Physics in a game discussion.

[lans]

I was wondering that nowadays game's have stopped focusing on physics as the novelty factor and making them part of the actual gameplay, I'll give you some prime examples of this:

Novelty:

Max payne 2: (havok 2 engine) Rag-doll death
Painkiller: (havok 2) rag-doll death
Far cry: (in-house)....however some places you needed the physics.
Doom 3 (in-house) rag-doll death

Actual Gameplay:

Psi-ops: Mind powers, very good implementation of physics.
Half-life 2: Manipulate objects.
Deux ex 2: use boxes for cover/stealth.

--------------------------------------------------------

Please add to the list, and correct me if I'm wrong

Just a year ago, physics in a game where for fun and to do rag-doll deaths. Nowadays, games are actually making it part of the gameplay. I want your say on this and what you think is the game with the highest potential - and the future of video games with physics.

At the momment, many people say that psi-ops has the best physics in a game, and I personally couldn't stop myself from playing the demo for hours. I must say that it pretty much has all the tricks up it's sleeve like half-life 2. However not everything is manipulate-able.

 

[neil7]

I would like to point out the physics in need for speed underground are non-existant! the cars fly about like there made of paper!
they bounce like rubber balls. and when cars collide with you they send you airbourne. one of the most annoying aspects of this game!

 

[lans]

One of the most impressive in-house physics engine in a car sim I've seen have to be project gotham racing 2. I'm pretty much looking forward to Forza motorsport (same developer- GT4 killer), because PGR2 actually has the best car physics IMO.The steering coincides with real-life counterpart very much. The car's bonnet crumples to a good extent, accurate damage at places, it's just like one of those microsoft XNA demos.

 

[neil7]

I think gran turismo has the best physics engine in car games. It would be better if the ai of the computer drivers was better and the cars got danaged!

just think of the mangled mess of the shiny cars!

and you had to pay for the repairs!

 

[Eywanadi]

Doom 3 physics will be used interactively, I remember reading that in an interview. The question is how creative will they use it? I have high hopes and expectations from ID because over the past several years (post Quake) many talented people have joined the ranks of ID and I trust that there creativity will not dissopoint.

Not all objects in a Doom 3 level will be affected by physics, this is done to boost preformance. However it will be possible to build Doom 3 levels where all objects are affected by physics ... so all is good.

I am not sure how realistic the Doom 3 physics are ... It is IDs in-house physics engine and it is built for speed not realism. Havoc on the other hand is built for realism not speed ... we will have to wait and see if the trade-offs work out in IDs favor.

 

[friedcook]

Every doesn't realize Nascar 4/ 2003 Season uses the Havok phsyics engine. It has the best racing physics around!

 

[blahblahblah]

I am not sure how realistic the Doom 3 physics are ... It is IDs in-house physics engine and it is built for speed not realism. Havoc on the other hand is built for realism not speed ... we will have to wait and see if the trade-offs work out in IDs favor.

How sure are you about that? I remember reading that ID's physics engine is capable of using its physics engine to fracture glass in realtime.

A physics engine is a physics engine is a physics engine. It all depends on how you use it for gameplay. This is still the beginning of using physics in a game. I expect it will be another generation of games (after doom 3 and HL2) before we will start to see physics fully integrated into gameplay.

 

[Eywanadi]

How sure are you about that? I remember reading that ID's physics engine is capable of using its physics engine to fracture glass in realtime.

A physics engine is a physics engine is a physics engine. It all depends on how you use it for gameplay. This is still the beginning of using physics in a game. I expect it will be another generation of games (after doom 3 and HL2) before we will start to see physics fully integrated into gameplay.

Haha IMO no Doom 3 can not fracture glass in real time! I think people who saw glass fracture at E3-2003 and Quakecon2003 were over estimating the realism of it. I expect it will be just a 2d image of broken glass that is drawn overtop of the glass at the spot of impact (because doom3 has per pixel hit detection) and if you shoot the glass several times it will fall apart in the same way glass currently does in games ... I could be wrong but Carmack has a very specific attitude towards engine desing, 'if it is not vastly usefull do not use it' ... realistic shattering glass is basicly pointless as it does not add to gameplay and would have to be a resorce hog.

