RE: New "Abuse" Photo's

gh0st

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http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/06/navy.prisoner.photos.ap/index.html
Navy: Some SEALs photos show approved tactics

SAN DIEGO, California (AP) -- Preliminary findings of a military inquiry suggest that some of the recently published photographs of Navy special forces capturing detainees in Iraq were taken for legitimate intelligence-gathering purposes and showed commandos using approved procedures, a Navy spokesman said.

The photos, which have drawn a strong reaction in Arab media, also appear to show Navy SEALs sitting or lying on top of hooded and handcuffed detainees in the back of a pickup truck.

Citing the ongoing investigation, a spokesman for the Naval Special Warfare Command in Coronado on Monday declined comment on the pickup truck pictures, which were among 40 images of detainees an Associated Press reporter found on a commercial photo-sharing Web site posted by a woman who said her husband brought them from Iraq.

Senior officers at the SEALs headquarters said other photos are "consistent with the use of tactics, techniques and procedures in the apprehension of detainees," Navy Cmdr. Jeff Bender said.

He cited as an example a photo in which a uniformed man is holding the head of a prisoner to pose him for a picture for "identification purposes." A gun with an attached flashlight is being used to illuminate the detainee's face for the photograph, Bender said.

Taking photos of prisoners for administrative or intelligence purposes is an exception to Navy regulations that generally forbid unofficial photos of prisoners of war.

In another photo, a commando standing with upraised fists next to a detainee is using hand signals to communicate with other troops who do not appear in the image, according to Bender.

The two photos are part of a larger group of mug shots of detainees, whose faces were blacked out in the pictures posted online. Some drip blood, which experts on the law of war said was not by itself a sign of abuse.

It was unclear whether the detainees resisted capture by Navy special forces.

"No one knows what's on the other side of the door," Bender said, adding that the inquiry is ongoing.

Some of the people in the photos have been identified as SEALs, Bender said.

Date stamps on some of the photos suggest they were taken in May 2003, which could make them the earliest evidence of possible abuse or questionable handling of prisoners in Iraq.

The far more brutal practices photographed inside Abu Ghraib prison occurred months later.

It is unclear who took the pictures, which the Navy began investigating after the AP furnished copies to get comment for a story first published Friday.

The photos were widely published in Arab media, including one on the front page of the daily Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram showed three hooded prisoners pressed against one another on a floor with what appear to be white sheets wrapped around their torsos.

The photo caption read: "Signs of a new scandal."

ouch... served.
 
so, basically you are approving turtor because bush and his gang say it's ok .. good :)
 
hasan said:
so, basically you are approving turtor because bush and his gang say it's ok .. good :)
i dont approve of "turtor", i approve of legitimate means of information extraction. since we actually have these crazy things known as "trials" in this country, im sure more information will come to light. especially since as i said earlier, a lot of this is simply bullshit (such as the gun aimed at the prisoners head, etc)

since you have no background information on what happened i suggest you try and use the old "innocent until proven guilty" thang, or shut the hell up.
 
Well, I know for a FACT that sitting on a person is a well-known method used even by police forces to disable an unruly person.
 
He_Who_Is_Steve said:
Well, I know for a FACT that sitting on a person is a well-known method used even by police forces to disable an unruly person. (
actually... it is. i dont know if the "(" meant sarcasm or something.
 
i approve of legitimate means of information extraction.
you approve turtore but you give it another name ...

since you have no background information on what happened i suggest you try and use the old "innocent until proven guilty" thang, or shut the hell up.
I know a hell of a lot more than you think you can ever know
pfft .. US is already proven guilty, that's out of the question.
The question is who are the detainees, they are probably ordinary people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
In another photo, a commando standing with upraised fists next to a detainee is using hand signals to communicate with other troops who do not appear in the image, according to Bender.

Oh, you mean this?

I wonder what he's communicating? "Hey, dude, this is, like, far out, man!"
 
hasan said:
you approve turtore but you give it another name ...


