Prostitutes: GTA "normalises violence against hookers"

[CptStern]

On this fifth annual "International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers," we remind you to tip -- but not to kill -- your service providers. According to The Toronto Sun, Anastasia Kuzyk of the Sex Workers' Alliance of Toronto believes that games like Grand Theft Auto feed into the "subculture of allowing the violence to continue," and that violence "against sex workers should not be normalized, but it is." Although she doesn't mention GTA by name in the quote, it's the only well-known game we can think of that lets you "run down prostitutes and kill them and beat them up and take their money."

what's next? Pedestrians for the Saftey of Pedestrians Alliance of North America complaining GTA normalizes violence against pedestrians? because that's just as a valid a point ....I think hookers need to stfu, specific to blaming gta because that's the least of their worries ..I mean hookers are killed in novels, movies, comic books every freakin day why dont they blame them? why not blame Jack the Ripper for planting the idea that slicing up hookers might be fun on generation upon generation of unsuspecting would-be hooker murderers


people in the general public need to stfu when it comes to violence in video games because for the most part they havent a clue as to what they're talking about

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/12/17/sex-worker-alliance-gta-normalizes-violence-against-sex-workers/

btw the Toronto Sun is modeled after the british tabloid/newspaper of the same name ..it's targeted reader level is grade 6

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Hookers need to stfu and get a proper job.

 

[kirovman]

Violence against hookers was normal for me before GTA.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

"Is Stern gonna hafta choke a bitch??"

 

[Lt. Drebin]

It's GTA...it's an easy target.

Further...always hilarious to hear hookers dish out some moral guidance. STFU.

 

[mortiz-Redux]

GTA normalizes violence against mobsters...ban it!

 

[Raziaar]

Hey man... in GTA I can run down ANYBODY I ****ing want and steal their money. Prostitutes don't get any special treatment.

 

[Krynn72]

Hookers normalize giving STDs to horny men. I AM ENRAGED!

 

[repiV]

They should stop complaining. Usually that kind of hourly rate is associated only with world-class specialist knowledge or the threat of mortal danger.
The people who are really being exploited in this situation are the people who use hookers...if I were a woman, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[lePobz]

I don't kill the hookers, I kill the pimps. Hoe liberation ftw.

 

[CptStern]

in between visits to the hospital for "injuries sustained while on the job", not too mention trips to the drug store for anti-std drugs, coming up with creative ways of hiding track marks and best of all having to tell your child why you have "no fixed address" as your home address ...ya besides that prostitution is like a walk to the bank

 

[repiV]

in between visits to the hospital for "injuries sustained while on the job", not too mention trips to the drug store for anti-std drugs, coming up with creative ways of hiding track marks and best of all having to tell your child why you have "no fixed address" as your home address ...ya besides that prostitution is like a walk to the bank

A good friend of mine studies at Cambridge university. She also makes ?200 an hour as a hooker in her spare time - a job that she loves and rakes in an absolute fortune doing, and she has never come to harm as a result.
The "oppressed prostitute" is a myth, pure and simple. At least, it doesn't apply to people who choose to be hookers - a sizeable number of ordinary women amongst them.
Personally I think there is a certain level of arrogance attached to anyone who thinks they're worth that kind of money for a shag.

 

[CptStern]

A good friend of mine studies at Cambridge university. She also makes ?200 an hour as a hooker in her spare time - a job that she loves and rakes in an absolute fortune doing, and she has never come to harm as a result.
The "oppressed prostitute" is a myth, pure and simple. At least, it doesn't apply to people who choose to be hookers - a sizeable number of ordinary women amongst them.
Personally I think there is a certain level of arrogance attached to anyone who thinks they're worth that kind of money for a shag.

street walkers and "escorts" are two different things ..and your friend doesnt make a demographic, her experiences are not typical

Personally I think there is a certain level of arrogance attached to anyone who thinks they're worth that kind of money for a shag.

supply and demand ..isnt capitalism grand?

 

[VirusType2]

I don't kill the hookers, I kill the pimps. Hoe liberation ftw.

Captain SaveaHoe? All hookers should be run over with a stolen vehicle.

 

[repiV]

street walkers and "escorts" are two different things ..and your friend doesnt make a demographic, her experiences are not typical

Her experiences are typical of "escorts". Her friends from the business that I've met are just women who aren't ashamed to do what they want in life, and make massive money doing so while the rest of us suckers work ourselves to the bone to get a fraction of the income.
Can't fault that.

