Patriotism

[Korgoth]

The bash your own country thread got me thinking...

Can anyone actually describe patriotism to me in a way that isn't stupid? Why are we "patriots" or "comrades". Why must we be nationalists? What is the purpose.

All patriotism does is draw dividing lines between the people of this Earth. We are not country men, we are "planet" men. We all live on this rock. Why must we compete with one another like daily life is sport?

The human race when fed patriotism/nationalism is exactly that, a race. We all want to be first to the top and we will kill anyone in our way. What is the f***ing point? What do we gain from this?

Pride in country is stupid. Blind faith in country is stupid. People willing to give there live for "country" are stupid. I'm sorry but its the cold harsh truth. You only get one life, and i'll be damned if I'd give it up so suzy f'ing soccer mom can drive her gas guzzling SUV to her sewing circle. War should only be fought to prevent seperation of ourselves into nationalism. The very idea of following blindly under the veil of patriotism is sickening. As I said your only dividing, you aren't uniting.

Where will we go as a species this way? Give me one good reason to be patriotic.

 

[CptStern]

the sooner we see ourselves as citizens of the world and not citizens of a particular piece of land defined on a piece of paper, the sooner we'll be able to fix all the identity and racial barriers that are the product of nationalism. Patriotism and patriotism alone is what fuels the war in iraq.

 

[Korgoth]

I've come to the same conclusion. So why exactly then, do the masses eat this sh*t up?

 

[Pogrom]

The bash your own country thread got me thinking...

Can anyone actually describe patriotism to me in a way that isn't stupid? Why are we "patriots" or "comrades". Why must we be nationalists? What is the purpose.

All patriotism does is draw dividing lines between the people of this Earth. We are not country men, we are "planet" men. We all live on this rock. Why must we compete with one another like daily life is sport?

The human race when fed patriotism/nationalism is exactly that, a race. We all want to be first to the top and we will kill anyone in our way. What is the f***ing point? What do we gain from this?

Pride in country is stupid. Blind faith in country is stupid. People willing to give there live for "country" are stupid. I'm sorry but its the cold harsh truth. You only get one life, and i'll be damned if I'd give it up so suzy f'ing soccer mom can drive her gas guzzling SUV to her sewing circle. War should only be fought to prevent seperation of ourselves into nationalism. The very idea of following blindly under the veil of patriotism is sickening. As I said your only dividing, you aren't uniting.

Where will we go as a species this way? Give me one good reason to be patriotic.

Although I broadly agree with you, I have to say this is a tad extreme.

If it is alright to have pride in yourself, why not pride in your country? Pride doesn't necessarily have to be competing or exclusionary.

That said, many countries' citizens could do with a little less pride and a little more understanding. And I'm not singling any single country out here, all are guilty.

Except maybe some tiny unremarkable island country... Like Fiji...

 

[The Monkey]

We have not been patriots in Sweden for quite some time... we don't celebrate our national day very much and half of our population don't know our national anthem, at least not whole of it.

 

[CptStern]

I've come to the same conclusion. So why exactly then, do the masses eat this sh*t up?

cuz some people need to belong to something ..individualism is frowned upon ..."be part of society or be ostracized from society"

 

[Recoil]

Well... there are different types of patriotism, I'd say. On the one hand, there are those fanatics, that stand behind everything the country does and claim that everyone not agreeing is a terrorist. On the other hand, there are people that just say where they're from if asked.

A "Where you from?"
B "France."
A "Uogh! F**ckin' frog eating f*g! You and your country are disgusting!"
B "I wouldn't say that, it's a very beautiful country, I like/love it! What you're saying is wrong."

The pal named B here is somehow a patriot, by just defending it (or more likely, it's people!) -> and what he's doing there is right, in my opinion. Most people don't think about what they're saying; if someone 'insults' a whole country, he insults millions of people he never has met in his life.

 

[Wraith]

its time to create a government that is truly by the people, with the advent of the internet, the world is getting smaller, we dont need to funnel out power into a government like this.

www.lp.org/issues

 

[Korgoth]

Well defending your neighbors is one thing... Recoil in response to you, i'd say that (A) would be the patriot in that case, because he is dissing another country trying to make his look better in comparison, methinks.

 

[Pogrom]

Well defending your neighbors is one thing... Recoil in response to you, i'd say that (A) would be the patriot in that case, because he is dissing another country trying to make his look better in comparison, methinks.

I reckon you are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Maybe the meaning of patriotism has changed with the years, but it used to mean love of one's country.

Nationalism is the belief in the superiority of one's country. See the subtle difference?

 

[Korgoth]

Yes but the subtlety has blurred as of late, at least in my opinion.