I know a hell of a lot more than you think you can ever know
pfft .. US is already proven guilty, that's out of the question.
The question is who are the detainees, they are probably ordinary people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
for ****s sake its spelled "torture", lets just get that out of the way.

US is already proven guilty? by your logic russia is guilty for stalin, germany is guilty for hitler, iraq guilty for ethnic cleansing, nations guilty for criminals. you cant judge one group of people by the actions of a single person, you of all people should know that. if we used your logic we would have wiped the middle east off the map because of 9/11 and judging your countries on the actions of one.

PROBABLY. thats a keyword, you simply dont know shit about the situation. i dont either, so their innocent until proven guilty, right?

Spartan said:
In another photo, a commando standing with upraised fists next to a detainee is using hand signals to communicate with other troops who do not appear in the image, according to Bender.

Oh, you mean this?

I wonder what he's communicating? "Hey, dude, this is, like, far out, man!"
yes he's using a dergatory hand signal. GUILTY AS CHARGED. i dont see where he's abusing people in that picture. sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

edit: i doubt thats the pic he refers to, he says fistS, not hand.
 
gh0st said:
US is already proven guilty? by your logic russia is guilty for stalin, germany is guilty for hitler, iraq guilty for ethnic cleansing, nations guilty for criminals. you cant judge one group of people by the actions of a single person, you of all people should know that. if we used your logic we would have wiped the middle east off the map because of 9/11 and judging your countries on the actions of one.

Hmm.... Hitler, his friends and most of Germany was embarking on a plan to conquer the world, and you call that "the actions of a single person."
 
you of all people should know that.
ofcourse I do .. duh!
I'm talking about the American occupation .. that's what I always mean when I talk about "America" inthe context of the situation in Iraq.

edit:
if we used your logic we would have wiped the middle east off the map because of 9/11
hmm .. I thought you are already in the process of doing this.
 
hasan said:
hmm .. I thought you are already in the process of doing this.
Who knows...it might even solve everyones problems. ;)
 
we should do torture the way the russians and chinese do it, hook up some electrodes to testicles, and then brainwash em to think we're not torturing them, so they could be like "no , we were having a good time"
 
Hmm.... Hitler, his friends and most of Germany was embarking on a plan to conquer the world, and you call that "the actions of a single person."


Yeah, they were ridding the world of one evil dictator at a time. /sarcasm
 
I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself. Gh0st: the cia is pushing for expansion of the definition of "torture" to preclude certain techniques ...this very fact proves that torture in Iraq is directed by the CIA and the government ...therefore one can conclude that the "bad apples" are in fact just people doing their job ...meteing out torture. There is no room for interpretation: the US is condoning torturing of prisoners. They just prosecute those who take it too far or are caught.


"Former intelligence officials say that lawyers from the C.I.A. and the Justice Department have been involved in intensive discussions in recent months to review the legal basis for some extreme tactics used at those secret centers, including "waterboarding," in which a detainee is strapped down, dunked under water and made to believe that he might be drowned."


source
 
These photos dont show evidence of torture though. That is the point of the thread Besides, this isnt the CIA, it is the Navy.
 
these iraqis are killing their own kids with bombs... do you think they give a shit about our troops from the U.S.? I doubt it... I'd be happy to detain a few Irai prisoners too, and I'd also be smiling about it. Considering we're still trying to get an election going, you'd think they would quit killing our troops. The minute we have a tape of a soldier killing an iraqi then we're the bad guys? I think we should just stop taping and photographing some of this stuff and keep it hush hush, because the public has no idea what it's like for the soldier holding the gun. We have no right judging these soldiers until we have seen and experienced everything they have.
 
Response to tortures in Iraq:
"We have no idea what our boys are going through over there. It's a very tough environment. We should cut them some slack."

Response to a soldier fleeing to Canada:
"GOD DAMMIT WTF. WE SHOULD EXECUTE THIS GUY FOR BEING SUCH A DIRTY COWARD AND THEN DISMEMBER HIM AND MAIL HIS BODY PARTS TO THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE GLOBE JUST SO EVERYBODY CAN SEE WHAT BEING A PUSSY GETS YOU IN LIFE."
 