Likewise, the problems of street walkers are not caused by prostitution. They simply turn to prostitution because it's the best solution to their problems that is available to them. Problems that they probably caused themselves.
Conventional wisdom has this completely the wrong way round - if they couldn't walk the streets, they'd probably be in an even worse position.

Motorcycle couriers are far more likely to come to harm or die doing their jobs (serious injury is a regular occurence), and unless you're really, really good, the pay just about covers the expenses involved. Plus, it's a miserable job throughout the winter and you have to work 10 hours a day to make any money.
I don't see anyone taking pity on them, even though it's the most dangerous job in the country.

supply and demand ..isnt capitalism grand?

Yes.

 

[CptStern]

Her experiences are typical of "escorts". Her friends from the business that I've met are just women who aren't ashamed to do what they want in life, and make massive money doing so while the rest of us suckers work ourselves to the bone to get a fraction of the income.
Can't fault that.

Likewise, the problems of street walkers are not caused by prostitution. They simply turn to prostitution because it's the best solution to their problems that is available to them. Problems that they probably caused themselves.
Conventional wisdom has this completely the wrong way round - if they couldn't walk the streets, they'd probably be in an even worse position.

Motorcycle couriers are far more likely to come to harm or die doing their jobs (serious injury is a regular occurence), and unless you're really, really good, the pay just about covers the expenses involved. Plus, it's a miserable job throughout the winter and you have to work 10 hours a day to make any money.
I don't see anyone taking pity on them, even though it's the most dangerous job in the country.

tell that to the 50 women murdered by a pig farmer

and, apples to oranges, how many of those bike couriers were murdered/assaulted in comparison?

 

[repiV]

tell that to the 50 women murdered by a pig farmer, how many couriers have been murdered by pig farmers?

and, apples to oranges, how many of those bike couriers were murdered/assaulted in comparison?

So danger only matters if it's at the end of a knife or fist?

I fail to see any relevance whatsoever in your post. Social workers get assaulted on a regular basis - far more regularly than do prostitutes, I would imagine, but I don't hear any cries of "injustice".

Incidentally, I worked as a courier for a week, and that was more than enough for me. Tearing around London 10 hours a day carries so many inherent risks as it is, but you have to take insane chances with your safety just to get paid enough money to survive, you spend lots of time wondering where the **** you're going because the London road network makes no sense even to people who've lived here all their lives, clients treat you like a second-class citizen and there's just something extremely demoralising about putting on your drenched rain gear in the morning that's had the benefit of a 10-hour soaking the previous day.
And it's an extremely tiring and relentless job. Exhaustion+motorbike+London traffic=dangerous combination.

 

[CptStern]

So danger only matters if it's at the end of a knife or fist?

yes ..especially when we're specifically talking about violence not accidents .. ..but you know that

I fail to see any relevance whatsoever in your post. Social workers get assaulted on a regular basis - far more regularly than do prostitutes, I would imagine, but I don't hear any cries of "injustice".

as a former social worker/teacher who's been hit a few times I can say without doubt that that is an apple to oranges comparison ..first of all we are rarely alone, second of all it's rarely sexual in nature; rape rarely accompanies assault, at least in the context of assault on social workers, murder is even more rare ..preyed upon by serial killers is virtually non-existent

Incidentally, I worked as a courier for a week, and that was more than enough for me. Tearing around London 10 hours a day carries so many inherent risks as it is, but you have to take insane chances with your safety just to get paid enough money to survive, you spend lots of time wondering where the **** you're going because the London road network makes no sense even to people who've lived here all their lives, clients treat you like a second-class citizen and there's just something extremely demoralising about putting on your drenched rain gear in the morning that's had the benefit of a 10-hour soaking the previous day.
And it's an extremely tiring and relentless job. Exhaustion+motorbike+London traffic=dangerous combination.

ok but accident =/= intentional assault/battery/robbery/murder

 

[repiV]

yes ..especially when we're specifically talking about violence not accidents .. ..but you know that