 

[Recoil]

i'd say that (A) would be the patriot in that case

Yes, one of the first kind.

 

[Pogrom]

It is a shame that patriotism is the cloak that bigots hide behind ;(

'Tis sad to see the passing of a good thing.

Now I just turn to Oscar Wilde:

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

the sooner we see ourselves as citizens of the world and not citizens of a particular piece of land defined on a piece of paper, the sooner we'll be able to fix all the identity and racial barriers that are the product of nationalism. Patriotism and patriotism alone is what fuels the war in iraq.

Iraw aside, its not about that...

Citizens of the UK still divide themselves. For isntance, I'm from the north and I make fun of those in the south In the north, I make fun of people from...oh, Liverpool perhaps. People in my town...come to think of it, I don't know anyone in my town anymore, but you get the point.

Human beings naturally like to be a part of the group and at the same time have some sort of common goal or "enemy" for that group to unite against. Now unfortunately this often manifests in violence, when it needn't do. For instance, we can be patriotic during the Olympic games, where atheletes from all over the globe come together to compete. I love it when my country wins, but then when they lose I just think "Meh, its all good".

So what I'm basically trying to say is...Patriotism isnt a bad thing, but the violent manifestation of it is.
There is nothing wrong with having recognisable differences between people, because ultimately we are all different from each other anyway.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

My thoughts on the matter of patriotism are very simple...



I think its perfectly fine to love you're country. Why the hell not anyway... I sure do...

What I absolutely hate is when people think that being patriotic entales thinking you're country is better than everyone elses...


I love Britain, but I don't think its the best place to live in the world... I just love Britain... Its that simple.
I am patriotic... but I am not too stupid to understand that others are are more than entitled to love their countries too....



I hope this post makes sence.... I am in a hurry..

 

[Letters]

My thoughts on the matter of patriotism are very simple...



I think its perfectly fine to love you're country. Why the hell not anyway... I sure do...

What I absolutely hate is when people think that being patriotic entales thinking you're country is better than everyone elses...


I love Britain, but I don't think its the best place to live in the world... I just love Britain... Its that simple.
I am patriotic... but I am not too stupid to understand that others are are more than entitled to love their countries too....



I hope this post makes sence.... I am in a hurry..

Perfect sense... That's how I sees it too...

 

[RRunner]

I dont know, i love no country above any1 else. I find it difficult to love a country, dont get me wrong, i´ve got fav places, like the city of Krakow on a summers day, Nyhavn in Copenhagen drinking beer at the habour, Kiruna in winter, Munchen at any time in a beerhalle, Amsterdam by night, öster vrå in mid may.

I think the word patriotism and nationalism, are words invented to creat control of the "little man", making him lay down his life to protect the (well i have no other word for it) the fat man and his cigar. I do consider my self to be a "little man", im not rich and proberbly never will be, do smoke a cigar from time 2 time.

I had hoped back in the 80. that the internet would break down the borders, but all hopes not lost, we can still make it :cheers:

Peter Singer wrote a good book containing various views on this, its a good read m8´s its called -Practical Ethichs-

 

[Majestic XII]

We have not been patriots in Sweden for quite some time... we don't celebrate our national day very much and half of our population don't know our national anthem, at least not whole of it.

Its hard to show your love for your country IRL so to speak... you always risk to be beaten up... but on the internet... oh boy. Just look at all the Swedish threads. It shows we're very proud of our country and want everyone else to be too

Anyways, I like my country, but its not something i walk around talking about all the time. Most people like their homeland.

 

[Neutrino]

I do agree with much of what you said, Innervision. I think it is important for people to start looking at ourselves as citizens of this planet, not just citizens of one country. Everyone on this earth is equally important and I think an ideal of the future would be to start blurring national lines and creating a world of people rather than many nations of people. Though I sometimes doubt that it will ever come about as it seems to be a psychological necessity of humans to seperate into smaller groups than the whole. This can be seen in many things and it seems like countries might be just an extension of that group mentality.

That said, there are some points I strongly disagree with. I do not think one should love their country just for the sake of loving their country, but I do think someone has every right to love what their country stands for and the ideals of democracy. I do not think people give their lives for a country so much as they give their lives for the ideas which that country stands for, which I think is far from stupid. I'm very grateful for every single individual who died fighting for the ideals of freedom and equality for the people.

So basically I'm saying that pride in a country just because it is your country might not always make a lot of sense, but pride in an idea is a whole other thing. I personally have pride in the idea that all people are equal and all have the rights to the same freedoms. For all it's faults America still tries to uphold that to a large extend and for that reason I have pride in it. But the idea itself is far more important than any country in my opinion. If American stopped trying to live up to that idea then I would stop having any pride in it or respect for it. So I agree, countries aren't really worth fighting for, but ideas can be.