Response to Fallujah photos.

"These are doctored!!! Go look at the obviously undoctored photos of abuse!!!"

Response to F 9/11-

"Kopel is an extremist, you cannot use his rebuttal!!! Go watch the entirely correct F 9/11 for the true recount of events!!!"

Response to Iraqi soldier testimony-

"All lies by the US, he is a traitor!!! Go look at the lone civilian accusing the US of chemical attacks!!!"
 
seinfeldrules said:
That is the point of the thread Besides, this isnt the CIA, it is the Navy.

exactly my point, it's systematic
 
Torture is a broad subject area. As I've said before I condone it if it is likely the person has valuable info to extract. But only then.

CptStern made a worrying point, they are trying to legalise torture methods. Don't give me that s*it "oo they deserve it they are working for an evil dictator"... they're soliders doing their job and/or what the believe in, they deserve respect, not random abuse.

Also, we've already been shown that Iraqi's ARE being tortured. There's no two ways about it, people have been punished for it, admitted it, and said it's happening all over. Showing photos that don't show people being tortured proves nothing. It's like saying Saddam killed no-one, cuz look, here is a picture of an alive Iraqi.

I worry about America. Bush is a c**t. He's pushing the world in totally the wrong direction.

* Two wars in three years
* About to embark on a third
* Believes he has the right to do what's 'best' for the world
* Allows idiots to ban gay marriage (oh look we've just stepped back 40 years)
* Allows torture to become and acceptable method of extracting onfo (Oh look we've just stepped back a hundred years)
* Uses propaganda and fear tactics to gain support for his cause (back sixty years, perhaps)
* Is not bothered that his country is the leading cause of pollution, and is doing f*ck all about it

All he's doing is ripping down progress and f*cking over countries for his benefit.

No two ways about it, the world would be better off without him and his administration.
 
Oh, what a nice way to illuminate somebodies face.

Man, it's such a shame that all flashlights have guns attached.
 
seinfeldrules said:
What the non abuse?


sys·tem·at·ic: Purposefully regular; methodical

btw this is an example of what the CIA labels "non-abuse"

"Justice Department have been involved in intensive discussions in recent months to review the legal basis for some extreme tactics used at those secret centers, including "waterboarding," in which a detainee is strapped down, dunked under water and made to believe that he might be drowned."


" .....a report by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay about the abuses at Abu Ghraib said the conduct of C.I.A. personnel at the prison was perceived by military officials there as more aggressive than that allowed by the military. The report said the C.I.A.'s conduct had a corrupting influence on military interrogators and contributed to a view among them that it was permissible to exceed strict guidelines for interrogations."

Among the reviews, intelligence officials say, are an examination of what a military investigation described as eight "ghost" detainees who were incarcerated at Abu Ghraib, but who were kept off the prison's roster at the C.I.A.'s request. In one of those cases, in November 2003, a detainee brought to the prison by C.I.A. employees but never formally registered with military guards died at the site, and his body was removed after being wrapped in plastic and packed in ice."



benelovant my ass
 
seinfeldrules said:
Response to Fallujah photos.

"These are doctored!!! Go look at the obviously undoctored photos of abuse!!!"

Response to F 9/11-

"Kopel is an extremist, you cannot use his rebuttal!!! Go watch the entirely correct F 9/11 for the true recount of events!!!"

Response to Iraqi soldier testimony-

"All lies by the US, he is a traitor!!! Go look at the lone civilian accusing the US of chemical attacks!!!"

My examples were to highlight the strange standards you people seem to have, in which torturing people can be forgiven and justified, but refusing to fight in a war you disagree with is worthy of execution.

You, however, did little more than create a liberal smear that had relatively little to do with the topic. Of course, you also had to toss in the obligatory F9/11 thing.

