Physics?

[Mr.SqueeZ]

i know about the Physics in the hl2, but will you be able to shot trough walls and objects. kinda like the geo-mod tecnologi used in red faction?
exsample: make alternate escape routes whit a schatel charge or the rocket luncher? :afro:

 

[Frank]

No

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Mr.SqueeZ
i know about the Physics in the hl2, but will you be able to shot trough walls and objects. kinda like the geo-mod tecnologi used in red faction?
exsample: make alternate escape routes whit a schatel charge or the rocket luncher? :afro:

no.

BTW, that really has nothing to do with physics.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Yes, but ONLY in specific places. You will not be able to blow up every wall and building, it has to be scripted.

 

[lambda^2]

Frank and xtasy, excuse me, who said that? When you say "no." then please give a short reference or qoute from where you have that info.
Every object with a wood texture on it can break, so it is possible (this has been asked in an email to Gabe) to build a level that can be completely destroyed. And when they can make all wood objects destroyable, they can also make all concrete or different object (remember, its just another texture, technically) destroyable. I could imagine that you would for example be able to "rocket launch" your way through a building, and it definitely is possible in a mod (if it isn't already implemented somewhere in single player).
How was that one again - it's a design question, not a technical limitation.
I don't believe they for example scripted the explosion of the walls when the striders invade c17, I think it's more likely that they disable the "breaking-ability" on some walls, so you can't take shortcuts that would ruin the game.

 

[koopa]

You're talking about different things. Objects are one thing ; stick a correct material on it and I'm sure it'll break. Level geometry is another matter - knocking through walls and other static stuff is unlikely to work.

 

[Guest]

it's a design question, not a technical limitation.

Its a design decision, not a technical limitation.

Such a statement really has little value anymore. With the engines that are being used now, there is very little if anyhting that they are technically incapable of. Even real time dynamic lighting/shadowing, bumpmapping, and physics have been implimented in the quake2 engine.

I don't believe they for example scripted the explosion of the walls when the striders invade c17, I think it's more likely that they disable the "breaking-ability" on some walls, so you can't take shortcuts that would ruin the game.

Structures will only be breakable in places that the game designers meant for you to break them. The walkway that the strider blew away was put there and made breakable just so that the strider could blow it to shit.

 

[Ro@cH]

Originally posted by Mr.SqueeZ
i know about the Physics in the hl2, but will you be able to shot trough walls and objects. kinda like the geo-mod tecnologi used in red faction?
exsample: make alternate escape routes whit a schatel charge or the rocket luncher? :afro:

People who say 'no' to this question are in fact right. There isn't anything like geo-mod in source. Geomod means every surface is deformable and breakable, so you could for instance make craters with a rocket launcher. In source, this is currently impossible. It is however possible to make certain objects breakable, although constructing an entire level out of breakable objects would probably be very hard to do, i think because breaking one piece of a wall would make others break too, causing the entire building to collapse at once, generating enourmous cpu load. That's because the source engine isn't made to do this. Geomod is made especially for that.
I'm sure we'll see some walls in single-player HL2 that are especially meant to be broken to provide an alternative route. I also think bullets will pass through certain thin objects without destroying them(a thin metal plate for instance) just like in CS, provided the bullets have enough power to do so.

 

[Cr@zY T3rr0r!$t]

mabey the strider's special gun that can do that (blow through buildings). But rememer, has anyone see Gordon use the Rocet lancher on a wall. no, just that air craft.(a manatie or whatever it's called)
And as said before, Its a design decision, not a technical limitation.

 

[Animal]

I'm sure you could apply the property of wood (destructable) to concrete etc. But this will have to be done in a mod. If this was in the game it would have to limit the story etc. because the player could go through any area of the map they wanted.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You're talking about the difference between world brushes and objects. Objects can be destroyed according to their properties. World brushes cannot - they are compiled into the map and can't be modified in realtime. To be able to do so would require the engine to recalculate the vis and lighting on the fly, which it just can't do.

You can make deformable/destroyable areas of a map, but certainly not the whole map.

 

[Styloid]

You guys should read the valve info thread. It is possible but it won't be used to that extent in the single player because they want their game to
have a story (linear progression). Expect mods to come out with fully deformable terrain.

 

[Gunner]

Oh lord...