 

[lans]

Haha IMO no Doom 3 can not fracture glass in real time! I think people who saw glass fracture at E3-2003 and Quakecon2003 were over estimating the realism of it. I expect it will be just a 2d image of broken glass that is drawn overtop of the glass at the spot of impact (because doom3 has per pixel hit detection) and if you shoot the glass several times it will fall apart in the same way glass currently does in games ... I could be wrong but Carmack has a very specific attitude towards engine desing, 'if it is not vastly usefull do not use it' ... realistic shattering glass is basicly pointless as it does not add to gameplay and would have to be a resorce hog.

I'm sure doom 3 has realtime glass fracture. Even Todd mentioned it in some IGN preview. He also said that you will be able to shoot for example some boxes at one point and they will be physically stimulated and would topple realistically. However, in most cases you won't. The physics engine in doom is used more importantly for ragdoll deaths than for messing around - so while they did allow glass to shatter realistically they have made somethings not physcially stimulated on the other hand. Therefore I believe doom3 belongs in the novelty category.

As far as nascar 2003 physics is concerned, you guys have to see PGR2 - it's basically GT4 coated in chocolate suace with sprinkles on top. Umm, whatever meaning you take of that.

 

[Crushenator 500]

<snip>

i think that the first game that used ragdolls was ut2k3, so you might want to add that.

that, and trespasser :thumbs:

 

[lans]

i think that the first game that used ragdolls was ut2k3, so you might want to add that.

that, and trespasser :thumbs:

I'm very sure the first game to use ragdoll deaths was Hitman: codename 47. I haven't included it though since I'm basing my view on games in the last 6-7 months.

Trespasser had a strong physics engine - but you definately can't compare it to games in this age. It seems only like barrel moving and shaking compared to these.

 

[Alig]

One of the most impressive in-house physics engine in a car sim I've seen have to be project gotham racing 2. I'm pretty much looking forward to Forza motorsport (same developer- GT4 killer), because PGR2 actually has the best car physics IMO.The steering coincides with real-life counterpart very much. The car's bonnet crumples to a good extent, accurate damage at places, it's just like one of those microsoft XNA demos.

It may be one of the most impressive but it doesnt out do gran turismo 1 car physics nevermind gran turismo 3. GT is renowned for realistic car physics...its undeniably the best racing game ever made no matter how much of a fan you are off other racing games.

The ammount of time that goes into making GT games is painfull...i could'nt do it as much as i love cars i could'nt spend weeks and weeks just recording the sounds from 600 cars from idling RPM to max rpm. The cars in GT are ultra realistic everyone knows they are...every car in GT games (best seen in GT3 because of graphics) is replicated down to the smallist tinyest decal on it. I really cant wait for GT4 with its new engine...its going to rock the racing genre like never before.

This Forza motorsport will need to be one hell of a racing game to take the crown from gran turismo in one try...fair enough gran turismo does'nt have car damage not because they dont want it (it add's alot to realism) but because they have to many different brands of car companys in gran turismo and if just one car company does'nt want to see their cars getting trashed in a video game then that means No Go for car damage accross the board.

Gran Turismo 4 will pwn all racing games imo. It has the name. It has the music. It has the cars. It has the realism. It has the graphics. It has a new engine. It has Sony behind it, partly. It has modifications to no end. Trust me, no game will take what has taken 6 years to achieve in one go, in one game.

 

[lans]

It may be one of the most impressive but it doesnt out do gran turismo 1 car physics nevermind gran turismo 3. GT is renowned for realistic car physics...its undeniably the best racing game ever made no matter how much of a fan you are off other racing games.

The ammount of time that goes into making GT games is painfull...i could'nt do it as much as i love cars i could'nt spend weeks and weeks just recording the sounds from 600 cars from idling RPM to max rpm. The cars in GT are ultra realistic everyone knows they are...every car in GT games (best seen in GT3 because of graphics) is replicated down to the smallist tinyest decal on it. I really cant wait for GT4 with its new engine...its going to rock the racing genre like never before.