Good work, seinfeld.
 
seinfeldrules said:
These photos dont show evidence of torture though. That is the point of the thread Besides, this isnt the CIA, it is the Navy.

details like that do not matter, they are all part of the evil american empire and must be BLAMED.

after all, we all know that all one has to do to get information out of a resistant militant is simply to say "pretty puuuhhhlease tell us" and they will say everything we want to know.
 
Shad0hawK said:
details like that do not matter, they are all part of the evil american empire and must be BLAMED.

Oh yeah, baby. **** the States.

after all, we all know that all one has to do to get information out of a resistant militant is simply to say "pretty puuuhhhlease tell us" and they will say everything we want to know.

God knows if you're even torturing the right person or if he/she even has the information you want.
 
Shad0hawK said:
details like that do not matter, they are all part of the evil american empire and must be BLAMED.

after all, we all know that all one has to do to get information out of a resistant militant is simply to say "pretty puuuhhhlease tell us" and they will say everything we want to know.

so ..in other words you're justifing the use of torture? but I thought you were there to "help"?
 
The paradox of torture is that when you torture someone long enough, he'll tell you just about anything to make it stop. So how can you even know that you're getting the right information?
 
too many ppl are hept up on the word "torture" ...you make it sound like midieval times when ppl were strapped to a bed and had theyre limbs torn from the sockets one by one....lets say a bunch of militant rebels are holding 2 of our men hostage and are planning to kill them...but we dont know where they are....but we did catch one of the rebels...now..are you just gonna let your fellow soldier and brother die? or are you gonna find the means to get those soldiers home safely to their family and loved ones....id like to see your decision in the heat of battle on this one
 
ryanmw said:
too many ppl are hept up on the word "torture" ...you make it sound like midieval times when ppl were strapped to a bed and had theyre limbs torn from the sockets one by one....lets say a bunch of militant rebels are holding 2 of our men hostage and are planning to kill them...but we dont know where they are....but we did catch one of the rebels...now..are you just gonna let your fellow soldier and brother die? or are you gonna find the means to get those soldiers home safely to their family and loved ones....id like to see your decision in the heat of battle on this one

How is this even remotely similar to that situation?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?
 
Don't worry absinthe, I'm sure ryanmw will come up with an elaborate explanation for those.
 
Torture is a broad subject area. As I've said before I condone it if it is likely the person has valuable info to extract. But only then.

See, the US Soldier uses an obvious rank system that can either be identified on the front chest or arm badge of a Uniform. An Insurgent ... well, dresses up like he's dealing out Persian Rugs, and, and he tries to make it obvious, that he's not important ... that is, before he shoots you as you assumingly walk away believing your safe.

It does make our problems a little worse off.

CptStern made a worrying point, they are trying to legalise torture methods. Don't give me that s*it "oo they deserve it they are working for an evil dictator"... they're soliders doing their job and/or what the believe in, they deserve respect, not random abuse.

I made that same point to my mother and father when the photos surfaced. Heck, I knew what it was before Jon Stewart got a hold of it.

I think thats why Guantanamo Bay, is where its at now.

Also, we've already been shown that Iraqi's ARE being tortured. There's no two ways about it, people have been punished for it, admitted it, and said it's happening all over. Showing photos that don't show people being tortured proves nothing. It's like saying Saddam killed no-one, cuz look, here is a picture of an alive Iraqi.

True.

I worry about America. Bush is a c**t. He's pushing the world in totally the wrong direction.

He's not pushing the world anywhere. The world is a big boy, it can do it all by itself.

However, if you want a good push ...

* Two wars in three years

Actually, Afghanistan was nessecary, and not ill-placed considering Osama Bin Laden was there.

Iraq on the other hand ... its just one technical, unruley, and odd war.

* About to embark on a third

Proof?

* Believes he has the right to do what's 'best' for the world

No, whats best for Ammmerica.

If you feel the need to act like Americans, then by all means, please do so.

* Allows idiots to ban gay marriage (oh look we've just stepped back 40 years)

Indeed, we have. Its too bad.