 

[Mad_Eejit]

i don't think Red Faction's Geo-mod would work in source and if you apply a destructable property to a concrete wall wouldn't the whole wall be destroyed rather then part of it? (could be wrong here)

It is such a shame that red faction was a badly done game because it may have made other game creaters consider using the Geo-mod technology, which certianly had potential.

 

[Animal]

A little wood cabin would be a cool addition to a map. Imagine in multi if some guy is hiding in there and the other players hurl stuff at it with the manipulator. That would be extremely cool...

 

[Mad_Eejit]

someone would complain that everyone was using a wall hack.

 

[smwScott]

Red Faction 1 wasn't a bad game. The graphics were decent and the geo-mod was awesome, I remember one boss battle with this robot that completely destroyed the entire hangar (thing had a ton of missles and wasnt afraid to constantly dish them out). The second one was total crap, but I enjoyed the first game.

I believe you can apply the destructive property to walls, floors, whatever. But you won't be able to deform terrain. That's really pushing it, it was a big deal for Geo Mod and that was its only technical feat.

 

[Animal]

I liked the rail cannon on Red Faction 1. The slugs for it were huge! And it had x-ray vision!

 

[Flyingdebris]

the first time i played multi with red faction i made it #1 priority to find where they hid the fusion rocket (mini nuke) in the levels and start blasting crazy ass holes all over the map with it. It was awesome

 

[NothingMan]

Re: Re: Physics?

Originally posted by Ro@cH
so you could for instance make craters with a rocket launcher. In source, this is currently impossible.

Said by Gabe
Destructabilty:
Could i make my map completely destructable?

yes

-Defomability:
Could I make a mod where if i shot a rocket at the ground,
the ground would deform as a result of the explosion.
(maybe via displacement mapping)
Or maybe this can be set as a material property?

yes

Posted here.

Didn't actually say that you can blow through walls with explosives, but it sounds like it (I assume Gabe wasn't talking about making an entire map out of just wood so you could smash through it...). As for craters, yes, yes it can...

Also, if you look in the Ant Lion video, once he gets near the turrets, you can see bullet holes form on that side of the dividers. You can't see through them, but the decal from the bullet passing through it, is visible.

 

[lambda^2]

Thanks NothingMan, I was looking for those
And Ro@ch, I didn't say that the first two replies are plain wrong, but it's just not okay when someone asks a qualified question to say "no." without any explanation, 'no' or 'yes' are totally senseless comments unless you back them up somehow; and the one who asked the question most likely is a little pissed.

On the topic, in the shaky-cam-600 mb E3 vid, doesnt the speaker point out that "the world in Half Life 2 is very dynamic", while the ground somehow deforms? (I can't understand it completely, the sound is not the best quality). Also you can see waves in some screenshots - I don't mean the bumpmapped ripples on the flat surface, I mean that the whole "ocean" or whatever has big waves (which, in the game, of course have to move all the time). Isn't that also some kind of deformable terrain?
(Edit:

)

 

[Xtasy0]

Re: Re: Re: Physics?

Originally posted by NothingMan
Posted here.

Didn't actually say that you can blow through walls with explosives, but it sounds like it (I assume Gabe wasn't talking about making an entire map out of just wood so you could smash through it...). As for craters, yes, yes it can...

Also, if you look in the Ant Lion video, once he gets near the turrets, you can see bullet holes form on that side of the dividers. You can't see through them, but the decal from the bullet passing through it, is visible.

a small decal from a single bullet and a hole in a wall as a way of escape are very different.

yes you could create your own map that is fully destructable, but the question was regarding HL2 (the game, not the engine) and in the game, not every wall will be destructable, you wont be able to randomly start blasting holes in walls for an alternate escape route.

sure if you make your own map you can go crazy and make a house out of 100,000 pieces of wood and blast it away plank by plank, or you can use other materials and make them breakable.

but the answer is still no, HL2 doesnt have geomod technology, but yes you could simulate it yourself in your own maps if you really want to take the time.

 

[FoB_Ed]

It was gabe talking. He said

"The world in half life 2 is very dynamic, each surface can have it's displacement map altered dynamically, along with it's collision model."

 

[Animal]

OMG that screenshot is teh shit. I didn't notice the guys on the boat at first, looks like they are trying to signal you!

 

[koopa]

When Gabe says you can make a map completely destructable, I don't think I believe him (!). You might be able to make a deformable map, but as for bashing through walls (without faking it) is past the reach of even Source. AFAIK it's still based upon a big static world.