How on earth is danger only relevant when it results from violence?
You've provided no justification for this argument, and speaking as someone still suffering from the results of an accident that I would describe as violent, I'd rather be assaulted any day of the week. I will never completely recover - the metalwork in my leg will preclude me from certain occupations, and I can expect to have arthritis by the time I'm 30.
I have a friend who used to be a soldier - you know, his business being extreme violence, and he gave up couriering because it's too dangerous - which also throws your theory into question.

as a former social worker/teacher who's been hit a few times I can say without doubt that that is an apple to oranges comparison ..first of all we are rarely alone, second of all it's rarely sexual in nature; rape rarely accompanies assault, at least in the context of assault on social workers, murder is even more rare ..preyed upon by serial killers is virtually non-existent

Yet you assume that prostitutes are regularly assaulted, raped and preyed on by serial killers. You have no evidence whatsoever to support this claim.

ok but accident =/= intentional assault/battery/robbery/murder

Well, no. I'd rather be robbed, assaulted or possibly even battered than be involved in another serious bike accident.

 

[CptStern]

How on earth is danger only relevant when it results from violence?

when it is a conversation pertaining to violence at the work place ..repiv, this is what you do every single time ..we were talking about how dangerous prostitution was in terms of assault/murder not whether falling down a flight of stairs or getting hit by a taxi is part of the danger, I was specific to violence

You've provided no justification for this argument, and speaking as someone still suffering from the results of an accident that I would describe as violent,

ahhh but it wasnt as a result of beng a courier now was it? your analogy is meaningless

I'd rather be assaulted any day of the week.

how about strangled and then uncermoniously dumped for the pigs/rats to nibble on? or chopped into pieces and stored in a freezer? is that a reality for bike couriers? please cite examples

I will never completely recover - the metalwork in my leg will preclude me from certain occupations, and I can expect to have arthritis by the time I'm 30.

sorry to hear that

I have a friend who used to be a soldier - you know, his business being extreme violence, and he gave up couriering because it's too dangerous - which also throws your theory into question.

apples to oranges, was britian at war at the time? was there any danger of being shipped to iraq/afghanistan


surprisingly enough soldering is quite safe during peacetime ...but i thought that was obvious

Yet you assume that prostitutes are regularly assaulted, raped and preyed on by serial killers. You have no evidence whatsoever to support this claim.

no, I gave the impression that they can be raped robbed assaulted or preyed upon by serial killers, they dont all have to be perpetrated by a single person, as sure as hell didnt phrase it that way ..

Well, no. I'd rather be robbed, assaulted or possibly even battered than be involved in another serious bike accident.

you forgot murdered ..is that where you draw the line?

 

[Qonfused]

Another thread robbed of meaningful discussion.

 

[CptStern]

Another thread robbed of meaningful discussion.

the urge to post the obvious was overwhelming wasnt it?

 

[Qonfused]

Yeah.

 

[repiV]

when it is a conversation pertaining to violence at the work place ..repiv, this is what you do every single time ..we were talking about how dangerous prostitution was in terms of assault/murder not whether falling down a flight of stairs or getting hit by a taxi is part of the danger, I was specific to violence

I never saw that distinction - and I don't see the relevance in making that distinction, either.
Besides which, I've been the victim of attempted murder on the road on multiple occassions. There are a sizeable number of sick and twisted bastards on the roads who purposely try to harm bikers, and many more who do so out of sheer negligence.

ahhh but it wasnt as a result of beng a courier now was it? your analogy is meaningless

What does it matter if it was the result of being a courier? A bike accident is a bike accident. Being hit by a car would likely result in very similar injuries to those I sustained - broken/smashed up legs.
And believe me, there are few experiences more violent than being thrown from a bike at high speed into a solid object.

how about strangled and then uncermoniously dumped for the pigs/rats to nibble on? or chopped into pieces and stored in a freezer? is that a reality for bike couriers? please cite examples

It's not a reality for hookers, so that's rather irrelevant.

sorry to hear that

Thanks...

apples to oranges, was britian at war at the time? was there any danger of being shipped to iraq/afghanistan

Britain is always at war, it just isn't usually plastered all over the news. He served in Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq and Sierra Leone.

surprisingly enough soldering is quite safe during peacetime ...but i thought that was obvious

Britain has been at war every year since WW2 except 1966. Peacetime is an alien concept to the British military.

no, I gave the impression that they can be raped robbed assaulted or preyed upon by serial killers, they dont all have to be perpetrated by a single person, as sure as hell didnt phrase it that way ..