 

[Sprafa]

Patriotism is your conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

 

[Hapless]

The problem with the, "We're all one world," view is that while it may be great for everybody in one country to think that way, what happens when everybody in the next country over thinks, "That's a bunch of crap, we're not all one world, those people over there are Muslim (or Jewish, or Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Wiccan, ad nauseum.) If they don't come around to our way of thinking, we're going to march right in and take their country from them." This belief, like communism and other -isms, doesn't take into account human nature. Humans are naturally competitve, we naturally discriminate.
It may feel good to think that we can rise above our instincts, but history has shown again and again that it is near impossible.
Let's say your country is free and democratic, and there is no corruption, everybody has a job and everything is peachy keen. There is no military budget, only free healthcare and education for all. Everyone in your country loves everyone else in the world. Your countries coffers are stuffed, even after giving away money to other less fortunate countries. Then your neighbor, which is, say, a totalitarian theocracy, decides they want to come on in and get some of that because they are dirt poor. While they are getting some of that, they decide that you fellas need to adhere to their religion. Then they decide that you are a bunch of wimps who won't even defend themselves, and therefore must be second class citizens. Then your country is no longer your country, but theirs. It's happened before. Would you be willing to defend your country in that case?

 

[RRunner]

I will not kill a man for his belives, nor his money etc.

But i would kill a man for doing harm (harm being in its exstrem form lol) to me or my family, without a seconds hesitation.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Patriotism is your conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born in it.

no, that's narcism.

 

[Sprafa]

no, that's narcism.

narcism

1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.
4. The attribute of the human psyche charactized by admiration of oneself but within normal limits.

patriotism

Love of and devotion to one's country.

nationalism



1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

he, just joking

I was only referring to the part "because you were born in it"

so my country is great because I was born in it. That's pretty narcistic.

 

[we11er]

The fact is, humans are a social creature, which means we tend to associate strongly with our 'own' social group, whether that be a group of friends, or a country as a whole. This can't easily happen with people feeling part of the entire globe because of the strong separation between countries - I have never really experienced the society/culture of america, or any other country (I'm in the UK) - so how can I be expected to 'feel' I'm part of this global community? And yes, I use the word 'feel' because that's what it is, a natural feeling of being part of a group.

Or something.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Patriosm to me, is two elements:

The First Element of Patriosm is the expressal of Freedome's and the expressed respect of the law. This is generally the Patriosm I use, or view as constructive to a democracy. Where people share an ideal, and admire what its for, and, respect it.

Freedomes include everyone and every country. But, here's what I find so odd:

Some people come to the states and are afraid to have an opinion. Not living here or not, coming here and breathing our air I say, gives you the right to your own speech.

Talk is what I say... I had this poor guy from Sweden come down, and he was afraid to express his liking about Drugs. He was a very smart guy, but he was so worried that if he said something, a million Bush supporters would clammer around and badger him.

I told him to speak, and that the fear to have an opinion is the fear of your own rights.

That applies anywhere.

The second view of Patriosm, is a metaphorical term, relating that any Country, Citizen, or Army, can practise or upholds the methods of its country in high reguard.

Patriosm, Nationalism, Socialism, they're all political elements, and all can find a state within a personal belief.

The Chinese PLA have Patriosm, in that they reguard their country as either Heroic, or deserving of admiration. Nationalism, is assorting people to admire a National right, or National rule beset to a people(s).

Patriosm, is basically the love of ones country. Patriosm, was a word long before the United States.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Was patrioism really a word before US...Or in fact, at all?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

It was. Patriosm was a word first used by the Greeks, then adopted by Mongols as some wierd term. (Wait...which came first? I totally forgot!) ...

Both of course, were different pronounciations, but both evolved into the words of Patriosm, Marxism. (Well, the term Marx, comes from Karl Marx, but the Mongols adopted a system like Marx well before him. Ironically, Marx did'nt get the idea from Mongols. ) Twisted history.

Patriosm then later invoked itself into the social/political realm of the Carthage empire, and the Roman empire.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

...Oh yea, "Patriosm" was also expressed by Adolf Hitler.

But not in a sense that degraded or mentioned America. It was during one of his speeches in 1937.

 

[Ghost Freeman]

I've come to the same conclusion. So why exactly then, do the masses eat this sh*t up?

Because its the "in" style right now. It comes in all sizes, goes well with all colors, and suits all lifestyles. You'll sell your soul to live a patriot and realize you have become a conformist.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

in short I: I agree with topic starter...

take away patriotism and religious fanatism and tell me how many wars would have been prevented...