 

[Cyber$nake]

What he said :cheese:

 

[Animal]

Who cares, it wasn't really useful in Red Faction anyway, although it would be good for realism terms i suppose...

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by koopa
When Gabe says you can make a map completely destructable, I don't think I believe him (!). You might be able to make a deformable map, but as for bashing through walls (without faking it) is past the reach of even Source. AFAIK it's still based upon a big static world.

well, you need the box for the world, and thats not breakable, but anything inside that you can apply breakable properties to it. that doesnt guarantee it will break realisticly. like if you have a brush as a wall, and apply wood texture and make it breakable then fire a rocket at it, chances are the whole wall will break, rather than blowing a hole. in order to do a hole i believe you'd need to make a seperate brush for the hole and the rest of the wall and then swap them at the time of impact so the hole gets blown out, its definitely not going to be dynamic like geomod tech.

 

[freddythefrog]

well then , anyone knows how geomod system worked? Was the world made of special kind of brushes or what technical tricks did they use?



oh, and btw, about using displacement maps for deforming terrain: it worked in other games (such as sacrifice), those used displacement maps as well to make volcanos appear ecetera.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by freddythefrog
well then , anyone knows how geomod system worked? Was the world made of special kind of brushes or what technical tricks did they use?

Not sure exactly what they used, but there are various ways of doing boolean operations on level geometry. To knock a hole in the wall, you make a fake 'hole' out of polygons, then subtract it from the level (also known as CSG, constructive solid geometry).

 

[Logic]

Yep, that sounds about right. The geomod system had to do a lot of calculation and re-creation of geometry that made it quite slow (big explosions would often cause jittery pauses).

Geomod style destruction isn't a technical capability of source. It is, in fact, a technical limitation. I'm sure if Valve really wanted to they could implement it into source, but that would be a lot of work. The technology isn't in source as it is. It's currently up to the mapper to create destructable areas or objects - red faction style map deformation can not be calculated dynamically.

With that said, surfaces can have their geometry altered in a "height-mapped" style manner - meaning you can make surfaces that will dent or raise\lower (as seen in the e3 demonstration) but this technology doesn't allow for the creation of holes like in red faction.

 

[Ro@cH]

Exactly. When will people understand the difference between height/bump/specular/whatever mapping and other technologies like geomod...

 

[Typhon]

roach, bump/specular mapping has absolutely nothing to do with height mapping. bump and specular maps are dynamic textures that cause the appearance of depth. height mapping actually moves the polygons up and down. Logic's point, and he's right, is that height mapping only allows vertices to be moved, not deleted. Hence holes cannot be formed.

Go download the 600mb e3 vid from fileplanet or something, the height mapping is shown very clearly.

 

[Guest]

you know what i want. I want to be able to walk into that room on the movie barricade, and (for example) put a line of rounds across the ceiling.. then hear the THUD of a combine hitting the floor.

But i might get to do that, what i won't get to do is put a round through that same wall.. then use it as a peep hole to spy on whats next... now that would be badass.

 

[Ro@cH]

Yes but height mapping is also done by creating a 'map', similar to a bump map, that contains the data necessary to adjust the vertices' positions. it's like a bump map but with coördinates instead of gray-shades.

 

[Typhon]

quatidwhatever, that sounds about right. its easy to let bullets through (not completely, of course, but realistically) just like it was done in CS (though maybe more realistically than that). but holes would require something exponentially more difficult.

 

[Guest]

Yeah i know, thats why i know i'm not getting it, plus if you could make these holes then logic would tell you, you can blast the wall, and then we are back to this whole geomod whatever bullshit everything can be destroyed stuff

 

[Animal]

Holes would be amazing, you could imagine just shooting through a building with a chain gun or something!

Height-map deformation is ok though, i remember in sacrifice it had the desired effect, especially if it has the right decal applied, for example a crater.

 

[Guest]

just imagine the multiplayer sniping possibilities!! .. now image the sniping abilities with a realism mod? as in all real guns etc. I can just image sitting up in some broken ass building pearing out of some small holes i've made and then unleash my m1 garand (dod2?!?!?) on some dudes running away, to see ragdoll take effect and have some tumble off the bridge.

my god i am going to cum

 

[Logic]

You really didn't need to say that.