Yes, they can be - as can anyone. You haven't demonstrated that they are at significantly higher risk of these things than anyone else, and from my experiences I have no reason to believe that they are.

you forgot murdered ..is that where you draw the line?

Well, obviously I'd rather break some bones than be killed...if the hypothetical accident involved my death, then clearly I'd rather go out with a bang doing something I love.

 

[CptStern]

I never saw that distinction - and I don't see the relevance in making that distinction, either.
Besides which, I've been the victim of attempted murder on the road on multiple occassions. There are a sizeable number of sick and twisted bastards on the roads who purposely try to harm bikers, and many more who do so out of sheer negligence.

again apples to oranges, your attempted murder isnt the same as being strangled to unconciousness or beaten within an inch of your life

What does it matter if it was the result of being a courier? A bike accident is a bike accident.

an accident by definition is not intentional

Being hit by a car would likely result in very similar injuries to those I sustained - broken/smashed up legs.
And believe me, there are few experiences more violent than being thrown from a bike at high speed into a solid object.

again accidents, is rape a real danger to your profession? is getting a std directly related to your former profession? apples and oranges ..i could easily point out that there's been several deaths/injuries involving graphic designers or teachers ..is that typical for grapic designers and teachers? hell no

It's not a reality for hookers, so that's rather irrelevant.

for 50 prostitutes in and around vancouver it was a reality ...again how many couriers are preyed upon by serial killers? robert pickton isnt the only example

Britain has been at war every year since WW2 except 1966. Peacetime is an alien concept to the British military.

irregardless that is not the same as being actively engaged in combat and being in harms way or on the front lines ..street walkers by definition are the front lines

Yes, they can be - as can anyone. You haven't demonstrated that they are at significantly higher risk of these things than anyone else, and from my experiences I have no reason to believe that they are.

ok ...

Foremost among the health risks of prostitution is premature death. In a recent US study of almost 2000 prostitutes followed over a 30-year period, by far the most common causes of death were homicide, suicide, drug- and alcohol-related problems, HIV infection and accidents ? in that order. The homicide rate among active female prostitutes was 17 times higher than that of the age-matched general female population

17 times ..that's significantly higher

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/2/109

Well, obviously I'd rather break some bones than be killed...if the hypothetical accident involved my death, then clearly I'd rather go out with a bang doing something I love.

i doubt many prostitutes would share that sentiment

 

[repiV]

again apples to oranges, your attempted murder isnt the same as being strangled to unconciousness or beaten within an inch of your life

How is it different?
Some chavs once tried to knock me off (steered sideways into my path) when I overtook them at near 100mph. If they'd have succeeded, given the fact that the side of the road and beyond was lined with tall trees, my remains would be far more mangled than in either of your scenarios. You might even find some severed limbs scattered about the place. The injuries involved can be absolutely obscene - decapitation, amputation, impaling...
Furthermore, my death would be recoreded as being the result of "rider error" and the killer would suffer no consequences. Noone would ever know what really happened.

an accident by definition is not intentional

How exactly is an injury worse just because it was intentional? You still suffer the same. That makes only slightly more sense than the hospital receptionist who thought nothing of my injury when she thought it was the result of a car crash, yet when she found it I came off a bike oh suddenly bikes OMG they're so dangerous.

again accidents, is rape a real danger to your profession? is getting a std directly related to your former profession? apples and oranges ..i could easily point out that there's been several deaths/injuries involving graphic designers or teachers ..is that typical for grapic designers and teachers? hell no

So...you would rather die than be raped or get an STD? Neither of which are "facts of life" for hookers, by any means.

for 50 prostitutes in and around vancouver it was a reality ...again how many couriers are preyed upon by serial killers? robert pickton isnt the only example

You're not exactly convincing me of the extreme dangers involved in prostitution by telling me about 50 people that were killed. 50 bikers are killed in the UK on a monthly basis.

Britain is always at war, it just isn't usually plastered all over the news. He served in Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq and Sierra Leone.

irregardless that is not the same as being actively engaged in combat and being in harms way

Of course he was actively engaged in combat and in harms way, on numerous occassions - he served in five separate warzones as a rifleman!

17 times ..that's significantly higher

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/2/109

Yes it is - however the study was conducted in a country where prostitution is black market and underground. I doubt it's representative of the industry as a whole.

i doubt many prostitutes would share that sentiment

Then they're free to earn their money some other way.