I was hoping to march on Washington. :p

* Allows torture to become and acceptable method of extracting onfo (Oh look we've just stepped back a hundred years)

The US does it too Iraqi's -- the Iraqi's do it to us ... The Russians did it to Chechen Rebels, the Chechen Rebels did it to them. The Chinese did it to their Muslim extracts, the Muslim Extracts did it to them. The Germans did to Slovakians, Slovakian extremists did it back to them. The Israeli's did to the Palestinians, the Palestenians did to the Israelis. Jordon did it to Lebanonese terrorists, the Lebanonese terrorists did it to them.

Its acceptable all over the place. Its even happening now in Korea.

* Uses propaganda and fear tactics to gain support for his cause (back sixty years, perhaps)

Oh, everything's propaganda. You and me are tools to certain sides, much rather then free citizens.

* Is not bothered that his country is the leading cause of pollution, and is doing f*ck all about it

America is the theory of a Stereotypical Fat Tolkien Teenager.

America is the leading cause of pollution, the Fat Tolkien Teenager, is the leading cause for Fart gas. Both stink, distract us, and if enough is enhaled, it does become bad for our health and thinking.

If enough is output, for say America, which would be the atmosphere, or for the Fat Kid, which for say, is on a bus crowded with middle-school children, everyone wants to jump the **** out and get a clean whiff of air before they gag ...

:D

No two ways about it, the world would be better off without him and his administration.

If only 9/11 had'nt occured.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
The US does it too Iraqi's -- the Iraqi's do it to us ... The Russians did it to Chechen Rebels, the Chechen Rebels did it to them. The Chinese did it to their Muslim extracts, the Muslim Extracts did it to them. The Germans did to Slovakians, Slovakian extremists did it back to them. The Israeli's did to the Palestinians, the Palestenians did to the Israelis. Jordon did it to Lebanonese terrorists, the Lebanonese terrorists did it to them.

Its acceptable all over the place. Its even happening now in Korea.

By that logic, rape is acceptable because it's happening everywhere.
 
However, by your logic, Goatse is acceptable and not to be disgusted with, because its apparently happened only a few times.

Obviously you missed the point -- the U.S., is'int the only one whose done, or currently has commited torturings.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Obviously you missed the point -- the U.S., is'int the only one whose done, or currently has commited torturings.

That hardly makes it more acceptable. And it's especially bad for the US because it constantly portrays itself as the beacon of democracy, human rights and peace.
 
sys·tem·at·ic: Purposefully regular; methodical

btw this is an example of what the CIA labels "non-abuse"

"Justice Department have been involved in intensive discussions in recent months to review the legal basis for some extreme tactics used at those secret centers, including "waterboarding," in which a detainee is strapped down, dunked under water and made to believe that he might be drowned."


" .....a report by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay about the abuses at Abu Ghraib said the conduct of C.I.A. personnel at the prison was perceived by military officials there as more aggressive than that allowed by the military. The report said the C.I.A.'s conduct had a corrupting influence on military interrogators and contributed to a view among them that it was permissible to exceed strict guidelines for interrogations."

Among the reviews, intelligence officials say, are an examination of what a military investigation described as eight "ghost" detainees who were incarcerated at Abu Ghraib, but who were kept off the prison's roster at the C.I.A.'s request. In one of those cases, in November 2003, a detainee brought to the prison by C.I.A. employees but never formally registered with military guards died at the site, and his body was removed after being wrapped in plastic and packed in ice."



benelovant my ass

Stern + Absinthe, this isnt about Abu Gharib. It seems you have a problem reading the first post in a topic. I think myself and most others have already denounced the Abu Gharib tatics about 101320123 times.

My examples were to highlight the strange standards you people seem to have, in which torturing people can be forgiven and justified, but refusing to fight in a war you disagree with is worthy of execution.
So were mine, did they skip the reading comprehension part of 3rd grade for you, maybe you were absent on those days.
 
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