This Forza motorsport will need to be one hell of a racing game to take the crown from gran turismo in one try...fair enough gran turismo does'nt have car damage not because they dont want it (it add's alot to realism) but because they have to many different brands of car companys in gran turismo and if just one car company does'nt want to see their cars getting trashed in a video game then that means No Go for car damage accross the board.

Gran Turismo 4 will pwn all racing games imo. It has the name. It has the music. It has the cars. It has the realism. It has the graphics. It has a new engine. It has Sony behind it, partly. It has modifications to no end. Trust me, no game will take what has taken 6 years to achieve in one go, in one game.

Car handling, indeed.

GT has the most realistic car handling and no one can disagree. Then again it's not your arcade racer - it's a car simulation. Forza is aiming for the same, and the project gotham series proves that the developers might be able to do so. We'll have to wait and watch though, I'm a big GT fan as well as PGR fan so only time will tell.

 

[Rico]

Back to the topic of physics in games...

I think soldner did a decent job of making it so physics and the physical environment affected gameplay. For example you could knock down a tree (only worthy physics object I think) and use it to cross a small river, you could knock them down into buildings to destroy the structure and you could also use them to block paths for most vehicles (and make them fall on top to destroy them). The actual game is not that good but I thought these things were pretty cool. I'm hoping HL2 will make a similar use of physics in the environment to provide greater interactivity and more "wow! that was awesome" moments.

 

[Eywanadi]

I'm sure doom 3 has realtime glass fracture. Even Todd mentioned it in some IGN preview. He also said that you will be able to shoot for example some boxes at one point and they will be physically stimulated and would topple realistically. However, in most cases you won't. The physics engine in doom is used more importantly for ragdoll deaths than for messing around - so while they did allow glass to shatter realistically

No, I read all the Doom3 interviews VERY carefully when I had heard about real time glass fracture, do not get your hopes up it is not in there. But yes Carmack (not Todd) did talk about how they stacked hundreds of boxes in a room and then shot one out from the bottom and they all fell realisticly. I never said Doom 3 could not do complex physics I said such physics would not be wasted on glass.

Next up ragdoll deaths is seperate code from physics code. The physics code was in there and Carmack had shot down the idea of adding ragdoll physics but Jan Paul van Waveren added it any way and Carmack said he made a bad call and decided to keep the ragdoll effects. (PC Gamer Dec 2002)

they have made somethings not physcially stimulated on the other hand. Therefore I believe doom3 belongs in the novelty category.

The only things that are not effected by physics are objects the mappers belive will never NEED physics. Every object in a Doom 3 level can have physics it's up to the mapper. So your viewpoint is mistaken and Doom 3 does not belong in the novelty category for physics.

Doom 3 has the potential to have completly interactive physics that enhance gameplay now we just have to see how they use it. If they mess it up then you can call it novelty but yet you can't.

 

[Frank]

Hahaha, do you guys remember how you should pick things up in Trespasser? MAN THAT WAS HORRIBLE! Her arm was like a ten foot pole, and you couldn't use it for shit! Her arm was just as practical as this:
http://www.silja.com/english/images/prost.jpg

 

[Rico]

That hat looks pretty practical... you could dust, clean and feather all with the same tool!

Plus it attracts the ladies :O

 

[DarkStar]

I can't wait to throw stuff around in Psi-Ops. It's like the manipulator in HL2..........BUT WITH YOUR MIND!

 

[Kylebn]

I was wondering that nowadays game's have stopped focusing on physics as the novelty factor and making them part of the actual gameplay, I'll give you some prime examples of this:

Novelty:

Max payne 2: (havok 2 engine) Rag-doll death
Painkiller: (havok 2) rag-doll death
Far cry: (in-house)....however some places you needed the physics.
Doom 3 (in-house) rag-doll death

Actual Gameplay:

Psi-ops: Mind powers, very good implementation of physics.
Half-life 2: Manipulate objects.
Deux ex 2: use boxes for cover/stealth.