 

[CptStern]

sigh ..I cant believe I have to explain why being raped/assaulted is worse than being in an accident ..again accidents are not intentional, trying to strangle someone to death is ..you're just splitting hairs again repiv

dont have much time but this stuck out

Yes it is - however the study was conducted in a country where prostitution is black market and underground. I doubt it's representative of the industry as a whole.

you mean canada? please read the article before commenting, it clearly identifies a two tier system ..one that skirts legality and the other that is plain illegal ..guess which one is the most dangerous ..oh and the majority of the victems are underaged

 

[repiV]

sigh ..I cant believe I have to explain why being raped/assaulted is worse than being in an accident ..again accidents are not intentional, trying to strangle someone to death is ..you're just splitting hairs again repiv

Actually, the guy who tried to knock me off was doing so very much intentionally. I thought I made that clear. It's happened on nearly a dozen occassions, although in that instance the consequences would have been the worst.
Also, you haven't clarified how exactly the results of an incident are worse because it was intentional. I don't buy that.
Finally, I was sexually abused throughout my childhood and I don't buy into your point of view that being raped/assaulted is necessarily worse than being in an accident. Having experienced all of the above, I hope I'm suitably qualified to make that judgement in your eyes.
The damage from abuse can be long-lasting, but ultimately the effect you let it have on you is under your control. I'm over it now, as you might have guessed by the fact that I'm not particularly bothered about mentioning it here.
Nonetheless, I could have very easily fallen slightly differently and hit my back instead of my leg and I'd be paralysed from the neck down - and there's nothing I'd be able to do about it. Or my chest and I'd die of fatal damage to my vital organs and internal bleeding. It's pure luck - I got off about as lightly as I could have expected. The paramedic said that an angel was watching over me that day.

dont have much time but this stuck out


you mean canada? please read the article before commenting, it clearly identifies a two tier system ..one that skirts legality and the other that is plain illegal ..guess which one is the most dangerous ..oh and the majority of the victems are underaged

The statistical part says:

In a recent US study of almost 2000 prostitutes followed over a 30-year period, by far the most common causes of death were homicide, suicide, drug- and alcohol-related problems, HIV infection and accidents ? in that order. The homicide rate among active female prostitutes was 17 times higher than that of the age-matched general female population.2

So, that part - the 17 times higher - refers to the USA.

Furthermore, if the majority of the victims are underage - yet underage prostitutes will constitute a small minority of the total - then that's pretty much proof that these risks only really apply to the illegal underbelly of prostitution.
That's not an argument against prostitution as a career, it's an argument against organised crime and prostitution laws.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

people in the general public need to stfu when it comes to violence in video games because for the most part they havent a clue as to what they're talking about

However, as long as violence is considered a form of entertainment, alongside a lacking education to the better and America's people continually misunderstanding the uses of a good college education, it will be more likely that certain idividuals blur the lines between right and wrong, democracy and anarchy.

Violence in video games can be a big problem -- whats more of a problem is the parents and teachers of our communities who are, above all, apathetic.

 

[Takekaze]

GTA normalises violence against hookers...

And playing Civilization (all parts) makes me want to take over the world, right?

 

[Asknoone]

GTA normalises violence against hookers...

And playing Civilization (all parts) makes me want to take over the world, right?

/gently pushes world domination plans under the bed

 

[Takekaze]

/gently pushes world domination plans under the bed

You'll laugh, but there was a politician in Germany who said that FPS help learning how to shoot a gun... He said something along the lines of "with CS people train how to kill" and how to shoot guns. Now, having handled real guns myself I wonder how that would work.

And another one mixed up WoW with Battlefield 42 (that idiot).


On the other hand, I remember that just a few weeks ago a couple of teenagers in Japan copied Ocean's Twelve (and were eventually arrested).

 

[99.vikram]

He said something along the lines of "with CS people train how to kill" and how to shoot guns. Now, having handled real guns myself I wonder how that would work.

Yeah, snipers "drag" and microzoom in real life.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

GTA normalises violence against hookers...

And playing Civilization (all parts) makes me want to take over the world, right?

While I recognize your point, it actually kinda does for me. I already have plans for where to establish my missile bases and deployment patterns for my navy, which will be able to travel farther than all others once I build the colossus.