..that's just one incident in a pattern of unrest

 

[CptStern]

Protest and riot are very different. Unless you're thinking of something different or a broader term for rioting- but for me, rioting is the looting/stealing of property.

that's looting

Senseless destruction and violence against innocent bystanders, and just a general 'going crazy' with 0 regard to OTHER'S rights.

that's anarchy

They could make a case (well.. in this situation not really since I don't know the history/other underlying points, and it appears they're rioting over something that two people caused to happen to themselves) through means that respect other people's rights and go a lot farther, instead of shooting at firefighters and police.

while the electrocution was the catalyst there's resentment over a multitude of issues

here read this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...y/LAC/20051103/EFRANCE03/TPComment/Editorials

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

that's looting



that's anarchy

Well then the people doing those things are what I'm sure he's referring to as savages. It's obvious we don't mean people who aren't. Just trying to make that clear because SAJ pulled the race card when it wasn't about that at all.

while the electrocution was the catalyst there's resentment over a multitude of issues

here read this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...y/LAC/20051103/EFRANCE03/TPComment/Editorials

At least some are going about it the proper way. The people doing the things mentioned above though need to be stopped asap- they're just taking advantage of a situation to commit criminal acts.

 

[Gunner]

Saj I live in Paris, I've been ganged up on, beat the shit out of, robbed, mugged, and cut once by these ****ers. They're the french equivalent of chavs. Oh by the way I'm French/Iranian.

 

[Last One In]

that's looting



that's anarchy

Ritoing is both of these combined.

 

[bliink]

A similar event was the catalyst for riots in australia a little while ago.

Some kid crashes his bike and impales himself on a fence while running from police, and riots start.. police were almost utterly overwhelemed, went on for days, fire brigade got attacked by molotov wielding crowds.

The underlying cause was essentially racial & economic divide as well.

Alarmingly similar.

 

[Jintor]

Redfern Riots...

 

[Last One In]

so how bad are things in france? any french folks here?

 

[Raziaar]

Wait?

Back up one second...


France has PROBLEMS? You would of never thought.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

So I read an article that's stated incidents have spread to 300 towns now across France (not full scale in all 300 but things going on in at least that many, with the full brunt of it in the Paris suburb/slowly moving into the city limits of Paris)

 

[DrDevin]

So I read an article that's stated incidents have spread to 300 towns now across France (not full scale in all 300 but things going on in at least that many, with the full brunt of it in the Paris suburb/slowly moving into the city limits of Paris)

Yep

Speaking in a television interview, he called the violence "unacceptable" and outlined measures to curb the unrest that has hit 300 towns and cities.

He ruled out army intervention for the moment, but said an extra 1,500 police officers are to be deployed.

Tributes have been paid to the first victim of the violence.

Hundreds of people gathered in the Paris suburb of Stains to remember Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, 61, who died from his injuries after falling into a coma from an attack last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414684.stm

I saw it on the news tonight. Another death and more violence.

 

[The Mullinator]

If it has spread this far I don't think an extra 1500 police will be able to gain control of the situation. I won't be at all surprised if military support ends up being called in.

 

[DrDevin]

If it has spread this far I don't think an extra 1500 police will be able to gain control of the situation. I won't be at all surprised if military support ends up being called in.

Well you shouldent be because I remember them saying that the military is being brought in or at least it is definately an option.

A police union official has proposed establishing a curfew and bringing in the military to help handle the rioting, while some members of the opposition Socialist Party have suggested the police should withdraw from the communities to quell the unrest.

Yes it has been suggested but not carried out yet.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/04/france.riots/?section=cnn_topstories

 

[Last One In]

This is exciting!

 

[Glo-Boy]

Is it the Jews again? *end blatant racism*

[SARCASM][/SARCASM]

There is no such thing as a Jewish race. I hate it when Jews go around talking about how it actually is a race. That's not true and they're all wrong.

Not to say all other religions don't have shortcomings, but that one sure pisses me off.