I REMEMBER VALVE STATING THAT AFTER HL2 IS RELEASED THAT THEY WILL BRING PATCHS (UPDATES) TO THE GAME ENGINE, LIKE THE LATEST RAGDOLLS, PIXEL 3 & VERTIX 3 SHADERS, AIR/FLUID ENGINE, AND VARIOUS OTHER ENHANCEMENTS

:burp:

 

[brink's]

Perhaps the most impressive game that features real time physics is a little game called STALKER. Everything I've seen from it tells me that you will have to rely on phyics to survive more then you will in any other game.

 

[ShinRa]

thanks brinks but we've pretty much established stalker isnt impressive in any sense and if they manage to deliver all that they promised and do it well, then maybe we have a hit but as of now wtf have u seen the latest videos id rather play half life during its beta stages.

 

[Eywanadi]

I can't wait to throw stuff around in Psi-Ops. It's like the manipulator in HL2..........BUT WITH YOUR MIND!

Sounds like the force from Jedi Knight 2

 

[brink's]

thanks brinks but we've pretty much established stalker isnt impressive in any sense and if they manage to deliver all that they promised and do it well, then maybe we have a hit but as of now wtf have u seen the latest videos id rather play half life during its beta stages.

Dude I would rather play HL2 then any game comin out, but that still doesn't change the fact that stalker will be ground breaking.
Isn't impresive?? What have you been smoking.

 

[Rico]

I didn't think Stalker was impressive either. I'm sure the SP will be quite nice but from what I've seen the multiplayer is almost below average (saw some gameplay videos) and the physics are nothing we haven't seen already.

I'm sure the game will be nice though, I don't keep myselfu pdated on stalker because it's so far away from release plus I was never really interested in it in the first place. Maybe later.

 

[neil7]

Well I reckon its about time games devolpers start pushing the limits of the pc. what with £150+ cards in pc's I think they are are not getting the potential out of them yet. I have high hopes for half-life 2 and doom3 though.

 

[lans]

I REMEMBER VALVE STATING THAT AFTER HL2 IS RELEASED THAT THEY WILL BRING PATCHS (UPDATES) TO THE GAME ENGINE, LIKE THE LATEST RAGDOLLS, PIXEL 3 & VERTIX 3 SHADERS, AIR/FLUID ENGINE, AND VARIOUS OTHER ENHANCEMENTS

:burp:

YOU KNOW IT'S ANNOYING TO SPEAK IN CAPS!

I'm talking about the version of the game that goes in stores - not updates. Hell, every game would be on that list that has been updated with the same features.

Meh, Stalker seems unintresting and too realistic...in a bad way.

the monster jumped around weirdly and environments looked empty, weapon models IMO are too detailed - they kinda look weird to tell the truth. I didn't see any video that showed physics as part of the gameplay- anyone willing to show me this?

 

[ACLeroK212]

Hahaha, do you guys remember how you should pick things up in Trespasser? MAN THAT WAS HORRIBLE! Her arm was like a ten foot pole, and you couldn't use it for shit! Her arm was just as practical as this:
http://www.silja.com/english/images/prost.jpg

and how about trying to aim a gun with that damn arm?!

I can not, for the life of me, think of one enjoyable experience to recall on from that game. Well, except for maybe looking down and checking out your health meter........... :naughty:

oh man, just plain horrible

 

[Alig]

thanks brinks but we've pretty much established stalker isnt impressive in any sense and if they manage to deliver all that they promised and do it well, then maybe we have a hit but as of now wtf have u seen the latest videos id rather play half life during its beta stages.

I havent got a clue what game you think Stalker is but it isnt the same game everyone else knows (bar Rico, he always disagree's).

Have you seen the latest HL2 video's...they are nothing special...infact the physics in HL2 look pretty shit after watching the guy fly for 100ft through the air from a grenade. I have'nt seen anything nearly as lame as that in stalker but HL2 will still be good

 

[ACLeroK212]

I havent got a clue what game you think Stalker is but it isnt the same game everyone else knows (bar Rico, he always disagree's).

Have you seen the latest HL2 video's...they are nothing special...infact the physics in HL2 look pretty shit after watching the guy fly for 100ft through the air from a grenade. I have'nt seen anything nearly as lame as that in stalker but HL2 will still be good

that video's over a year old now and i'm guessing that was exagerated to show the rag doll physics of the soldier landing on the car in front of you.

 

[Alig]

that video's over a year old now and i'm guessing that was exagerated to show the rag doll physics of the soldier landing on the car in front of you.

Im talking about the E3 2004 15 minute video released about 1 month ago though.

Edit/ The gun used actually was a rocket launcher i believe...on a beach...sea side if you want.

 

[crabcakes66]

thanks brinks but we've pretty much established stalker isnt impressive in any sense and if they manage to deliver all that they promised and do it well, then maybe we have a hit but as of now wtf have u seen the latest videos id rather play half life during its beta stages.

what the hell are you talking about.....most of the people on these forums seem to be atleast somewhat interested in stalker.

 

[lans]

what the hell are you talking about.....most of the people on these forums seem to be atleast somewhat interested in stalker.

Umm...this topic isn't on stalker, so let's not talk about it. Though I see guinny's point - I mean wtf are monsters doing in russia? who the hell do we play as, and why is the environment so empty?

Bet let's stick to the topic.

Stalker physics: assumed to be good, though I have not seen any proof of that as of yet. Someone please tell me which vid to watch?

 

[Alig]

Umm...this topic isn't on stalker, so let's not talk about it. Though I see guinny's point - I mean wtf are monsters doing in russia? who the hell do we play as, and why is the environment so empty?

Bet let's stick to the topic.

Stalker physics: assumed to be good, though I have not seen any proof of that as of yet. Someone please tell me which vid to watch?

No way man.

LoL...."Stalker : Shadows of Chernobyl" ..."Chernobyl" is an abandoned nuclear power plant abandoned in Russia, thus, the empty atmosphere...no kids on their bikes around here man.

Its some sort of myth that nuclear waste turns shit into green monsters... i dont know, havent you seen The Toxic Avenger, oh shit!

Here. http://www.toxicavenger.com/ I cant believe how good the effects on films was back then when this film was showing on Sky movies the other week

 

[Go Go Codgo]

Meh, Stalker seems unintresting and too realistic...in a bad way.

the monster jumped around weirdly and environments looked empty, weapon models IMO are too detailed - they kinda look weird to tell the truth. I didn't see any video that showed physics as part of the gameplay- anyone willing to show me this?

I think the weapon models looked stupid and unrealistic in stalker and the monster/mutant things did move really weird and the animations looked a little shitty. I think it could be ok but weak in some areas, I think the physics in Stalker are like Far crys, there but not really needed ever unlike HL2.

 

[torso boy]

I was wondering that nowadays game's have stopped focusing on physics as the novelty factor and making them part of the actual gameplay, I'll give you some prime examples of this:

Novelty:

Max payne 2: (havok 2 engine) Rag-doll death
Painkiller: (havok 2) rag-doll death
Far cry: (in-house)....however some places you needed the physics.
Doom 3 (in-house) rag-doll death

Actual Gameplay:

Psi-ops: Mind powers, very good implementation of physics.
Half-life 2: Manipulate objects.
Deux ex 2: use boxes for cover/stealth.

well all that you mentioned are right, but you forgot to say that Psi ops, HL2, and Deus ex 2 use havok.

The discussion about stalker: in my opinion every time i see more of stalker in motion, i think its less and less impressive.

And i think croteam should get fair mention with their physics engine for serious sam 2 (in house) because they have (supposedly) Done the same thing they did with SS1 in character counts (100+ characters on screen) with physics so they can have the same crazy amount of enemies, and all of them ragdolling at the same time. supposedly it is 1000 times faster, but i think that's an exaggeration.....but then again nobody thought 100 enemies at once was possible